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I know it is late, but for posterity and the chance Jason has a look, this idea evolved out of a good discussion on this thread. Essentially, fighters gain free weapon and armor enhancements in conjunction with Training, which frees up resources, reduces the need for Ye Olde Huge Magick Shoppes, gives them unique abilities, and ties everything into existing systems.
Would something similar to the Paladin's Imbue ability work here? Instead of adding a plus to his attacks with weapon training or armour training, the Fighter could be treated as if his weapon or armour had a certain magic property (such as fortfication) due to his skill making it work as an extraordinary ability. Obviously, the list would have to be careful as I can't think up how flaming could be added like that.I'd rather have a reworking of base assumptions. Fighters need to spend X amount on magic gear, specifically weapons and armor. If they got that stuff for free at certain levels......then they'd be even more dependent on items (magic), and less reliable on their own (as fighters). It's a possible solution, but not one that sits well with me. No, sir; no thanks.
That's a bit more of what I had in mind. Even providing a list, a la Favored Enemy, as to what Fighters can add. You can add any ability that is equal to or less than the bonus granted by your armor or weapon training (repectively, and in addition to those bonuses still being conveyed). A weapon or armor enhanced in this way may not exceed the normal limits of total enhancement bonus. For all purposesany qualified weapon or armor is considered to possess the property while wielded by the fighter. A fighter may change their enhancements every time they gain the relevant armor or weapon training. These enhancements can only be applied to mwk armor or weapons (this circumvents the normal rule of applying enhancements only to magic armor and weapons).
The List:
Armor:
fortification (+1, +3, +5)
slick (+2, +3, +4)
silent moves (+2, +3, +4)
shadow (+2, +3, +4)
invulnerability
Shields (if included in armor training)
arrow deflection
bashing
fortification (+1, +3, +5)
reflecting
Weapons:
defending
distance
ghost touch
keen
ki focus
merciful
mighty cleaving
seeking
speed
throwing
vicious
wounding
For example, a 20th level fighter could have +5 heavy fortification full plate (but only pay for the +5) and a +5 wounding rapier of speed (but only pay for the +5).
Because these are magical modifiers, they mostly stack with the benefits of the fighters feats. It also gives them more gp resources for other stuff, while allowing them to do cool things with their weapons.
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Copied from the original thread:
It should go back, I agree with Sean (and yourself?) But that was my intent even if it doesn't, it allows the fighter to be special by acquiring Improved Critical 3 levels before any other warrior, without a unique class feature explicitly for that purpose.Yes. Consider me totally on board now. The only issue I see is that you can't get speed or vorpal until 20th level (16th seems more reasonable, if you're going to get any use out of it). So maybe just make it +1/4 levels?They can never get the vorpal quality, but they could get a +10-equivalent vorpal weapon at the cost of a +6. They would get speed at 13th level (+3 bonus).
I don't know about them starting with +1 at 1st level. I suppose you could rule that Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus improve your available bonus as well, which would increae the value of those feats, give you the option you want, but still tie the mechanic simplistically into Training.
This is really pushing the border of "fighters use magic" but I think it does it in a realistic way with the enhancements I chose for the list - most of them emulate feats.
I think I've found a new houserule. :)
Jal,
To be honest, it wouldn't hurt things if the various elemental attacks were included as well. They'd still only be options and Barbarians do have elemental rage, so there's precedent of the non-magical getting a quasi-magical effect.How does it compare against the Paladin's ability summon a celestial spirit to his weapon? He can only do that a certain number times per day. His maximum bonus is higher, though. Not sure how they'd compare.
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I agree with Jal that elemental abilities aren't appropriate for this ability. Most people would balk at the fighter being able to burn his enemies with his sword skill. I don't much care for the barbarian ability myself, and I am sure many other people feel the same. We want to keep the fighter the mundane master of arms, accomplishing his feats through physical skill, not magical might.
Hence why I think this class feature needs to be explicitly stated to be extraordinary. It functions when magic does not, because his weapon is keen because he knows how to use it, his armor is fortified because he knows how to turn blows away from vital points. I really like this idea, and will have to keep it in mind in the future.
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Although, I suppose you could have an explanation for an extraordinary version of the elemental powers as well (Paul, did you consider elemental resistance?).
For example, if the fighter has an alchemists fire they can use fire damage for X rounds, acid flask = acid damage. Umm...copper wire = electrical damage, snowball = cold damage? I'm stretching here, any ideas?
TriOmega: Definitely should be Extraordinary. This is plain and simple superior skill. One might call it...Extraordinary skill.
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Ok, had a night to think about it. Some things to consider:
1) Is this a fixed list for each fighter, i.e. each fighter can choose a maximum of four from the list (one for each weapon training/armour training)? Or is it something that can be chosen from the full list every day?
I'd go with the former as I can't rationalise the latter. Also it means the Paladin's ability to summon a celestial spirit is till useful as he has more variety of ability.
2) If it's extraordinary, this makes it more powerful than Summon Celestial Spirit which will be suppressed by anti-magic fields and the like.
3) If it's all the time, this makes it more powerful that Summon Celestial Spirit as that can only be used a limited amount of time per day.
4) Should there be a feat that allows other options to be chosen, even from outside the list (at a cost of one or two pluses to the maximum ability taken)? This obviously assumes 1a) was taken.
I don't want to boost the Fighter so much that the Paladin becomes the new useless, wimp class.
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I'll address your points one at a time Paul, because they are issues that need clarification:
1) Is this a fixed list for each fighter, i.e. each fighter can choose a maximum of four from the list (one for each weapon training/armour training)? Or is it something that can be chosen from the full list every day?
I'd go with the former as I can't rationalise the latter. Also it means the Paladin's ability to summon a celestial spirit is till useful as he has more variety of ability.
It would be a one-time choice, when you gain the relevant Training. As per the description, you can change the appropriate selection at each level you gain Training. (They also gain 5 slots for armour, 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, 19th...for some reason the Armor Training paragraph leaves out 19th but it is on the fighter table, I hope somebody caught this).
I agree with the Paladin problem, see below.
2) If it's extraordinary, this makes it more powerful than Summon Celestial Spirit which will be suppressed by anti-magic fields and the like.
3) If it's all the time, this makes it more powerful that Summon Celestial Spirit as that can only be used a limited amount of time per day.
I think the paladin gets some other cool class features, and choices for their weapon spirit, that tend to take some of the edge off this fighter ability. However, the "always on" element (which I think is necessary for realism) does give a clear advantage to the fighter. I'm not sure how to resolve that other than improving the paladin ability (maybe make a permanent minimum at certain levels).
Now, going outside my comfort zone, we could justify the use of the fighter enhancement as a X/day power. I'll leave that to someone else, because I can't wrap my head around it right now.
A final note about Paladins, it would need to be clarified that this ability overlaps but does not stack with the divine bond feature. Namely, a Paladin 5/Fighter 5 would have more options to choose from, and could apply some simultaneously, but would still be limited to a +1 enhancement from those options.
4) Should there be a feat that allows other options to be chosen, even from outside the list (at a cost of one or two pluses to the maximum ability taken)? This obviously assumes 1a) was taken.
I don't want to boost the Fighter so much that the Paladin becomes the new useless, wimp class.
I think the feat idea would be a good fix for those who want the elemental or other more magically oriented enhancement. Also, it might be a good way to simultaneously improve the Paladin ability.
Improved Enhancement (Combat Feat)
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6, weapon training +1 OR divine bond class ability.
Benefit: When applying your enhancement bonus from your Training class feature or divine bond class feature, treat the available maximum enhancement bonus as 1 higher than normal. This does not allow you to exceed the maximum enhancement bonus of +10.
In addition, when you select an enhancement bonus you can choose from any bonus from the appropriate magic item charts (armor p.341, shields p.341, melee weapons p.345, ranged weapons p.346).
Special: If you have both the weapon training and divine bond class feature, this feat does not confer its benefit to both features, you must take the feat multiple times.
If you have both the weapon training and armor training class features, you must choose when taking this feat if it applies to your armor or weapons.
You can select this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you select this feat it applies to another class feature that you possess.
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A thought I had concerning Weapon/Armor Training. Everyone says that adding bigger numbers is not the way to help the fighter. So why not make the bonuses from these features enhancement bonuses and make the armor/weapon count as magical for effects like Shatter and the like, while still being extraordinary? This helps the fighters dependancy on his equipment.
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A thought I had concerning Weapon/Armor Training. Everyone says that adding bigger numbers is not the way to help the fighter. So why not make the bonuses from these features enhancement bonuses and make the armor/weapon count as magical for effects like Shatter and the like, while still being extraordinary? This helps the fighters dependancy on his equipment.
Disagree most strongly. The whole point is that these aren't magic tricks, they are the Fighter being a skillful warrior and replicating the effects of magic items without them being magic. If they are actual enhancement bonuses, then they have to a) be explained, and b) suppressed in anti-magic fields which is contrary to the point. Also, the Fighter is the one making this happen, not the weapon. So the weapon should have no special protections.
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Jal,
Quick question: How do you see the selection process working?
Does the selection at Level 9 overwrite the selection at level 5, or are they now both options? Could the Fighter have a bonus worth +1 at level 5 and then choose a +2 bonus at level 9 or would he have to wait until level 13 taking nothing at level 9?
My preference is that you can take a bonus equal to the maximum Training Bonus each time you get the appropriate training and that they form a suite options for the Fighter. Changing bonuses would require a move action and possibly a full round action to change grip, shift the armour slightly and get into the right mental stance for your maneuvres to have the new effect.
I'd also split your feat into two stackable feats with the same prerequisites. One adds to the bonus available, i.e. you can take higher level options and apply more effects at once. The other gives you another selection at the current bonus level and allows you to take the bonus from outside the normal list. Each can be taken multiple times (up to a maximum bonus of +10 [which would be evil if combined with magic weapons] *grins*).
Any thoughts?
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Disagree most strongly. The whole point is that these aren't magic tricks, they are the Fighter being a skillful warrior and replicating the effects of magic items without them being magic. If they are actual enhancement bonuses, then they have to a) be explained, and b) suppressed in anti-magic fields which is contrary to the point. Also, the Fighter is the one making this happen, not the weapon. So the weapon should have no special protections.
I never said they should be magic tricks. Just that for the purpose of game rule interaction, they should be treated as such. The fighter should be so skilled that he picks up the knife just laying on the ground and slaughters the DR/magic monster before him. He should put on the guards armor and get the exact same benefit if he were wearing his own. Adding another +5 to his bonuses isn't helping. Taking some of the strain for providing the recommended level of bonuses off his WBL is.
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Jal,
Quick question: How do you see the selection process working?Does the selection at Level 9 overwrite the selection at level 5, or are they now both options? Could the Fighter have a bonus worth +1 at level 5 and then choose a +2 bonus at level 9 or would he have to wait until level 13 taking nothing at level 9?
My preference is that you can take a bonus equal to the maximum Training Bonus each time you get the appropriate training and that they form a suite options for the Fighter. Changing bonuses would require a move action and possibly a full round action to change grip, shift the armour slightly and get into the right mental stance for your maneuvres to have the new effect.
I'd also split your feat into two stackable feats with the same prerequisites. One adds to the bonus available, i.e. you can take higher level options and apply more effects at once. The other gives you another selection at the current bonus level and allows you to take the bonus from outside the normal list. Each can be taken multiple times (up to a maximum bonus of +10 [which would be evil if combined with magic weapons] *grins*).
Any thoughts?
It's a total enhancement bonus equal to your current Training. Basically, say at level 5 he gets +1 and uses it to gain the "Keen" property on all Heavy Blades. At level 9 he can choose to add another +1 property (such as "Throwing") or could swap out Keen for a +2 property (such as "Wounding") and so forth.
Swapping the property during play would be a bit too powerful, overshadowing magic weapons, and would cause a good deal of book-keeping.
The feat thing requires some more work, I am inclined to agree to make it two stackable feats. I'm curious how people feel about exceeding the normal maximum of +10, since it isn't technically a magic enhancement. My original arrangement was for simplicity.
TriOmega, I think we are in overall agreement. But I'm kind of keen on the idea of the fighter using a normal sword to gain the bonuses. However, most likely he will have a magic sword and so it shouldn't be a huge problem.
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TriOmega, I think we are in overall agreement. But I'm kind of keen on the idea of the fighter using a normal sword to gain the bonuses....
I understand. I'm just thinking that making the weapon training bonus act as a extraordinary enhancement bonus, will let the fighter spend his gold on other equipment to make him more effective. He'll effectively have a magic weapon appropriate to his level in his hands no matter where he picks it up.
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TriOmega, I think we are in overall agreement. But I'm kind of keen on the idea of the fighter using a normal sword to gain the bonuses....I understand. I'm just thinking that making the weapon training bonus act as a extraordinary enhancement bonus, will let the fighter spend his gold on other equipment to make him more effective. He'll effectively have a magic weapon appropriate to his level in his hands no matter where he picks it up.
Ah, I see what you mean. You want Weapon Training +1 to count as having a +1 weapon. That would actually decrease the power of the class feature though, since it wouldn't stack with a magic weapon whereas it currently does.
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Ah, I see what you mean. You want Weapon Training +1 to count as having a +1 weapon. That would actually decrease the power of the class feature though, since it wouldn't stack with a magic weapon whereas it currently does.
Personally, I don't think the class feature itself is very useful. I can not back it up with playtesting, since I haven't had a chance to game in the last few months, let alone game with this rule. I actually agree with the crowd stating that giving fighters bigger numbers does not fix them. I like your proposal and will certainly keep it in mind for my own games, and I think you understand my position on things. I just wanted to make sure, so I think we can leave it at that. I think I'm dry on brilliant points to make at the moment. ^^
I think making this extraordinary instead of enhancement would be good. Go ahead and let it stack on a weapon that is already magical, the fighter class could use the bump and it's not so great of an ability that the wizard is going to cry that his favorite "Death-o-matic" spell isn't good enough anymore. Let's face it giving a fighter a better weapon and/or armor is not going to make things worse for any other class, and seeing as how any spell chucker can cast greater magic weapon and get a +n weapon I don't see them complaining too hard. Plus this will help give the fighter something special that no one else really gets.
If I knew that I wouldn't have to keep spending all my figher's wealth on getting the best weapon/armor/shield I could because I'm getting class features to help keep it at par I would enjoy the fighter more, and would stop looking for prestige classes to "fix the fighter".
I think that using this idea, and giving the fighter a bonus boost on the combat feats (an extra ability or bonus from the feat that you can only get by being a fighter of n level) would handle any complaints left on the fighter.
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Jal,
Quick question: How do you see the selection process working?Does the selection at Level 9 overwrite the selection at level 5, or are they now both options? Could the Fighter have a bonus worth +1 at level 5 and then choose a +2 bonus at level 9 or would he have to wait until level 13 taking nothing at level 9?
My preference is that you can take a bonus equal to the maximum Training Bonus each time you get the appropriate training and that they form a suite options for the Fighter. Changing bonuses would require a move action and possibly a full round action to change grip, shift the armour slightly and get into the right mental stance for your maneuvres to have the new effect.
I'd also split your feat into two stackable feats with the same prerequisites. One adds to the bonus available, i.e. you can take higher level options and apply more effects at once. The other gives you another selection at the current bonus level and allows you to take the bonus from outside the normal list. Each can be taken multiple times (up to a maximum bonus of +10 [which would be evil if combined with magic weapons] *grins*).
Any thoughts?
It's a total enhancement bonus equal to your current Training. Basically, say at level 5 he gets +1 and uses it to gain the "Keen" property on all Heavy Blades. At level 9 he can choose to add another +1 property (such as "Throwing") or could swap out Keen for a +2 property (such as "Wounding") and so forth.
Swapping the property during play would be a bit too powerful, overshadowing magic weapons, and would cause a good deal of book-keeping.
The feat thing requires some more work, I am inclined to agree to make it two stackable feats. I'm curious how people feel about exceeding the normal maximum of +10, since it isn't technically a magic enhancement. My original arrangement was for simplicity.
Sorry for the delay. The reason I suggested slightly swappable abilities is that otherwise you forget how to wield your weapon in a Keen way but learn how to wield it to Wound and can't go back to using it the old way. That causes a bit too much 'huh' for me. I'd prefer some ability to mix and match, but not much.
I can't see it adding much to the book-keeping as the Fighter will only have four weapon and 5 armour abilities to choose from, and if he's been going for maximum bonus enhancements each time, most of them won't stack together.
I can see the complaint that this is too powerful, though. It does give the Fighter a lot more choice than he has now. It could be retooled to be a once per day preparation, i.e. he has to make sure the weapons is slightly altered, practice the grip properly to make use of it. That would mean that each morning he'd choose from his very limited (6 weapon and 9 armour at 20th level does not seem overwhelming to me) selection and be good for the day.
And I'd keep the +10 maximum. If we're letting it stack with magic, which makes the most sense, +20 enhancements on one weapon/armour is quite enough.
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Hern. Well, originally I was thinking the +10 would be a hard total limit (magic+training) but that might underpower the ability. It just saves them money, while your way saves them money and lets them spend it if they want. Win/win.
As for the swapping, I am beginning to lean towards your daily preparation. I do like that flavour for warriors - no self-respecting warrior uses the same trick over and over again, no matter the opponent. I can buy the justification. Mechanically it does improve the ability, as the fighter can meet more challenges, but compared to a wizard the ability is not game breaking.