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Well I haven't gotten to the playtesting of it yet, but there are things about it that have been bugging me, and I didn't see anyone else discussing just the spellcasting (some people talk about it on various threads but there wasn't a thread devoted to it yet).
For me I've always been fine with paladin spellcasting for the most part. but since it got changed to charisma based it has driven me nuts. Charisma based spellcasters need to be spontaneous. The precedent has been set that if a caster has charisma as his casting stat he casts spontaneously. Look to the sorcerer and the favored soul. One arcane, one divine, both charisma based. So please, it is wonderful that MAD has been reduced by making it charisma based, but it should be spontaneous casting. It's not like the paladin has a terribly long spell list that needs memorization. Heck the War Mage has a longer spell list and has access to every spell on it.
The other thing is the half cleric level caster level. This makes no sense. I could understand level -3 the same as his channeling, after all he has no spells level 1-3 but why once he learns to cast and he starts getting spells is his caster level so hampered. It makes his spells to easy too dispel and gives them shorter durations than necessary.
Once again it is wonderful that the Paladin is a charisma based caster now. But please lets make his spellcasting worth using otherwise economy of actions will put his spellcasting in the same place his current lay on hands ability is.
I agree somewhat with the spontaneous thing, and whole heartedly with the half-caster level thing.
For me, the problem in-play with rangers and paladins has always been that they don't start out as spellcasters, and when they get spells they are generally ineffective. Players who have been a combat class for 5 levels generally have little patience for spells.
I would have no complaint if their existing (quite modest) spell progression was moved to first level. Even then, they get a smaller compliment than do full casters. Players would be more likely to exploit those weak spells at earlier levels. Nothing on those self-sufficient spell lists really treads on the real estate of the full casters.
I'm not really keen on the Charisma based == spontaneous casting thing but I do think the Pali should be spontaneous. I also think the ranger should be spontaneous also though. Also, both should cast at -3 spell levels and have slightly better spell selection. It's not as if they are ever going to threaten the primary casters for dominance with 4-5 levels of spells.
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I'm not really keen on the Charisma based == spontaneous casting thing but I do think the Pali should be spontaneous. I also think the ranger should be spontaneous also though. Also, both should cast at -3 spell levels and have slightly better spell selection. It's not as if they are ever going to threaten the primary casters for dominance with 4-5 levels of spells.
I'd much rather rangers stay memorization based and be able to cast as a swift action.
I am very much on board with the level -3 for both paladin and ranger. My question about spontanous caster concerns the spell splots. Would they become spells know like the bard and sorcerer or changable like the spirit shaman. If the former then most players are going to select Blessed Weapon at 4th level. If the latter than I can see more variation. Pesonally I would favor changable on a daily basis.
Good suggestion,
Doug
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I am very much on board with the level -3 for both paladin and ranger. My question about spontanous caster concerns the spell splots. Would they become spells know like the bard and sorcerer or changable like the spirit shaman. If the former then most players are going to select Blessed Weapon at 4th level. If the latter than I can see more variation. Pesonally I would favor changable on a daily basis.
Good suggestion,
Doug
I say neither, I would rather they be modeled after the War Mage, who has a lot more spells and gains access to them all when they reach a level appropriate for said spells. The paladin doesn't have such a wide range of spells nor a big enough gap in effect that being able to cast all of his spells spontaneously would overpower. With a level-3 caster level they will still be weaker in magic power than any full caster class.
Brilliant suggestion and you have my vote for this change to their spell casting.
Doug
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spoiled for length
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And now I'm waiting till level 5 to finally choose a cool class feature.
I never realized just how gimped the level 4 abilities are. In the game I ran before the paladin dropped out and became a ranger at level 3, and the other game with a paladin fell apart at level 2. This is the first time I've actually taken a good hard look at those features.
Channeling, 1+ cha mod as opposed to a clerics 3 + cha mod channeling, and cleric level -3 for his channeling.
So a feature that a cleric gets at first level, is stronger and gets more uses per day (or at least the same # based on the cha breakdown), and the pally has yet another class feature that isn't on par. WHY?!?
I don't get it. Why is a power gotten at higher level weaker than an ability gotten at first level. Seriously that's retarded, hey I've got a capstone power for the paladin, at 20th level he gets a character trait. We can't give him a bonus feat that steps on the fighters toes, and he doesn't get it at first level so it shouldn't be as strong as the fighters bonus feat, a character trait would fit perfectly.
Sound rediculous? then why is that the mantra for the paladins channel energy? I could understand it if the paladin got it at first level. He has all his martial abilities so he doesn't have as good a channel, but this is 4th level. In one level Wizard are going to be throwing fireballs and I have yet another ability that only has utility out of combat.
Let me break this down, 1d6 damage healed is 3.5 average damage. At level three I already showed you how healing 3 damage was a waste of an action so now the difference is that I can do it at range, and if I waste a feat, not heal my enemies as well. Do I need to playtest this, I will, next session I'll try to use this. but I can tell you what will happen, the same that happened when I used lay on hands. Nothing worthwile.
So now we move onto spells. OK I'm a caster now. Lets look at my spell list, after all I have to memorize it. well lets see, hm, bless weapon is good if I'm fighting evil, or divine favor if I'm just fighting random mooks, but each day I have to know which its gonna be before hand or I'm wasting breath. Lets not even get into all the situational spells that would be great if I could cast spontaneously but are as of now never going to get cast because I won't have them memorized when I might actually need them. So lets go look in my splat books, okay nothing there is really any better, one spell lets me take damage to do extra damage but it lasts 2 rounds because my caster level is half my paladin level. Jeeze yet another instance of feeling gipped, one spell a day that may be the wrong choice and leave me screwed with a selection of spells that could be useful but never will because I never have enough spell slots to make memorizing them worthwile.
I'm really starting to get discouraged, I'm beginning to think the only thing that will save the paladin is a complete overhaul. I mean tear down and rebuild from the ground up.
I am officially dropping the level -3 from my suggestions, it makes spells gimped even worse at low levels even though it is better in the long run. I have to vote for spellcasting = paladin level now.
Paladin sucks rant
Yes.
About the biggest redeeming feature of the paladin under PRPG is that it is significantly better than under 3.5.
Here's a thought. Give the paladin the druids full AC (whatever that turns out to be) provided the AC is usable as a mount. Horse, Riding Dog, Dire Bear, T-Rex, it just has to be able to have a saddle. Didn't He-Man ride a giant cat? :) The big advantage of this is unifying rules for pets.
Spellcasting - The biggest significant improvements from 3.5 are the fact that spellcasting switched over to Charisma which works well with the paladin's channeling. Unfortunately what that means is that the paladin has one stat for 2 relatively weak abilities :( I can deal with 1+CHA Bonus but how about channeling being as effective as the clerics and starting at 1st level? Then change 'Lay on Hands' to burn a channeling to heal a single character of 1d6 damage per palidin level (instead of 1d6/2 for a group) again, simplify and unify. Finally... give the paladin the ability to quicken spells somehow (maybe burning a channeling?) so he can cast in combat and occasionally bless weapon on-the-fly.
I like the spontaneous casting for paladins idea. If needed the spell list could be tightened up a bit to prevent abuse.
I think the ranger's list should remain memorized and lean a little more heavily to arcane. (I said a little)
I'd much rather rangers stay memorization based and be able to cast as a swift action.
I missed this previously. I think this would be a nice twist, rangers get swift spells, paladins get spontaneous. The spell lists need to be revisited for both classes in any case.
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I'd much rather rangers stay memorization based and be able to cast as a swift action.I missed this previously. I think this would be a nice twist, rangers get swift spells, paladins get spontaneous. The spell lists need to be revisited for both classes in any case.
Really, what on the paladins spellist is overpowered if they can cast spontaneously?
Really, what on the paladins spellist is overpowered if they can cast spontaneously?I'd much rather rangers stay memorization based and be able to cast as a swift action.I missed this previously. I think this would be a nice twist, rangers get swift spells, paladins get spontaneous. The spell lists need to be revisited for both classes in any case.
Umm... I wasn't trying to imply anything is overpowered. I meant that both lists need to be revisited because they are weaksauce as they are. I guess I wasn't clear.
Compared to the druids "Pray for a Day" this really sucks:
The druid, gets disposable companions but paladin gets pretty severely smacked down? That's irritating.
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Paladin sucks rantYes.
About the biggest redeeming feature of the paladin under PRPG is that it is significantly better than under 3.5.
Oh agreed
Here's a thought. Give the paladin the druids full AC (whatever that turns out to be) provided the AC is usable as a mount. Horse, Riding Dog, Dire Bear, T-Rex, it just has to be able to have a saddle. Didn't He-Man ride a giant cat? :) The big advantage of this is unifying rules for pets.
okay this is an interesting point but I've got to say, I spent three minutes looking at this trying to understand the connection between druids armor class, all those animals, and how giving a paladin a druids armor class makes them better, we've got to stop using acronyms that allready exist in the game system lol.
Spellcasting - The biggest significant improvements from 3.5 are the fact that spellcasting switched over to Charisma which works well with the paladin's channeling.
Agreed again, I mean I was happy to see that, it is a wonderful change and I thank Jason sincerely for making it, it just doesn't do enough for him when even as a charisma caster he's 1/4 a cleric (half a cleric from having 1/2 caster level, 1/2 again from having a limited spell list and very few spell slots)
Unfortunately what that means is that the paladin has one stat for 2 relatively weak abilities :( I can deal with 1+CHA Bonus but how about channeling being as effective as the clerics and starting at 1st level? Then change 'Lay on Hands' to burn a channeling to heal a single character of 1d6 damage per palidin level (instead of 1d6/2 for a group) again, simplify and unify. Finally... give the paladin the ability to quicken spells somehow (maybe burning a channeling?) so he can cast in combat and occasionally bless weapon on-the-fly.
I can stand behind all of those suggestions, I am lastknightleft and I approved this message, one thing though, battle blessing from complete champion allows a paladin to cast all spells as one action faster, swift=free, standard=swift, full round= standard. That feat is good enough for me I know it isn't core but it goes to backwards compatablity. It also makes it so he doesn't need to burn channelings to cast faster.
PS: it's not a paladin sucks rant, its a low level paladin sucks rant ;)
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!