So in preparation for tomorrow's game, which starts with a fight between Bahor and three of his cronies, with Vimanda waiting to see which side seems to prevail before throwing her hand into the battle, against the PCs, Orsini, and Neolandus, I decided to take the two classed baddies and update them to PF Beta.
Since Bahor gets five rogue talents, I gave him Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training, which frees up two feats. Being the decidedly devious DM that I am, I made a minor tweak in his stats before choosing his feats. I docked him a point of Str and put it in Int, making him eligible for Combat Expertise. I also gave him Improved Feint. So now, if forced into melee, he can up his already considerable AC up by an additional point and use a move action to feint and do a sneak attack every round. (Given his very high Bluff score, he'll succeed more often than not.)
*evil grin* This should be fun...
Ooooh ... ::furiously scribbling this down for later:: I LIKE it! :)
Wouldn't you know it, I had a couple of cancels, so the big fight gets postponed another week. *sigh* I'll have to see what sort of nasty tricks I can give Vimanda with the PF Monk class...
Don't forget that under Pathfinder RPG rules, by level 10, characters get an extra feat too (every 2 levels, instead of every 3 in 3.5.
Ah yes, I have left out a feat, haven't I? I'll have to find something useful. Of course, I probably shouldn't be overly cruel. They are, after all, facing five rakshasas, two of them with class levels, and the raktavarna (which the sorcerer has been carrying around as a silver dagger, and it has been making relatively frequent reports on the heroes to her). It's going to be a knock-down, drag-out fight...or a fighting retreat to get down to the boat, which is a whole new kettle of fish, so to speak.
Glad I could help. My players weren't so glad, but they got one heck of a fight out of him.
I found it interesting that they did NOT award either classed rakshasa their due increase in SR. With some thought - and having done PF Beta statblocks for the entire clan, ramped up to be the "end game" challenge for 8 15th level characters - it strikes me that perhaps rakshasa should not get further increases in SR without taking sorceror levels. (Otherwise, "RAW" Bahor should have an SR of 37 and Vimanda should have an SR of 33 - which they do not in the adventure stat blocks...)
And yes, rakshasa can get positively disgusting in their ACs. Why, look at how many prestige classes they qualify for "as is": Assassin, Duelist, Eldritch Knight and Shadowdancer, all "out of the box". ^_^
Turin, would you mind posting up some of your stat conversions?
I'd really appreciate it. :)
Turin, would you mind posting up some of your stat conversions?
I'd really appreciate it. :)
That will happen when I put my 8 players through that particular meat grinder.
I can e-mail them to any interested parties before then, however.
Creative Director
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I found it interesting that they did NOT award either classed rakshasa their due increase in SR. With some thought - and having done PF Beta statblocks for the entire clan, ramped up to be the "end game" challenge for 8 15th level characters - it strikes me that perhaps rakshasa should not get further increases in SR without taking sorceror levels. (Otherwise, "RAW" Bahor should have an SR of 37 and Vimanda should have an SR of 33 - which they do not in the adventure stat blocks...)
Not adjusting up their SR when they have class levels was, I suspect, actually an editorial oversight, since most creatures with SR don't have this ability, with SR remaining static as they advance. Yet the end result is pretty much the same anyway, so it's not really an error that will really hurt the game; SR 27 is still really tough for the PCs.
I found it interesting that they did NOT award either classed rakshasa their due increase in SR. With some thought - and having done PF Beta statblocks for the entire clan, ramped up to be the "end game" challenge for 8 15th level characters - it strikes me that perhaps rakshasa should not get further increases in SR without taking sorceror levels. (Otherwise, "RAW" Bahor should have an SR of 37 and Vimanda should have an SR of 33 - which they do not in the adventure stat blocks...)Not adjusting up their SR when they have class levels was, I suspect, actually an editorial oversight, since most creatures with SR don't have this ability, with SR remaining static as they advance. Yet the end result is pretty much the same anyway, so it's not really an error that will really hurt the game; SR 27 is still really tough for the PCs.
I agree with this - once the time comes to post the PF Beta statblocks for the CR 16-18 rakshasa, you will see my take on how their SR should advance - and it also partially explains why their CR is not higher.
^^ They're very much 'glass jaw' antagonists ...
Although in the case of this particular clan of rakshasa, that glass jaw is a wee bit harder to ferret out. :)
Turin, I would be interested in those (And any other of your rather gleefully deadly pulp grinding adventures that husk characters of their skins like shucking corn. :) My e- is teancum13@hotmail.com.
Turin, I would be interested in those (And any other of your rather gleefully deadly pulp grinding adventures that husk characters of their skins like shucking corn. :) My e- is teancum13@hotmail.com.
Sent mittean :)
Turin, I would like to see what your devious mind has churned out to vex your poor players.
shinwonmoon@hotmail.com
Turin, I would like to see what your devious mind has churned out to vex your poor players.
shinwonmoon@hotmail.com
Then the e-mail shall be sent momentarily.
Shadowborn and Turin I would loved to be emailed your changes for my Korvosa SVU group. deathboy01@gmail.comThen the e-mail shall be sent momentarily.Turin, I would like to see what your devious mind has churned out to vex your poor players.
shinwonmoon@hotmail.com
Sent you both sets of statblocks (The Arkonas & Crown of Fangs).
Keep in mind I did the big-bads in mind (a) primarily to lift them up to PF Beta guidelines, and (b) for the Queen specifically to get a handle on a 6 to 8-character party. As you can see from my own journal, the Queen nearly did them in.
The Arkonas clan was done with the presumption that the characters were going after them once they whacked the Queen or drove her back to Cheliax. Frankly I'd recommend keeping them 'as is', on the off chance that they do throw down with them, and perhaps work up a simulacrum or clone of the one for them to tangle with in the maze beneath the manor. That is certainly within their (newly written) capabilities - albiet perhaps with a very slight modification - and resources to even do so on a regular basis.
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Shadowborn and Turin I would loved to be emailed your changes for my Korvosa SVU group. deathboy01@gmail.comThen the e-mail shall be sent momentarily.Turin, I would like to see what your devious mind has churned out to vex your poor players.
shinwonmoon@hotmail.com
Sent you both sets of statblocks (The Arkonas & Crown of Fangs).
Keep in mind I did the big-bads in mind (a) primarily to lift them up to PF Beta guidelines, and (b) for the Queen specifically to get a handle on a 6 to 8-character party. As you can see from my own journal, the Queen nearly did them in.
The Arkonas clan was done with the presumption that the characters were going after them once they whacked the Queen or drove her back to Cheliax. Frankly I'd recommend keeping them 'as is', on the off chance that they do throw down with them, and perhaps work up a simulacrum or clone of the one for them to tangle with in the maze beneath the manor. That is certainly within their (newly written) capabilities - albiet perhaps with a very slight modification - and resources to even do so on a regular basis.
Got the email and downloaded the files. Thanks. I will tone it down a nudge as I am running a party of 5. other than that it made my evil heart chuckle in glee.
Now I just need my players to finish their background post on the Korvosa SVU journal.
Looking forward to seeing Korvosa's SVU squad collectively drop their jaws to the floor when they come up against some of those AC's and other bonuses.
The mooks you understood the set up for their 'massive huge & fragile' bonus set ?
So in preparation for tomorrow's game, which starts with a fight between Bahor and three of his cronies, with Vimanda waiting to see which side seems to prevail before throwing her hand into the battle, against the PCs, Orsini, and Neolandus, I decided to take the two classed baddies and update them to PF Beta.
Since Bahor gets five rogue talents, I gave him Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training, which frees up two feats. Being the decidedly devious DM that I am, I made a minor tweak in his stats before choosing his feats. I docked him a point of Str and put it in Int, making him eligible for Combat Expertise. I also gave him Improved Feint. So now, if forced into melee, he can up his already considerable AC up by an additional point and use a move action to feint and do a sneak attack every round. (Given his very high Bluff score, he'll succeed more often than not.)
*evil grin* This should be fun...
You know, when I switched Bahor over to PF rules to potentially take on my six man group of PCs, I didn't really see any way for them to win. I really don't think they could have won, barring some really unlucky dice rolling on my part for Bahor. Especially with having a few regular rakshasa with him.
So I'm curious how this fight worked out for other people. I, personally, would never have forced this fight to happen. When the best fighter in the group needs to roll a 20 to hit Bahor, it's just too nasty a fight.
So in preparation for tomorrow's game, which starts with a fight between Bahor and three of his cronies, with Vimanda waiting to see which side seems to prevail before throwing her hand into the battle, against the PCs, Orsini, and Neolandus, I decided to take the two classed baddies and update them to PF Beta.
Since Bahor gets five rogue talents, I gave him Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training, which frees up two feats. Being the decidedly devious DM that I am, I made a minor tweak in his stats before choosing his feats. I docked him a point of Str and put it in Int, making him eligible for Combat Expertise. I also gave him Improved Feint. So now, if forced into melee, he can up his already considerable AC up by an additional point and use a move action to feint and do a sneak attack every round. (Given his very high Bluff score, he'll succeed more often than not.)
*evil grin* This should be fun...
You know, when I switched Bahor over to PF rules to potentially take on my six man group of PCs, I didn't really see any way for them to win. I really don't think they could have won, barring some really unlucky dice rolling on my part for Bahor. Especially with having a few regular rakshasa with him.
So I'm curious how this fight worked out for other people. I, personally, would never have forced this fight to happen. When the best fighter in the group needs to roll a 20 to hit Bahor, it's just too nasty a fight.
They're not supposed to fight him at the first time they meet him - they're supposed to get their silly tucas' down in the basement and tango with his sis, who is much more manageable. If they decide to throw down with the clan ... well, oops, they picked the wrong fight.
My group did that - and got driven off, with an agreement of servitude for a year as part of the "terms of surrender". They planned - but have not yet been foolish enough to ask for a session to actually throw down on - to lay the smack down on them later on at 15th level or so. ^_^
Turin,
I have become very interested in the changes you made to Bahor and Crown of Fangs, if you don't mind forwarding to yet another person, would you send it to: robert.slager@gmail.com.
Sent!
Shadowborn and Turin I would loved to be emailed your changes for my Korvosa SVU group. deathboy01@gmail.com
I've got it down in a notebook, so I'll have to transfer it to a Word document. Soon as that's done I'll get it off to you.
You know, when I switched Bahor over to PF rules to potentially take on my six man group of PCs, I didn't really see any way for them to win. I really don't think they could have won, barring some really unlucky dice rolling on my part for Bahor. Especially with having a few regular rakshasa with him.
So I'm curious how this fight worked out for other people. I, personally, would never have forced this fight to happen. When the best fighter in the group needs to roll a 20 to hit Bahor, it's just too nasty a fight.
The fight was a tough one to be sure, but there were several factors that worked to the PCs advantage.
1) They'd acquired the two NPC "guests" of the Arkonas. Once they were healed and equipped with spare weapons and armor, the party was up to eight members. They held their own against two of the lesser Arkona brethren, keeping them off the party's back.
2) The cleric has the travel domain. It provides her with some nice movement advantages. Also, she has the Selective Channeling feat, so she can heal multiple party members while blocking enemies.
3) The sorcerer got a lucky Dispel Magic shot on Bahor, which hosed his buffs. Since the rogue and ranger immediately engaged him, he didn't have a chance to recast.
4) The aforementioned rogue and ranger have solidified their combat tactics, which usually take the form of flanking the strongest enemy in the fight.
5) The party has a bard (you know, those simultaneously useless yet overpowered characters?) whose abilities provided much needed bonuses to attack and damage that were invaluable.
6) As far as Vimanda went, that came down to monk vs. monk. The PC, however, was a grappling specialist and managed to keep her contained.
7) Having already encountered a
Never underestimate what your player character group can do on the fly during a fight. :) Yes the Arkonas are formidable - but they're not undefeatable, especially RAW.
[QUOTE="Shadowborn"
The fight was a tough one to be sure, but there were several factors that worked to the PCs advantage.
1) They'd acquired the two NPC "guests" of the Arkonas. Once they were healed and equipped with spare weapons and armor, the party was up to eight members. They held their own against two of the lesser Arkona brethren, keeping them off the party's back.
2) The cleric has the travel domain. It provides her with some nice movement advantages. Also, she has the Selective Channeling feat, so she can heal multiple party members while blocking enemies.
3) The sorcerer got a lucky Dispel Magic shot on Bahor, which hosed his buffs. Since the rogue and ranger immediately engaged him, he didn't have a chance to recast.
4) The aforementioned rogue and ranger have solidified their combat tactics, which usually take the form of flanking the strongest enemy in the fight.
5) The party has a bard (you know, those simultaneously useless yet overpowered characters?) whose abilities provided much needed bonuses to attack and damage that were invaluable.
6) As far as Vimanda went, that came down to monk vs. monk. The PC, however, was a grappling specialist and managed to keep her contained.
7) Having already encountered a ** spoiler omitted ** downstairs in the temple, they were already suspecting more. So a quick align weapon on the ranger's spear gave him the opportunity to do full damage to Bahor during the fight.
I don't see the seneschal bringing a lot to this fight.
Doesn't Dispel Magic only work on one spell effecting the target?I assume a pretty hefty knowledge roll about aligning the weapon was involved? It doesn't sound like Rakshasa are all that common knowledge around Varisia.
Did you remember that each and every rakshasa is a 7th level sorcerer?
One thing that the adventure did incorrectly was set Bahor's and Vimanda's SR. According to the MM, a rakshasa with character levels is SR 27 + character levels.
My group has proven quite remarkable at dealing with threats. Things that you would think would be a horrific fight, they're able to take on with amazing ease. But I doubt, at the level they're supposed to be for this adventure, that they could have taken on a properly organized Arkona defense. Multiple 7 hit dice lightning bolts cause much ouch.
Yes, at the level they encounter Bahor, it is clear from his behavior 'as scripted' that the party should pick up on the fact that they are supposed to follow the Clue Trail into the dungeon and 'deal' with his sister. Naturally some groups will not do so.
As James Jacobs has previously commented, the SR not improving as it is supposed to was an editorial oversight at the time. As it works out well in the CotCT AP to leave it 'as is' (unless one of them takes levels in Sorcerer - although I gave them the benefit of the arcane bloodline for their racial levels of Sorcerer) it isn't such a big deal.
Yes, at the level they encounter Bahor, it is clear from his behavior 'as scripted' that the party should pick up on the fact that they are supposed to follow the Clue Trail into the dungeon and 'deal' with his sister. Naturally some groups will not do so.
As James Jacobs has previously commented, the SR not improving as it is supposed to was an editorial oversight at the time. As it works out well in the CotCT AP to leave it 'as is' (unless one of them takes levels in Sorcerer - although I gave them the benefit of the arcane bloodline for their racial levels of Sorcerer) it isn't such a big deal.
Hey, all I'm saying is, if your group can take these guys out at that level when they're properly organized, you're throwing your group a bone. A properly run defense will at least result in a couple of dead PCs, or running PCs, or a combination of both.
It's your game, throw them a bone if you so desire. Me, being the cold-blooded, unkind DM that I am, would have used the Arkonas to their full abilities and beaten my group into the dirt. Because frankly, if you go looking for this fight, you're asking for it.And keep in mind, I'm only speaking of those groups that will go about doing things the usual "break down door, kill monster" way. If someone comes up with a brilliant plan that manages to isolate different members of the family, etc, etc, etc, then sure. A group at that level could manage it. Probably. But Bahor shouldn't be played like a punk.
Yes, at the level they encounter Bahor, it is clear from his behavior 'as scripted' that the party should pick up on the fact that they are supposed to follow the Clue Trail into the dungeon and 'deal' with his sister. Naturally some groups will not do so.
As James Jacobs has previously commented, the SR not improving as it is supposed to was an editorial oversight at the time. As it works out well in the CotCT AP to leave it 'as is' (unless one of them takes levels in Sorcerer - although I gave them the benefit of the arcane bloodline for their racial levels of Sorcerer) it isn't such a big deal.
Hey, all I'm saying is, if your group can take these guys out at that level when they're properly organized, you're throwing your group a bone. A properly run defense will at least result in a couple of dead PCs, or running PCs, or a combination of both.
It's your game, throw them a bone if you so desire. Me, being the cold-blooded, unkind DM that I am, would have used the Arkonas to their full abilities and beaten my group into the dirt. Because frankly, if you go looking for this fight, you're asking for it.
And keep in mind, I'm only speaking of those groups that will go about doing things the usual "break down door, kill monster" way. If someone comes up with a brilliant plan that manages to isolate different members of the family, etc, etc, etc, then sure. A group at that level could manage it. Probably. But Bahor shouldn't be played like a punk.
LoL ^_^ A punk Bahor is not, that is for sure. My group didn't manage to do more than a couple dozen hit points to him by himself against 8 characters plus animal companion support before being driven off by the pounding of pawd feet coming down the hallway. And that was running him 'off the cuff', since I certainly didn't expect any one to be blind enough to throw down with the furballs.
My party just finished up Seven Days to the Grave, and I'm getting geared up for Escape. I don't see the party defeating Bahor, and they've actually been pretty judicious about realizing when they are overmatched, so I'd love to get the write up on the 15th level Arkona's. stevenankeny@yahoo.com. Thanks!
Oh, also, you mentoin that you talk about what you did to the queen in your "journal". Link?
My party just finished up Seven Days to the Grave, and I'm getting geared up for Escape. I don't see the party defeating Bahor, and they've actually been pretty judicious about realizing when they are overmatched, so I'd love to get the write up on the 15th level Arkona's. stevenankeny@yahoo.com. Thanks!
Oh, also, you mentoin that you talk about what you did to the queen in your "journal". Link?
They've been pretty popular, so I've not posted the pertinent statblocks in the campaign journal. Heck, I've remained unwilling to post the re-do of Vanthus (largely 'cause it isn't very nice, but then, neither is an 8-character group with minions) due to the next crop of Savage Tide campaigns coming along the campaign journal pipe line. :)
Here is my campaign journal. Page 2 should have Her Majesty's 'end game' as it played out for my group... :)
To all whom have requested (and thus received) the Arkonas and/or Crown of Fangs statblock documents, I hope they do you well in your campaigns!
Be sure to linky the goodness telling us about the resultant carnage!!
^^
Turin
Coming in kind of late here, but would you mind passing along your work one more time, my e-mail is Mortagon@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance
Turin
Coming in kind of late here, but would you mind passing along your work one more time, my e-mail is Mortagon@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance
Sent Arkonas and Crown of Fangs documents. ^_^
Sent Arkonas and Crown of Fangs documents. ^_^Turin
Coming in kind of late here, but would you mind passing along your work one more time, my e-mail is Mortagon@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance
Received the documents, that is some mind numbing work. :o
It will spare me a fair amount of time and give my players some really hard time.
Thanks for this.
And I'm going to make the same request! azhrei_fje@yahoo.com
I had tried sending an email to others whose addresses are in this thread, but no response. Oh well.
Documents have been sent. The others' spam filters may have sieved yours out, perhaps meaning they didn't receive your request. :/
Enjoy!
Hey Turin, sorry to bother you but could you send me the Crown of Fangs doc? (shinwonmoon@hotmail.com)
I've taken a look at the Arkonas and they are NASTY! What levels were your PCs when they faced off against them?
Hey Turin, sorry to bother you but could you send me the Crown of Fangs doc? (shinwonmoon@hotmail.com)
I've taken a look at the Arkonas and they are NASTY! What levels were your PCs when they faced off against them?
They didn't face off with them - but I was figuring on a party of 6 to 8 15th level characters plus support critters when I statted them up, only to have timing pull the rug out from under me.
Sending the Crown of Fangs critters.
Turin, I'm also very interested in seeing what you did with the Arkonas and the Crown of Fangs. If you could please send them to me at prchamb@carolina.rr.com, I would greatly appreciate it.
My players fought Bahor to a standoff before Vimanda tipped the balance against the PCs. The party is now working with/for the Arkonas to remove the queen, but I expect the party will turn on them sometime in the final module. Fortunately, the Arkonas have had plenty of time and opportunity to level up. :)
Turin, I'm also very interested in seeing what you did with the Arkonas and the Crown of Fangs. If you could please send them to me at prchamb@carolina.rr.com, I would greatly appreciate it.
My players fought Bahor to a standoff before Vimanda tipped the balance against the PCs. The party is now working with/for the Arkonas to remove the queen, but I expect the party will turn on them sometime in the final module. Fortunately, the Arkonas have had plenty of time and opportunity to level up. :)
Sent and sent ^_^, Sir Mandor.