Suggested Paladin and Fighter Changes

[Matthew Vickrey]

Greetings, before I delve into the "meat" of my post I would like to state that I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons since first edition and have always been dissappointed with the way these two classes played out.

Also, I would like to commend Paizo for its work with these, and the other 9 featured classes. They have done a phenomenal job in regards to addressing many balance issues. Because of their somewhat similar roles, I felt it necessary to address my balance concerns in a single thread. Plus, after detailing my paladin changes, I'll need to post suggested fighter changes to help the class maintain its original flavor.

Without further exposition: my suggestion.

Paladin- I've always found this class somewhat lacking as a defensive martial class. Also, it's damage output (even against evil creatures) is pitiful at best. With the release of 3.0 some of these concerns were addressed, but they carried a hidden defect: in order to be an adequate paladin, a character had to have exceptional stats in almost all areas. My following suggestions will address these concerns.

Basics- Bump hit die up to d12 and gain a good will save. These changes bear a similarity to the Knight class in the PH2 and reflect the intended, defensive nature of the class.

Proficiencies- Add tower shield proficiency. See previous rationale.

Smite Evil- This is what many consider to be the signature feature of the class. But, many feel that it lacks the offensive punch. First, I would recommend that when smiting evil that the attack be considered good-aligned. Second, I would increase the extra damage from 1x paladin level to 2x.

Lay on Hands- This ability is easy to fix: increase the amount of HP restored with each use to 2x the paladin's class level. Before you begin thinking that this will overshadow the cleric's role as the primary healer, continue to read on.

Divine Health- Why not add an immunity to poisons as well? Monks receive something similar.

Spellcasting- Now, this will be by far the most controversial part of this post. With the paladin's many immunities, ability to heal HP and adverse effects with lay on hands, ability to channel energy, and the ability to deal significant damage to evil creatures why have spells at all? Of the 11 base classes listed, 7 are spellcasters. If the previous changes I've suggested are made then the paladin has little use for spellcasting. I feel that this will not only emphasize the martial element of the class, but will prevent encroachment on the territory of clerics and druids.

Mettle- I never understood why paladins didn't get this class feature.

Now for the fighter changes-
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Fighter- Though most players have optimized their PC fighters by investing solely in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, this class was not meant to be the feral warrior. That role falls to barbarian.

What (ideally) separates the fighter and barbarian is that the fighter's combat prowess is the result of discipline and training, where as (as I mentioned earlier) the barbarian is a fierce, feral savage. The following changes will emphasize the fighter as the master of the battlefield, increase the number of attributes the class will benefit from, and re-establish its tactical flavor:

Proficiencies- Same, except as noted below.

"At 1st level, a fighter may choose one exotic weapon proficiency per point of Intelligence bonus he has (if any). Once these choices have been made they cannot be changed. If the fighter’s Intelligence bonus increases at a later time, it does not entitle him to an additional choice."

New Class features:

Combat Initiative (Ex): At 1th level, the fighter receives a +1 competence bonus to all initiative checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level, and by an additional +1 every five levels thereafter (10, 15, 20).

Combat Tactician (Ex): A fighter’s knowledge of battle tactics is unmatched, perfected through years of practice. Beginning at 4th level, the fighter adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to bull-rush, disarm, grapple and trip attempts and to all rolls made to resist those maneuvers.

Veteran’s Eye (Ex): Countless battles have taught the fighter how to better strike his enemies’ weak points. Starting at 8th level, a fighter adds his Intelligence bonus to rolls made to confirm critical hits and also adds this bonus to the damage dealt by critical hits. This bonus damage is not multiplied. Creatures with no discernable weak points (abberations, constructs, and some undead) are not effected by this ability.

Critical Opportunity (Ex): At 12th level, a fighter can employ a quick maneuver to gain the upper hand in an engagement after dealing a powerful blow. After dealing a successful critical hit to an opponent, the fighter can make a free disarm or trip attempt. Regardless of the choice made, this action does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability may not be used against the same opponent more than once per encounter.
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Please evaluate these suggestions and give any constructive feedback.

[Arnim Thayer]

I can see you are going for the ideal of a smart fighter, a tactical warrior.

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

"At 1st level, a fighter may choose one exotic weapon proficiency per point of Intelligence bonus he has (if any). Once these choices have been made they cannot be changed. If the fighter’s Intelligence bonus increases at a later time, it does not entitle him to an additional choice."

While I like the idea of a free Exotic Weapon proficiency, the fighter class already has this option due to Fighter Bouns feats at 1st level, if a player chooses. A choice to be trained in an unusual weapon should be up to the player, as is fitting with the character. This might not fit all Fighter builds, so it shouldn't be pushed as a class feature.

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

Combat Initiative (Ex): At 1th level, the fighter receives a +1 competence bonus to all initiative checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level, and by an additional +1 every five levels thereafter (10, 15, 20).

I agree that the Fighter should see some bonus to Initiative of some sort. I don't know if i agree that it should be based on INT, though. Maybe as a part of the Weapon Training class feature.

Personally, I plan to "fix" Initiative in my home game by using the SAGA approach; make it a skill available to the martial classes and Rogue (everyone else has spells from 1st level on).

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

Combat Tactician (Ex): A fighter’s knowledge of battle tactics is unmatched, perfected through years of practice. Beginning at 4th level, the fighter adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to bull-rush, disarm, grapple and trip attempts and to all rolls made to resist those maneuvers.

I think that the Fighter should have some form of bonus for CMBs. I expect to see the Weapon Training bonus fix this though.

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

Veteran’s Eye (Ex): Countless battles have taught the fighter how to better strike his enemies’ weak points. Starting at 8th level, a fighter adds his Intelligence bonus to rolls made to confirm critical hits and also adds this bonus to the damage dealt by critical hits. This bonus damage is not multiplied. Creatures with no discernable weak points (abberations, constructs, and some undead) are not effected by this ability.

Again, this could be covered by Weapon Training without INT being involved. Maybe some of these could be converted into Fighter feats based on Weapon Traing and INT.

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

Critical Opportunity (Ex): At 12th level, a fighter can employ a quick maneuver to gain the upper hand in an engagement after dealing a powerful blow. After dealing a successful critical hit to an opponent, the fighter can make a free disarm or trip attempt. Regardless of the choice made, this action does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability may not be used against the same opponent more than once per encounter.

More than any of the others, this seems like a feat as written. Maybe as a part of the "Improved X" line of feats.

All in all good mechanics for the Fighter, even if I don't think they should be set in stone class features.

[Arnim Thayer]

Looking back at the Fighter portion of your post, I think that any of these could be made into excellent Fighter Talents, much as the Rogue has.

As a big fan of what Star Wars SAGA has presented mechanically, I think that if a radical change was made to 3.5 (or Pathfinder), that the Talent Tree mechanic would be ideal, allowing true customization in any given class, as well as end less option for expasion. Suggestions like these would fall under a Smart Fighter talent tree.

[Lord Aerthos Pendragon]

Generally speaking, I really liked what I read in your post. But for discussion I'll discuss the classes (and proposals) individually.

-PALADIN-
*I'm neutral on the hit die increase, but definitely in favor of the good Will save. I don't know why a Paladin doesn't have it.

*100% behind you on the Tower Shield Proficiency as well.

*I've also discussed aligning Smite Evil. Giving the class the option of Smite Chaos (with making the attack lawful aligned) I think would be a nice flavor as well. The damage increase to 2 x Paladin level should help alleviate some woes at higher level. Personally, I'm also behind not losing the attempt if you miss.

*I have also suggested increasing Lay on Hands to 2 x Paladin level per use, especially if the Paladin cannot spend multiple charges at once for mid-combat healing. Good thinking.

*I'm neutral on the poison immunity.

*I'm only slightly with you on the spellcasting. I think the Paladin would do just fine if you eliminate the healing-related spells on his spell list. Make it something similar to the Ranger spell list where each spell does something to make the Paladin better at his job as a holy warrior. I'm also in favor of spontaneous casting for the Paladin (& Ranger) since they have so few spells per day.

*I'm neutral on Mettle.

-FIGHTER-
*I'm with Arnim on the exotic weapons, fighters have plenty of feats, they can spend one if the player wants to use an exotic weapon.

*I'm in favor of "Combat Initiative", but I don't think it should outshadow a Rogue. Maybe just make it a straight +2 initiative bonus.

*100% behind the "Combat Tactician" ability, but maybe have it work off of Wisdom instead? Then the character benefits not only from this feat but on Sense Motive checks to avoid being feinted against in combat.

*I would also suggest moving "Veteran's Eye" to use Wisdom. Otherwise, very cool.

*I'm also in favor of "Critical Opportunity", but as a feat in the disarm/trip/bull rush feat trees. Instead, at 12th level the Fighter gains ImpDis/ImpTrip/ImpB-Rush; if he already has one (or more) then he can elect to take Critical Opportunity for that particular combat maneuver.

All in all, great ideas!

[Matthew Vickrey]

Thank you for all of the constructive feedback so far. When trying to make the paladin a more capable (and defensively oriented) melee combatant it is important to make sure that the Fighter still maintains his lead in the combat niche`.

If the suggestions I made for the fighter would work better as new feats or talents, then what would be a better approach to ensuring the fighter never loses his place as the master-of-arms?

[Montalve]

Lord Aerthos Pendragon wrote:

Generally speaking, I really liked what I read in your post. But for discussion I'll discuss the classes (and proposals) individually.

i agree with your comments, except in one case

i would take the list of spells and will use a few of them as spell like abilities or enhace other abuilities, like making Aura of Good a real defensive property, or using smite evil/chaos as a continuos damage vs evil and/or chaos instead of a single hit once in a while

[Lord Aerthos Pendragon]

Matthew Vickrey wrote:

If the suggestions I made for the fighter would work better as new feats or talents, then what would be a better approach to ensuring the fighter never loses his place as the master-of-arms?

I really only think that the last Fighter ability you mentioned should be made into feats. Then at 12th level I think giving the Fighter either a flat bonus to his CMB or one of the Improved [combat manuever] feats (1)is potentially one less feat the character needs to expend, and (2)re-asserts the fact that the fighter is a superior master-at-arms

[Snorter]

UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.

Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!