I wish this were an Onion article. At least she has faith.
Damn...thats sick wrong...
I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.
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I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.
I would be happy to join that conversation any day. I have taken a few classes on Islam and Islamic political thought, but I am always interested in learning more.
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I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.
This isn't about Islam at all, but about terrorism, assymetric warfare and brainwashing. I'm no Islamic scholar but my understanding is that there is a prohibition on suicide.
I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.This isn't about Islam at all, but about terrorism, assymetric warfare and brainwashing. I'm no Islamic scholar but my understanding is that there is a prohibition on suicide.
Correct. There are plenty of religious groups willing to pervert traditional doctrine into beliefs that suit their purpose. This is no different and the people they prey on are the ones most willing to believe it because they haven't been shown anything to the contrary and are led often by emotion.
At least she has faith.
Which, of course, is the underlying problem, faith in an unprovable and unexamined fairy tale of a rapturous afterlife.
"Imagine there's no countriesIt isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"
Without religion violent extremists would have one less tool to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude.
But religion gives power over others, so unfortunately we're not going to see it abolished any time soon.
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At least she has faith.Which, of course, is the underlying problem, faith in an unprovable and unexamined fairy tale of a rapturous afterlife.
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"
Without religion violent extremists would have one less tool to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude.
But religion gives power over others, so unfortunately we're not going to see it abolished any time soon.
You see how decrying faith as a fairy tale and then quoting that song is kinda funny, right?
You see how decrying faith as a fairy tale and then quoting that song is kinda funny, right?At least she has faith.Which, of course, is the underlying problem, faith in an unprovable and unexamined fairy tale of a rapturous afterlife.
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"
Without religion violent extremists would have one less tool to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude.
But religion gives power over others, so unfortunately we're not going to see it abolished any time soon.
Indeed, however one can theoretically be realized, the other one I don't have so much faith in (pardon the pun).
At least she has faith.Which, of course, is the underlying problem, faith in an unprovable and unexamined fairy tale of a rapturous afterlife.
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"
Without religion violent extremists would have one less tool to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude.
But religion gives power over others, so unfortunately we're not going to see it abolished any time soon.
When you say abolished do you mean for religion to actually be outlawed?
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Indeed, however one can theoretically be realized, the other one I don't have so much faith in (pardon the pun).
That idea is a tool that violent extremists have used to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude numerous times in the 20th century. Interesting, how when we shed our fairy tales, we always seem to have to find new ones.
That idea is a tool that violent extremists have used to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude numerous times in the 20th century. Interesting, how when we shed our fairy tales, we always seem to have to find new ones.
In a lot of cases, it isn't even coercive. The whole environment they live in radicalizes them in cycles of violence. A militant group acts up, the authorities crack down, normal people become further radicalized and join militant groups to act up, cycle repeats.
At some point, who needs coercion? The locals get pissed off enough as it is to do things us normals wouldn't consider rational.
When you say abolished do you mean for religion to actually be outlawed?At least she has faith.Which, of course, is the underlying problem, faith in an unprovable and unexamined fairy tale of a rapturous afterlife.
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"
Without religion violent extremists would have one less tool to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude.
But religion gives power over others, so unfortunately we're not going to see it abolished any time soon.
No, maybe the word "abolished" carries the wrong connotations, since it's usually used when something is "forcefully" removed.
I meant it in its root meaning - "to do away with" - where we, as the entire human race, collectively progressed to a point where we would no longer find it necessary to hold (i.e. "to do away with") such ancient superstitious beliefs.As long as religions are basic death cults (which most of the major religions are, i.e. this life is a mere shadow of the glory of the afterlife or the next life can be a step up through reincarnation) we will have people willing to sacrifice their lives (and those of others obviously) to attain this believed better afterlife.
If people realized that once this life is up there is nothing afterwards I think a lot more would treat it more preciously.
That idea is a tool that violent extremists have used to coerce impressionable men and women into servitude numerous times in the 20th century. Interesting, how when we shed our fairy tales, we always seem to have to find new ones.
Indeed, however one can theoretically be realized, the other one I don't have so much faith in (pardon the pun).
If living peacefully together is a fairy tale I wish everyone would swap it for their current fairy tale immediately.
At least then it affects THIS life and not a perceived afterlife.
Correct. There are plenty of religious groups willing to pervert traditional doctrine into beliefs that suit their purpose. This is no different and the people they prey on are the ones most willing to believe it because they haven't been shown anything to the contrary and are led often by emotion.I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.This isn't about Islam at all, but about terrorism, assymetric warfare and brainwashing. I'm no Islamic scholar but my understanding is that there is a prohibition on suicide.
Then why are not more Mulsims condemming this Loudly?
Part of the problem is that these men and women are not "shown anything to the contrary" because no one is making any effort to reach them.
"Non-Mulsims" would be ignored, but where are the Mulsim voices of condemnation?
"Non-Mulsims" would be ignored, but where are the Mulsim voices of condemnation?
A friend of mine helped me finally put my abstract concept of religion into something I could better verbalize.
He said that people often focus on the messenger and loose sight of the message. I am not terribly familiar with many world religious. Most of my experience is with Christianity (being raised Catholic). To me, this disconnect is prevalent in Christianity.
The focus is on Jesus and/or god and not on the message, be excellent to one another. Philosophically (I am not suggesting doing away with secular law ‘cause that way leads madness) we do not need a bunch of rules to tell us how to treat one another. Excepting individuals with certain physiological deficiencies, we all know what is right or wrong.
Why is the focus of most religions on dogma and not just doing what is right?
I apologize to anyone I may offend. This may appear as some kind of attack on Christianity and for that I am sorry. There are a lot of good ideas within the religion, but I think it has lost its focus and has become a tool for corruption and questionable motives. I also apologize for getting on my soapbox. I know better than to get involved in a religious discussion.
Correct. There are plenty of religious groups willing to pervert traditional doctrine into beliefs that suit their purpose. This is no different and the people they prey on are the ones most willing to believe it because they haven't been shown anything to the contrary and are led often by emotion.I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.This isn't about Islam at all, but about terrorism, assymetric warfare and brainwashing. I'm no Islamic scholar but my understanding is that there is a prohibition on suicide.Then why are not more Mulsims condemming this Loudly?
Part of the problem is that these men and women are not "shown anything to the contrary" because no one is making any effort to reach them.
"Non-Mulsims" would be ignored, but where are the Mulsim voices of condemnation?
There are plenty of Muslim voices of condemnation out there, but that stuff doesn't make news as much as shocking extremism does. Also, you have to understand the part of the world where most terrorists (in this case) come from.
Money donated by Muslims to help legitimate charities in Palestine and/or Pakistan can easily be labeled monetary aid to terrorists, or at the very least get you flagged for investigation by the FBI. So if any organization is to help give these people an alternative, it has to come from a genuine third party source. Very difficult when these people are already suspicious of American and/or Western intervention in their own countries.
Why is the focus of most religions on dogma and not just doing what is right?
I'm not offended CourtFool and I agree with the sentiment as it pertains to a lot of the instruction that goes on in the so-called "madrassas" in Pakistan and/or Saudi Arabia. They're interested in teaching Islamic Shariah, not morality.
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Correct. There are plenty of religious groups willing to pervert traditional doctrine into beliefs that suit their purpose. This is no different and the people they prey on are the ones most willing to believe it because they haven't been shown anything to the contrary and are led often by emotion.I just had to say that I am a Muslim, and this is completely messed up and against what I believe Islam teaches. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about Islam with anyone any time.This isn't about Islam at all, but about terrorism, assymetric warfare and brainwashing. I'm no Islamic scholar but my understanding is that there is a prohibition on suicide.Then why are not more Mulsims condemming this Loudly?
Part of the problem is that these men and women are not "shown anything to the contrary" because no one is making any effort to reach them.
"Non-Mulsims" would be ignored, but where are the Mulsim voices of condemnation?
There are plenty of Muslim voices of condemnation out there, but that stuff doesn't make news as much as shocking extremism does. Also, you have to understand the part of the world where most terrorists (in this case) come from.
Money donated by Muslims to help legitimate charities in Palestine and/or Pakistan can easily be labeled monetary aid to terrorists, or at the very least get you flagged for investigation by the FBI. So if any organization is to help give these people an alternative, it has to come from a genuine third party source. Very difficult when these people are already suspicious of American and/or Western intervention in their own countries.
Also, as one of my professors who is Palestinian told me once, the people who should be speaking out against this are people who live in the places where this is going on. However, they are too scared of become the next target to speak out and so the world keeps going on believing that everyone in places like Palestine or Iraq supports the militants. As he pointed out to me, even the voice of American or European Muslims would not carry the same weight as it would if it came from the people in the regions where it is happening.
People misuse and abuse anything they get their mitts on. We misuse politics, money, relationships, education, and religion--just to name a few. The focus of Christianity is the cross--Jesus making a sacrifice motivated by love so we can be forgiven for messing up. When not misused, Christianity is very much about living well 'today.'
The focus of Christianity is the cross--Jesus making a sacrifice motivated by love so we can be forgiven for messing up.
Here, I disagree with you. The focus should be treat others as you would have them treat you. Not Jesus, not the cross, not an all knowing, all powerful god who had to kill his own offspring to forgive us.
Most religions differ on how we got here, but many religions, including the more popular ones, agree on what we should be doing now that we're here.
The best idea is to focus on that:
Love thy neighbor. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Give charity. Sow the seeds of compassion wherever you go.
Peace.
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Most religions differ on how we got here, but many religions, including the more popular ones, agree on what we should be doing now that we're here.
The best idea is to focus on that:
Love thy neighbor. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Give charity. Sow the seeds of compassion wherever you go.
Peace.
As I thought. Most religions can, at their core, be summed up by the phrase: Don't be a dick. If only the type of worshiper who gets airtime would realise this (of course, then they wouldn't get airtime, but I'm good with that too).
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Given what sort of married life she can look forward to in her home country, perhaps blowing herself up seems like the most palatable choice?
I guess it's easier to contemplate a glorious death-spectacle when you don't feel that your life is worth living, and you can see no other way out of what looks to be a living hell.
Ignorant, brainwashed and trapped is no way to go through life, ma'am.
Most religions can, at their core, be summed up by the phrase: Don't be a dick.
Why are you always discriminating against Richards?
Given what sort of married life she can look forward to in her home country, perhaps blowing herself up seems like the most palatable choice?
I guess it's easier to contemplate a glorious death-spectacle when you don't feel that your life is worth living, and you can see no other way out of what looks to be a living hell.
Ignorant, brainwashed and trapped is no way to go through life, ma'am.
It is not that simple. She is sincere in her beliefs.
That is why anti-terrorist Mulsims, who I now see are more numerous then I had previously believed, need to reach her. :(
She would (and should) otherwise, look forward to, and be very happy with a life as a Muslim wife and mother.
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Most religions differ on how we got here, but many religions, including the more popular ones, agree on what we should be doing now that we're here.
The best idea is to focus on that:
Love thy neighbor. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Give charity. Sow the seeds of compassion wherever you go.
Peace.
Exactly, as my church teachs, this is the time to prepare to meet God, by doing good works and treating all people the way that you would want to be treated. We seek to have three virtues, faith, hope, and charity. Of the three charity is the most important as that is the pure love of Christ. Sorry to preach, but it is fitting for this thread.
Sorry to preach, but it is fitting for this thread.
No need to apologize. I opened that can of worms.
What does god have to do with it? Or Jesus for that matter? Charity I can get behind. The rest is just dogma; another way to exclude others.
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Sorry to preach, but it is fitting for this thread.No need to apologize. I opened that can of worms.
What does god have to do with it? Or Jesus for that matter? Charity I can get behind. The rest is just dogma; another way to exclude others.
Honestly, it is because some people need a motivating factor. There are people, like us, who will get behind things like charity because they are simply good people. Other people however, need to believe that they are somehow scoring points with a higher power in order to be nudged into doing the right thing. The historical Jesus recognized this and so formed his church around the guiding principle that salvation was obtained by treating your neighbor the way that you would want to treat you. That is why he taught that the two great commandments were love God and love each other, and then added that you show your love for God by doing good things for other people. Whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God (which I do believe), he was an expert at knowing what made people tick, and he used that to try and create a kinder, gentler world.
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The problem with organized religions is that they are controlled by people, and eventually you will get a person at the top who will try and use the group for his/her on agenda. Kinda like government.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being deeply spiritual, but people should look within themselves to see what is right, and I believe most would find that being ultimately compassionate towards your fellow inhabitants of this world is in their best interest.
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The problem with organized religions is that they are controlled by people, and eventually you will get a person at the top who will try and use the group for his/her on agenda. Kinda like government.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being deeply spiritual, but people should look within themselves to see what is right, and I believe most would find that being ultimately compassionate towards your fellow inhabitants of this world is in their best interest.
Exactly. My usual answer to these situations is that I have no problem with religion, I have a problem with Church (or organized religion). why is there someone who feels he's qualified to tell me i'm "believing wrong", just because I disagree with him on some things. I was raised Catholic, but I have some problems with what they teach. after talking to a bunch of priests I've discovered that there's no "right" way to believe. the fact that all of them read the bible slightly differant and argue on key points and still believe that all of them are going to end up in heaven means that maybe it's the text that's flawed here, which is a part of the church (being that ti was written how many years after Jesus died for us, and was passed as word of mouth before that? who knows just how it's corrupted?).
oh well. that's all i'm willing to say on the topic. People need to stop looking at the religions and instead look at the church. but as long as there are religions there will be churches, and so long as they're around, there will be people controlling them and using them for power. sad reality.
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the fact that all of them read the bible slightly differant and argue on key points and still believe that all of them are going to end up in heaven means that maybe it's the text that's flawed here, which is a part of the church (being that ti was written how many years after Jesus died for us, and was passed as word of mouth before that? who knows just how it's corrupted?).
No matter how perfect God may be, when people start interpreting what He wants, things go downhill fast, because we aren't perfect.
When one person thinks they can tell others what God wants, that's like the sin of Pride writ large. Or that person is completely insane. Or that person is a greedy deceiver who wants to be given the things in life that his parishioners had to actually work to earn.
As for the Bible, I took a Bible in Translation class that dealt with some of the enormous changes that occured in translating it between Hebrew, Latin, Greek and English.
One freakishly enormous translation difference was that 'cast into the lake of fire to suffer everlasting destruction' would have been just as accurately translated as 'your soul is destroyed, instantly, FWOOSH!, and there will be no ressurection' but that wasn't deemed scary enough to the medieval peasantry, to whom life was not unfairly called 'nasty, brutish and short,' so instead it was translated 'deep under the earth, being poked by red-skinned goat-men with pitchforks in a pit of fire for all of eternity, over and over again.' 'Hell' was Sheol, an actual place in the real world where the bodies of victims of plague were burned, not some fantastical destination of wicked souls.
Quite the enormous textual change, all starting with picking the most nasty sounding translation for 'everlasting destruction' and then creatively penciling in pitchforks and capering devils in a 'Hell' beneath the earth and eternal torment, just to jazz things up!
Just married and determined to die
Usually that takes at least a few years. :D
*starts playing paradise by the dashboard light by Meatloaf*
Part of the issue in Palestine is that political ends (fighing a nation that, right or wrong, is viewed as an "occupier") have somehow been turned into an expression of religious piety -- the fact that Israel is a Jewish state lends itself to this sort of thing. That unhappy situation is part of what makes people jump to the (often erroneous) conclusion that Muslim = terrorist. If Israel were an Islamic nation (or if the Palestinians were Jews), there would still be suicide bombings, but you'd be hearing something like "Vive la Resistance!" instead of "Allah Akbar!"
That's only part of it, though. My limited understanding of Islam is that the religion and poltics are often too intertwined to separate -- after all, Muhammad himself was a conqueror, as well as a religious leader -- and (unless I misread it) the Koran gives instructions on how to run a nation, as well as on how to lead your life (veector -- maybe you can help clarify where I'm confused). Anyway, that makes things a bit less clear-cut.
Still, to blame the political struggle entirely on the religious dressing it's been given seems like looking at only part of the picture.
I blame my misunderstanding of the political struggle squarely on the fact that these terrorist scream "Allah Akbar!" when they blow themselves up. Maybe they should change to “For Palestine!” before pulling the trigger. Then everything would be peachy.
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That's only part of it, though. My limited understanding of Islam is that the religion and poltics are often too intertwined to separate -- after all, Muhammad himself was a conqueror, as well as a religious leader -- and (unless I misread it) the Koran gives instructions on how to run a nation, as well as on how to lead your life (veector -- maybe you can help clarify where I'm confused). Anyway, that makes things a bit less clear-cut.
I would highly recommend a book called The Political Language of Islam. One thing it points out is that in Arabic, the original language of Islam, there are not different words for church and state, and the idea that they would be seperated is an alien idea in Arabic thinking. It does create am issue to western secularists, but to the Arab street, we are the one with the crazy ideas.
Edit: The author of the book is Bernard Lewis.
David, curse you for changing your avatar! I keep looking for the pretty toucan to talk to, and now there's just some grungy cartoon guy!
Muhammad himself was a conqueror, as well as a religious leader ... the Koran gives instructions on how to run a nation, as well as on how to lead your life (veector -- maybe you can help clarify where I'm confused)I would highly recommend a book called The Political Language of Islam. One thing it points out is that in Arabic, the original language of Islam, there are not different words for church and state, and the idea that they would be separated is an alien idea in Arabic thinking.
I'd just like to make a couple of comments on the statements above.
@Kirth - Muhammad led the Muslim community in 3 battles between his community and the community of Mecca. According to Islamic history, he was being persecuted in Mecca, so he left by God/Allah's command, and had his community migrate to Medina. After these 3 battles, the community of Mecca signed a treaty that allowed the Muslims to perform pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad died before Islam spread outside the Arabian peninsula.
The Quran/Koran does lay down certain societal laws and personal behavior requirements, but it does not define what a government should be. Islam is perfectly compatible with an electoral system.
@David - I would agree with this, but this is according to definitions of the Arabic at the time, pre-medieval period. This is much like the European concept at the time in which the leader of a nation was considered the protector of the spirituality of his people, or in other words, supported by the pope or another religious leader.
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@David - I would agree with this, but this is according to definitions of the Arabic at the time, pre-medieval period. This is much like the European concept at the time in which the leader of a nation was considered the protector of the spirituality of his people, or in other words, supported by the pope or another religious leader.
Thank you for clearing that up.
"Admiral Ackbar!"
"It's a trap!"
"Admiral Ackbar!"
"It's a trap!"
Leave it to the Navy to want to pull out early.
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The thing I found disturbing/interesting about this article was that it was about a woman suicide bomber. I never really noticed before this that there where women suicide bombers. I guess that sounds stupid, but the idea of blowing up yourself and as many others as you can get in the blast just seems like a guy thing to me. Perhaps the idea of a woman doing this is supposed to carry a stronger message than if a dude where doing it?
I think the brilliant tacticians that came up with the suicide bomb plan are running out of troops.