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A Cleric gets 3+ Cha bonus so I'm going to say 16 which gives +3, which brings their total Channel up to 6. And at level 20 it's safe to assume they might have a stat +item for Cha that brings their Cha to 22 or 9 Channel Energy.
At level 1 to 3 the average heals for Channel Energy is 3.5 AoE per heal. They use all their turns it would be an average of 21 heal per day. However these would be used after an encounter more often then not and D&D is meant to have 4 encounters per day. So that 21 heal is brought down to 5.25 per encounter. While this brings up lvl 1 character back to ready for a fight at level 1 but at level 3 it's only a small portion of their HP.
At level 4 their healing abilities raises to 7 per turn, and since mental stats take up same slots they're more likely take up wis item anyway. So it brings their per day heal to 42 or 10.5 per encounter. A wiz/sorc at that level would have an average of 16.5 HP with just 10 con and Paladin at that level would have 26.5 (again assuming 10 con). So a Cleric is not healing the wiz/sorc or paladin to full, and in the case for paladin/fighter it's less then half their hp.
Let's skip ahead to level 20 with a cleric with 22 cha bring their healing abilities to 35 heals per turning for total of 9 times. That's 315 Hp or 78.5 per encounter. Well a wiz/sorc would have 72.5 hp at that level and paladin would have 114.5 (once again assuming 10 con). So while the cleric is healing wiz/sorc to full he's more likely topping off paladin. This may sound bag but let's look at clw wand for a cheap 750 gold at level 20 heals for 275 hp on average. At that level people have 880,000 gold at that level. So all the cleric is doing is saving the party 3,000 to 4,500 gold per 4 encounters. A very small insignificant amount of wealth at that level.
At level it's powerful but looses it's wham after reaching level 2 or 3. But it's really only used to reduce down time unless you really think 3.5 (aside for lvl 1) to 35 AoE is going to do much when it can heal your enemies as well. In the case of undead once again it's only effective at low level after that you get spells that can far exceed damage done by turning and 35 heal at 20 is not going to do much.
So in summary channel energy is only worth it as an after battle heal and very strong at first level. However it also reduces the 15 minute adventuring party at level one by allowing cleric to save her spells fights and heal out of battle to continue on for the day.
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Btw a Paladin at lvl 20 would have 8 channel energy due to it using LoH 2x a day. A paladin gains 1/2 pally level + Cha bonus so assuming a 22 Cha paladin that would mean 16 LoH or 8 channel energy.
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A Cleric gets 3+ Cha bonus so I'm going to say 16 which gives +3, which brings their total Channel up to 6. And at level 20 it's safe to assume they might have a stat +item for Cha that brings their Cha to 22 or 9 Channel Energy.
That's a bit of a high charisma score for a cleric, whose actual main stat is wisdom, but we'll go with it.
At level 1 to 3 the average heals for Channel Energy is 3.5 AoE per heal. They use all their turns it would be an average of 21 heal per day. However these would be used after an encounter more often then not and D&D is meant to have 4 encounters per day. So that 21 heal is brought down to 5.25 per encounter. While this brings up lvl 1 character back to ready for a fight at level 1 but at level 3 it's only a small portion of their HP.
Assuming that more than one character is damaged after the encounter, and that the party consists of 4 PCs, it is more like 42 - 84 damage healed per day, the low end assuming only 2 characters damaged at the end of each encounter, or all damaged, but some less than others, making much of the healing redundant. Thus the per-encounter healing becomes 10.5 - 21.
Additionally, in my experience playing a cleric with 14 charisma, extra turning and selective channeling, most of this healing occurs during combat, not after. One can argue this point all one wants, but I have found that with the characteristics I listed, and some fairly easy tactical maneuvering, using the channel energy in combat is quite feasible.
At level 4 their healing abilities raises to 7 per turn, and since mental stats take up same slots they're more likely take up wis item anyway. So it brings their per day heal to 42 or 10.5 per encounter. A wiz/sorc at that level would have an average of 16.5 HP with just 10 con and Paladin at that level would have 26.5 (again assuming 10 con). So a Cleric is not healing the wiz/sorc or paladin to full, and in the case for paladin/fighter it's less then half their hp.
The increase from 1d6 to 2d6 for channel energy actually occurs at 3rd level, not 4th. Also, as I think most play-testers are using some means by which additional hit-points are given to PC's (an extra class hit-die at first level, or a racial hit-die, or a flat hit-point award), plus the possibility of an extra hp per level for choosing your race's favored class,your estimated average hit points for characters is low by 3-12 hp. Once again, your assumption is that only a single character is wounded at the end of the encounter, thus I put it that the actual healing per-day is 84 at the low end, and 168 at the high end. (the high end being the unlikely situation where all characters in the party are wounded enough to receive full benefit from each channel after every encounter) The per-encounter healing is 21 - 42.
Let's skip ahead to level 20 with a cleric with 22 cha bring their healing abilities to 35 heals per turning for total of 9 times. That's 315 Hp or 78.5 per encounter. Well a wiz/sorc would have 72.5 hp at that level and paladin would have 114.5 (once again assuming 10 con). So while the cleric is healing wiz/sorc to full he's more likely topping off paladin. This may sound bag but let's look at clw wand for a cheap 750 gold at level 20 heals for 275 hp on average. At that level people have 880,000 gold at that level. So all the cleric is doing is saving the party 3,000 to 4,500 gold per 4 encounters. A very small insignificant amount of wealth at that level.
Once again, your math is assuming that only a single character is wounded at the end of the encounter. If you assume that 2-4 characters are wounded at the end of each encounter, you have 630 - 1260 per day, or 157 - 314 per encounter. assuming the clw wand heals its average, that's 2/3 - 1 1/10th clw wands per encounter, or 2 2/3rd wands - 4 2/5th wands per day, which actually comes out to be less money spent on wands than you said (maximum 3,300, and yes, I realize I am making your point for you).
However, the benefit of channel energy is not the amount of gold it saves a party, a party of 20th level can quite easily have items made for them that allow them to heal themselves with Cure Critical Wounds 3/day as a free action within their budgets. The benefit is in its efficiency of action (healing 2-4 party members with a single action is twice to four times as efficient as healing them individually for an equal amount), and despite the fact that you are depriving a 20th level cleric with a minimum of 10 feats available to him, the selective channeling feat, the benefit of channel energy is healing in combat from the relative safety of range. Otherwise, in-combat healing needs to be done at significant risk to the healer.
At level it's powerful but looses it's wham after reaching level 2 or 3. But it's really only used to reduce down time unless you really think 3.5 (aside for lvl 1) to 35 AoE is going to do much when it can heal your enemies...
Once again, you are completely ignoring the existence of the selective channeling feat. With the addition of that feat, channel energy becomes quite useful in-combat. Let's take the example of an enemy 10th level wizard casting fireball at the party: the fireball does 10d6 fire damage to all 4 party members, for an average of 30 hp of damage. Let's assume that 2 party members make their save, one of which is a rogue, thus has evasion and suffers 0 damage. In this case the total damage to the party is 75 (0 + 15 + 30 + 30). The next round the cleric channels energy for 5d6 healing, averaging at 15 HP per party member. Well the rogue didn't need healing, so his healing is wasted. The other party member who made his save is healed entirely. The last 2 party members who missed their saves are healed for half the damage the fireball did. Thus, the cleric just effectively healed the party for 45 out of the 75 damage the fireball just did with a single standard action.
Now lets assume channel energy no longer exists, and we are in the same scenario. The party is hit by a fireball for 30 damage, a total of 75 damage getting through to 3 of the party members. What are the cleric's options? Well, at 10th level, the cleric has access to 5th level spells, thus his highest level healing spell is going to be Cure Light Wounds, Mass. So he chooses to burn one of his 2 5th level spells to cast it, and gets an average of 14 healing per party member out of it. Same effect, less 3 hit points, yet he has now used up one of only 2 5th level spells he had available. Guess he is not going to flame strike anything today.
Now lets assume that he chooses not to burn a 5th level spell to do Cure Light Wounds, Mass. Instead he chooses to use wands that he has available. This cleric was lucky and has one of each level of healing wand, totally full. First he goes to the fighter, who missed his save, and hits him with his Cure Critical Wounds wand, for an average of 23 healing. Yay, the fighter is now only 7 hp away from maximum. Oops, now it's the enemy wizard's turn again. He fireballs the party again, same result. The rogue suffers no damage, the fighter takes the full 30 (oh no, I just healed him, and now he has 7 less hp than before I healed him), the party's wizard takes half (total of 30 damage to the party's wizard, he's looking pretty beat up) and the cleric himself takes the full 30 damage for a total of 60. Well luckily the cleric has better than average hit points, and somehow managed to squeeze out a 14 Constitution, so he now has 18 hp left.
I think you see where I am going with this. You say that channel energy looses its 'wham' at second or third level, yet I have just shown you how it is more effective at 10th level than a 5th level spell, the highest level spell available at 10th level, and orders of magnitude more effective than the best healing wands available in the game.
hmm...
it sounds like Channel Energy is meant to let Clerics fulfill one of their major functions (Healing)
without tying up all their Spell Slots. (well, that's what Jason Buhlman said)
It actually feels like Druids, whose Wildshape never competed for their normal Spell Slots,
but had it's own separate usages/day mechanic.
surely an increase in "power", as all Pathfinder Classes are seeing (well, not so much Druid, but they still get Favored Class & skill consolidation), but since Pathfinder adventures will be written TO this rule-set in a year, I don't think it's too problematic.
I DO think the Selective Channeling Feat, COULD be made a fixed number of targets (say, 2?), and require taking the Feat multiple times in order to increase that, though since high-CHA Clerics are already sacrificing by investing in that non-Primary Stat, I think that's already a limiter. Low CHA Clerics, like those who want high WIS and high/decent Int or Physical Stats, don't get as much use of Channel Energy. So you optimize for one or the other. Actually, if Channel Energy usages are determined by a secondary Stat (CHA), why not do the same for Wildshape, for consistency? (maybe CON?)
hmm...
it sounds like Channel Energy is meant to let Clerics fulfill one of their major functions (Healing)
without tying up all their Spell Slots. (well, that's what Jason Buhlman said)It actually feels like Druids, whose Wildshape never competed for their normal Spell Slots,
but had it's own separate usages/day mechanic.surely an increase in "power", as all the Pathfinder Classes are seeing (well, not so much Druid, but they still get favored Class & skill consolidation, etc), but since the Pathfinder adventures will be written TO this rule-set in a year's time, I don't think it's too problematic.
I think the Selective Channeling Feat, could be made a fixed number of targets (say, 1 or 2?), and require taking the Feat multiple times in order to increase that, though since high-CHA Clerics are already sacrificing by investing in that non-Primary Stat, I think that's already a limiter. Low CHA Clerics, like those who want high WIS and high/decent Int or Physical Stats, don't get as much use of Channel Energy. So you optimize for one or the other.
Please don't misunderstand me, the large post I made before is not about wanting to nerf channel energy, simply pointing out that it is useful in combat, and does hold up against other healing options available to the cleric, even at high levels. There is nothing wrong with it being useful, I am just trying to refute those who say it is useless, as I have found it to be quite a boon in practice. Saying that it is, on average, one hp per target better than Cure Light Wounds, Mass is not saying that it is over powered, because I have always found that particular spell to be quite under powered for its level - so much so, that I wouldn't mind seeing it removed from the spell list and replaced with something more serviceable when we get to the spells portion of the play-test.
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Actually no where did I state that I'm assuming it was a single target in fact I said it was AoE. You even quoted the part where it says it's AoE Heal per use. So it's still a 5.25 per encounter for everyone in the party. That's why I said it's like giving the party a free clw wand. But you're right I was mistaken about when cleric get's the increase.
By the same token if a wizard cast a 10d6 fireball the average would be 35 and at that level and a channel energy would be 17.5 (lvl 9-10). A Cure Light Wound mass is 13.5. So basically you're spending a feat to heal an extra 4 points of damage.
Actually no where did I state that I'm assuming it was a single target in fact I said it was AoE. You even quoted the part where it says it's AoE Heal per use. So it's still a 5.25 per encounter for everyone in the party. That's why I said it's like giving the party a free clw wand. But you're right I was mistaken about when cleric get's the increase.Yeah, I realized that you were saying it was 5.25 per encounter per party member at the end, when my math for the equivalent healing wands ended up to be actually cheaper than your math was, but by then I was on too much of a tare to look back. But looking back now, I stand by my math, because if we go by your math, we are making the assumption that everyone in the party gets full effect out of every channel, which is unrealistic and hurts your point too much. And even though I am taking an opposing view to you, I'd rather do it based on the facts than on inflated math in my favor.
By the same token if a wizard cast a 10d6 fireball the average would be 35 and at that level and a channel energy would be 17.5 (lvl 9-10). A Cure Light Wound mass is 13.5. So basically you're spending a feat to heal an extra 4 points of damage.
Correction: Spending a feat (which are just so darn cheap now) to not use your highest level spell slot and heal an extra 4 points of damage. Free healing is free healing, no 2 ways about it. Give me a choice between burning a flame strike to heal the party, and not burning the spell, yet still heal the party for 4 more hp than the spell would, I will take option 2 every time. I'm a fire cleric, I cherish my flame strikes.
And yes, I did round down at the end with the fireball example, was just easier logistically, and really did not effect the math, since I rounded down for both the damage and the healing.
Even though I believe the math quite solidly puts channel energy in the category of useful, I think you need to step away from the math for a minute to fully appreciate it. I have been playing a cleric for 9 levels using the channel energy rules, and at no point have I ever felt it was useless, a waste of my action, or even slightly disappointing. When I channel energy, the universal reaction from my group is 'woo-hoo!', and not 'really, you're going to do that again? don't you realize yet that it's a waste of time?'
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Yeah, I realized that you were saying it was 5.25 per encounter per party member at the end, when my math for the equivalent healing wands ended up to be actually cheaper than your math was, but by then I was on too much of a tare to look back. But looking back now, I stand by my math, because if we go by your math, we are making the assumption that everyone in the party gets full effect out of every channel, which is unrealistic and hurts your point too much. And even though I am taking an opposing view to you, I'd rather do it based on the facts than on inflated math in my favor.
Actually I'm making assumption of average roll of 3.5 per d6. If I was assuming full effect then each channel energy 1-2 would heal 6 per die. Now if you meant party separated for some odd reason then yeah.
Correction: Spending a feat (which are just so darn cheap now) to not use your highest level spell slot and heal an extra 4 points of damage. Free healing is free healing, no 2 ways about it. Give me a choice between burning a flame strike to heal the party, and not burning the spell, yet still heal the party for 4 more hp than the spell would, I will take option 2 every time. I'm a fire cleric, I cherish my flame strikes.And yes, I did round down at the end with the fireball example, was just easier logistically, and really did not effect the math, since I rounded down for both the damage and the healing.
Even though I believe the math quite solidly puts channel energy in the category of useful, I think you need to step away from the math for a minute to...
Fare Enough except for me it would be for quicken divine favor and attack.