Spending two talents on this is very cruel, methinks. If they were combined into a single talent, I'm pretty sure that the rogue could better stomach the loss of a talent. While being able to cast true strike is nice, as is dispelling strike, spending a talent to cast cantrips alone is kind of like making the wizard spend a feat for his familiar.
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I think that changing Minor Magic and Major Magic to be a single ability is a good idea... maybe if you can choose a 1st-level spell to use 2/day, or a 0-level spell to use 4/day?
Why not have minor magic allow a 0-level spell a number of times per day equal to 3 + the rogue's Charisma modifer?
You could have major magic equal to 1 + the rogue's Charisma modifier as well.
They also need to be full caster level. (I'm away from my PDF right now, so I can't check, but I think they're half caster level.)
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I'd agree completely with that... except that then there would be rogues who could use spells like shield more times per day than a sorcerer could at higher levels. Since most rogues (in my experience) have a high Cha score to begin with (14 and usually higher if you allow a point buy), with the addition of enhancement and inherent bonuses, could get out of control. I can just picture a rogue casting shield at the beginning of 6 fights a day at higher levels... and usually that would be all of the fights for that day.
That shoots down my image of a rogue who dabbles in magic, to be sure.
Okay, I'd suggest a 0-level spell 3 + Cha mod times per day for Minor Magic, and a 1st level spell 1/day for Major magic, and leave it at that.
Spending two talents on this is very cruel, methinks.
I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that rogues get a zillion talents. Well, 10. But 10 is still a lot, and some of the (minor) talents are pretty weak -- weaker than a feat (Quick Disable, Ledge Walker).
I have to agree that 2 talents for a 1st level spell and a cantrip is a bit much. I would suggest just rolling the two into a single talent and leaving it at that. If a player wants more magic than that I suggest he pick up a level of sorcerer.
Caster level is fine at 1/2, rogues dabble, they should never be as good at casting a spell as a sorcerer or wizard.
IMO, Minor Magic should give you a cantrip at will and Major Magic a 1st level spell 4/day.
I think the idea was to make it so a rogue who wanted to take Dispeling Attack -which is *awesome*, had to spend a lot of his talents on it. Just throwing that out there.
Even if they wanted to make rogues have to sacrifice something for dispelling strike, it's ridiculous to give them some abilities that are basically non-existent.
Half caster level is NOT fine. Half caster level basically relegates the rogue to picking true strike. If they had a full caster level, a rogue could at least pick up magic missile without being a total piece of crap.
Half caster level is NOT fine. Half caster level basically relegates the rogue to picking true strike. If they had a full caster level, a rogue could at least pick up magic missile without being a total piece of crap.
But that's the point -- the minor talents are supposed to be (almost) total crap (i.e. flavour instead of power). If you make them all as good as a feat, then that's like giving the rogue a feat every level.
I think the idea was to make it so a rogue who wanted to take Dispeling Attack -which is *awesome*, had to spend a lot of his talents on it. Just throwing that out there.
It's bad enough we have a bunch of pointless feats which you need to take to qualify for the good feats, lets not make lame qualifier talents also.
But that's the point -- the minor talents are supposed to be (almost) total crap (i.e. flavour instead of power). If you make them all as good as a feat, then that's like giving the rogue a feat every level.
Half caster level is NOT fine. Half caster level basically relegates the rogue to picking true strike. If they had a full caster level, a rogue could at least pick up magic missile without being a total piece of crap.
I think some of the talents are better than feats because they expand on rogue specific abilities. Fast stealth is great. Worse case scenario you can use 2 of the talents to pick up specific feats (agile maneuvers, finesse, weapon focus). Dropping two of those in exchange for a cantrip and a first level spell? Ehh... especially when you consider that you can use one of the feats you free up for skill focus UMD so you can do some serious magic.
I don't see rogues wasting this power on a direct damage spell. It's much more likely to used this for something like shield or mage armor where duration is longer and caster level not as important.
Then again, I know some people allow you to use sneak attack with spells? If you can SA with magic missile suddenly you have a different situation, and another good reason why it should be 1/2 rogue level.
Then again, I know some people allow you to use sneak attack with spells? If you can SA with magic missile suddenly you have a different situation, and another good reason why it should be 1/2 rogue level.
No attack roll = no SA.
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Even if they wanted to make rogues have to sacrifice something for dispelling strike, it's ridiculous to give them some abilities that are basically non-existent.
Half caster level is NOT fine. Half caster level basically relegates the rogue to picking true strike. If they had a full caster level, a rogue could at least pick up magic missile without being a total piece of crap.
what if the rogue is not hack & slasher and wants just "detect magic" & "identify"
i am thinking in a treasure hunter rogue (better if an elf) and just want to know how much values or what does what he found?
using it for combat spells is ridiculous,... if someone wants to be able to throw magic missileshe can do a sorcerer
I don't see an issue with them, they may be a bit weak but add flavor and rogues get a bokoo of talents anyhow.
Cantrips potentially useful for a rogue, even with 1/2 caster level:
Acid Splash (he gets SA with it on a touch attack with no SR)
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Daze
Dancing Lights
Light
Ray of Frost (less so than Acid Splash, admittedly)
Ghost Sounds
Mage Hand (one of the many 0-level spells which doesn't really benefit from caster level much anyway)
Mending (out of combat)
Message
Open/Close
Arcane Mark
Prestidigitation
That's most of the list, though I'm still gonna push for making it at will.
Now, 1st level:
Alarm (lasts all night by 8th level)
Endure Elements (static 24-hour duration)
Hold Portal (might be just enough for a getaway)
Protection from Law
Shield (not an excellent choice, but could be worse)
Grease (also might be enough to aid an escape)
Mount (2hr/level duration)
Obscuring Mist
Unseen Servant
Comprehend Languages (less useful because of the Linguistics consolidations, can still get you through a conversation or part of a book)
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Identify
True Strike
Charm Person
Hypnotism
Sleep (this one is actually especially useful, since it lets him sneak past low-level guards with ease)
Floating Disk (for loot)
Color Spray (for a nasty surprise, and doesn't care about CL)
Disguise Self (it lasts long enough to get you in or out)
Magic Aura (very long duration makes this excellent for 1/2 CL. You can be half a week away before the blacksmith discovers the sword you sold him wasn't magical)
Silent Image
Ventriloquism
Animate Rope
Erase
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Jump
Magic Weapon
Reduce Person
In conclusion, the 1/2 CL isn't the problem. I'm mostly concerned that dipping one level into Wizard gets you three at-will Cantrips and two 1st level spells, plus you can change these every day, plus either a Familiar (a useful lookout for a rogue) or a Bonded Item (which is basically a third 1st level spell-per-day, but it can be any in his spellbook). Oh, and let's not forget Scribe Scroll and the Specialist abilities (some of which are really good for a rogue, like the Enchantment, Divination, and Transmutation specials). You have to deal with Arcane Spell Failure (that's an argument for another day), but leather armor is only 10%, and you're not casting in combat anyway, so it isn't the end of the world if your spells fail once every 10 times you cast them.
In conclusion, the 1/2 CL isn't the problem. I'm mostly concerned that dipping one level into Wizard gets you three at-will Cantrips and two 1st level spells, plus you can change these every day, plus either a Familiar (a useful lookout for a rogue) or a Bonded Item (which is basically a third 1st level spell-per-day, but it can be any in his spellbook). Oh, and let's not forget Scribe Scroll and the Specialist...
A rogue talent shouldn't be comparable to a 1 level dip in wizard or sorcerer. Incidentally the 1 level dip would wind up with caster level stuck at 1st level.
<snip>
Now, 1st level:
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Grease (also might be enough to aid an escape)
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With the changes to Acrobatics, Grease makes everybody in a 10' square flat footed, and moving half speed, or prone if they fail the easy save or the balance check. In short, it is not as weak as it seems, especially if something can keep the opponent in the Grease. Caster level doesn't really matter much at the ranges that a rogue's sneak attack will work.
It would be one of my first choices, as a rogue, particularly if there was some way to keep the enemy under the effects of the spell. This would keep the enemy taking full sneak attack damage every attack for the duration of the spell, without having to worry about a flanker.
With the changes to Acrobatics, Grease makes everybody in a 10' square flat footed, and moving half speed, or prone if they fail the easy save or the balance check.
Please read the Pathfinder description of the Grease spell; it specifically does NOT make you flat-footed.
I would use Minor Magic for Read Magic , then Major Magic for True Strike to 'guarantee' I get to cheap-shot almost any foe.
Given 'discretionary spending' for that rogue a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell becomes Your Best Friend. ^_^
With the changes to Acrobatics, Grease makes everybody in a 10' square flat footed, and moving half speed, or prone if they fail the easy save or the balance check.Please read the Pathfinder description of the Grease spell; it specifically does NOT make you flat-footed.
I did when I posted this, and your point is accurate only if they make only 5' steps, or stand still. It is unclear from the description as to whether taking damage while in the area of effect of a grease spell, even while standing still or taking only 5' steps, would provoke an Acrobatics check. That should be clarified. Besides, it is a potentially good use of Bullrush, to force an opponent to move more than 5'.
Grease still has additional utility as a disarm, since it requires a save every round a creature attempts to hold onto the item.
Also (since the post monster isn't letting me edit my last post today)...
EDIT: I feel I should point out that a level dip into wizard costs you hit points and skill points, in addition to putting you one level further away from your next talent and your next sneak attack die. That's like spending a hit point, six skill points, half a talent, and half a sneak attack die, to say nothing of the 20th-level rogue ability and potential favored class benefits. Spending two talents and losing at-will cantrips to avoid all those drawbacks (and to gain a caster level higher than 1st as an added bonus) is more than worth it.
Indeed not. My first thought on this was that the cantrip was more or less worthless but the spell was useful and they should be rolled together. I've since come around to the idea that the cantrip is just fine as a talent by itself. In general... this is something that just doesn't need to be fixed.
If anything the 11th level dispeling attack is a little out of whack.
The rogue's sneak attack damage more than makes up for the lack of scaling in my opinion.
An acid splash that does +5d6 of acid damage is a nice addition to the rogue's arsenal.
It depends on the Rogue being smart about when he/she uses their minor arcana but minor arcana has had a major impact in more than a few combats so far in my experience.
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Also (since the post monster isn't letting me edit my last post today)...
EDIT: I feel I should point out that a level dip into wizard costs you hit points and skill points, in addition to putting you one level further away from your next talent and your next sneak attack die. That's like spending a hit point, six skill points, half a talent, and half a sneak attack die, to say nothing of the 20th-level rogue ability and potential favored class benefits. Spending two talents and losing at-will cantrips to avoid all those drawbacks (and to gain a caster level higher than 1st as an added bonus) is more than worth it.
Agreed, but there should be a price to pay for "dabbling" into the arcane arts -- whether it's via "dipping" into sorcerer or wizard, or by taking those Talents. I find it a bit disturbing that you could (without multiclassing) use ranged touch attack spells to deliver your sneak attack damage... maybe there should be a Feat ('Arcane Sneak Attack', or something?) you should take to be able to do that?
Personally, I'd lose Minor/Major Magic and Dispelling Strike, because they don't fit my image of the single-classed rogues as "martial" characters. Of course, you may choose not to pick them and as a DM you can ban them, but I still find them annoying and thematically inappropriate...
Agreed, but there should be a price to pay for "dabbling" into the arcane arts -- whether it's via "dipping" into sorcerer or wizard, or by taking those Talents. I find it a bit disturbing that you could (without multiclassing) use ranged touch attack spells to deliver your sneak attack damage... maybe there should be a Feat ('Arcane Sneak Attack', or something?) you should take to be able to do that?
I'm not sure it's entirely clear in the rules you can use a spell to SA. I know many people play it that way. The ability just doesn't talk about it. Perhaps it was in the FAQs or something.
I've never dug into this very much because my players have never done this.
The 1 level dip in sorcerer or wizard is more concerning if you can use sneak attack with the 1st level SLAs because they are at will ranged touch attacks.
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what if the rogue is not hack & slasher and wants just "detect magic" & "identify"
That's the character I'm playing right now. I happily took minor arcana (detect magic) as a talent, and as the skill monkey, I've put tons of ranks in Appraise, so my rogue functions as the party's magic-item-identifier. It works great.
If anything, I might increase both minor and major to more than just two per day, like 1 + Cha bonus per day.
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Personally, I'd lose Minor/Major Magic and Dispelling Strike, because they don't fit my image of the single-classed rogues as "martial" characters. Of course, you may choose not to pick them and as a DM you can ban them, but I still find them annoying and thematically inappropriate...
Fair enough, but rogues always have been adept at "Use Magic Device," even back in the older editions of the game, so dabbling in magic strikes me as flavor-appropriate. I think of a thief who has read enough scrolls that something stuck in his head.
A spellcaster starts off with 3 different cantrips, all at-will. Taking a talent to get a single cantrip for only 2/day is downright insulting.
A spellcaster starts off with 3 different cantrips, all at-will. Taking a talent to get a single cantrip for only 2/day is downright insulting.
Then don't take it and avoid the insult.
Whew...crisis averted. :-)
Giving a character a list of options that include good choices and all-around bad choices is actively worse than a list that's only good choices. You're giving players added ability to make worse rogues, which is not a good thing.
Giving a character a list of options that include good choices and all-around bad choices is actively worse than a list that's only good choices. You're giving players added ability to make worse rogues, which is not a good thing.
Are you seriously saying that every possible combination of choices has to be exactly as powerful as every other possible combination of choices? That's crazy and probably impossible.
At any rate, I think there are more weak rogue minor talents (Rogue Crawl, Quick Disable, Resiliency, Ledge Walker) than there are strong ones (Finesse Rogue, Combat Trick, maybe Fast Stealth). I'd rather make the strong ones weaker than the weak ones stronger (considering I didn't think the 3.5 rogue needed a power boost in the first place).
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Virgil,
Spellcasters also start off with six skill points fewer and no sneak attack. If you want cantrips at will, you take a level in sorcerer and suffer the lack of increase in your rogue abilities. If you want to get all the good things that go with being a rogue, and cast some magic, it will be very weak so that rogue is not as good a spellcaster as a sorcerer. To me, this makes sense. At will cantrips for a non-spellcaster is too much.
A spellcaster starts off with 3 different cantrips, all at-will. Taking a talent to get a single cantrip for only 2/day is downright insulting.
It's not insulting at all. It lets me play the Grey Mouser without multiclassing out of rogue.
Since that's probably the most iconic fantasy character the D&D Theif/Rogue has been built around, it's about time.
No, I'm not saying it has to be exactly as powerful, but there shouldn't be such a disparity.
The vast majority of talents are on par with a feat, and there are several extant feats (two off the top of my head from Complete Arcane) that give two cantrips and a 1st level spell 1/day each, making this talent appreciably weaker. I don't know anybody who ever considered taking those feats, because they were so weak.
This goes double in light of the fact it's been decided that there's nothing wrong without going from 4 single castings to 4 seperate cantrips with no casting limit at all. It really is a minor ability, and I would never call/mistake someone who casts only ray of frost, even at will, a sorcerer.
Saying you can get use out of them is like having two characters with ~2300gp, then handing one a +1 sling and another a +1 longbow. They can both attack at range, but you can tell someone is getting ripped off by more than 75gp.
No, I'm not saying it has to be exactly as powerful, but there shouldn't be such a disparity.
The vast majority of talents are on par with a feat[..]
Please tell me which minor talents you think are worth a feat. I believe that they are slightly in the minority, not the "vast majority".
Personally, I'm not crazy about clerics and wizards spamming Detect Magic every round, all day; I certainly don't want rogues getting in on the act.
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On the other hand, the fact that cantrips are now 'at will' reduces the coolness of the rogue minor arcana. Any party with a wizard is likely to never need the rogue doing this stuff. If they got major and minor arcana together in one, at least they'd be able to cast True Strike (useful) without having to be able to push the wizard aside to do the stuff the wizard can do for free.
Minor and major magic are far from the weakest of the talents. How come people are complaining about these talents and not the other weaker talents? Where is the outcry about Stand Up and Rogue Crawl? No one seems 'insulted' because rogues only get 1HP/ level healing when clerics get 1d6/2 levels on multiple targets (multiple times per day).
Rogue talents are a place where the rogue gets to play dilettante none of these powers are mind blowing, they are minor tricks the rogue can use to pull off something that is generally outside the scope of the class.
I wouldn't mind seeing the existing two powers bumped into one power (and allowing a rogue to take this talent twice) but otherwise this is fine.
No, I'm not saying it has to be exactly as powerful, but there shouldn't be such a disparity.
The vast majority of talents are on par with a feat, and there are several extant feats (two off the top of my head from Complete Arcane) that give two cantrips and a 1st level spell 1/day each, making this talent appreciably weaker. I don't know anybody who ever considered taking those feats, because they were so weak.
This goes double in light of the fact it's been decided that there's nothing wrong without going from 4 single castings to 4 seperate cantrips with no casting limit at all. It really is a minor ability, and I would never call/mistake someone who casts only ray of frost, even at will, a sorcerer.
Saying you can get use out of them is like having two characters with ~2300gp, then handing one a +1 sling and another a +1 longbow. They can both attack at range, but you can tell someone is getting ripped off by more than 75gp.
Maybe the patch is to change what Major Arcana does.
If Major Arcana allowed the rogue to use the cantrip at will, and allowed use of the 1st level spell 2 times a day, would it be better, and does anyone think it would be far too much?
Well, here, I've suggested that, instead of getting rid of minor/major magic talents, we add a familiar as a possible talent, to give it a bit of a payoff. I don't think these talents need to be boosted if they pave the way to better talents, such as familiar and dispelling stroke.
Maybe the patch is to change what Major Arcana does.
If Major Arcana allowed the rogue to use the cantrip at will, and allowed use of the 1st level spell 2 times a day, would it be better, and does anyone think it would be far too much?
Personally, I think that might be too strong. The 1st level spell once per day is pretty good (true strike and mage armor will, of course be chosen). It's the 0 level spell 1/day that's silly. Why not make it 3/day?
Bleeding Attack: Better than a feat
Combat Trick: Is a feat
Fast Stealth & Ledge Walker: Less than a feat, though I know some people who consider 3.5 Combat Casting to be a valid feat, which this is on par with (negating a -5 penalty), they should likely be combined into one talent
Finesse Rogue: Is a feat
Minor & Major Magic: Less than a feat, which is the argument. Should be combined, at minimum, or just make Minor at-will rather than 2/day.
Quick Disable: Less than a feat, because disarming still takes too long to use in combat and out of combat is long enough to get the job done anyway.
Resiliency: Ever so slightly behind Toughness, though you can't discount its stacking nature (since you can't take Toughness multiple times now, and might almost be worth it).
Rogue Crawl & Stand Up: Less than a feat, should be combined
Slow Reactions: Equal to a feat for tactical purposes
Surprise Attacks: Easily a feat in power, and a good one at that
Weapon Training: Is a feat
Alright, my bad. Half the talents are on par with feats, not the vast majority.
I doubt people want to remove all of the feat ones, the only recourse should be to make the bad half on par with the good half. Several can just be mixed together to do this, and Quick Disable should actually be reduced to 1 round rather than half time.
I doubt people want to remove all of the feat ones, the only recourse should be to make the bad half on par with the good half.
Even if you picked the worst rogue talents every time, you would still be more powerful than a 3.5 rogue. Do you consider the 3.5 rogue to be unplayably weak?
Saying that all rogue talents need to be as powerful as Finesse Rogue (say) is like saying all 1st level wizard spells need to be as powerful as Sleep or Colour Spray, just to prevent someone from accidentally choosing a sub-optimal talent/spell.