Somebody has probably asked & answered this question. What effect do bloodlines that provide claws have on Monks unarmed damage?
As far as I know (and our group, at least, we always play it thus) Claws are natural weapons, and Monk's attacks are Improved Unarmed attacks. They are different.
So, you can't flurry with the claws, as they aren't your special hands, or special monk weapons. A DM might let you train to specially use your claws as monk weapons, but that is a very easily breakable rule. Similarly your Unarmed Attacks shouldn't get the extra fire damage if you get it with enough Sorc levels.
Also your claws won't go up in damage with your Monk levels, only with your Sorcerer ones.
Somebody has probably asked & answered this question. What effect do bloodlines that provide claws have on Monks unarmed damage?
I have exactly that case with one of my characters, a monk/sorcerer. As far as I can tell, they don't affect each other at all; the sorcerer claw abilities specify that it takes a full round action to do two (primary) claw attacks, so by a strict reading you can't do a kick with two secondary claw attacks (like a lizardfolk monk could, say).
Bummer there goes a villain....hmmm the Aesthetic feats I wonder if I could justify the combination.
Somebody has probably asked & answered this question. What effect do bloodlines that provide claws have on Monks unarmed damage?
None, which is the same reason why you will never see a dragon monk.
Natural Attacks (claws, bites, slams), Improved Natural Attack, and the Multiattack tree specifically are a separate system from a monk's attack routine. The same holds true for creatures like ghouls or wights, whose attacks carry an effect. Really cheesed me off when I was designing an empire of sentient undead for a campaign world, that I couldn't give wights and mummies levels of monk to make them terrifying whirlwinds of doom within RAW. I houseruled that slam abilities carry over to monk unarmed damage, though, and adjudicated that a natural slam as the only natural attack just meant you had a slighly out of step size bonus or additional element of danger to your unarmed attacks. This was also the campaign where I used zombie giant octopi to great effect, despite also failing one of the rules of the zombie template, in that they lack a skeletal system.
Somebody has probably asked & answered this question. What effect do bloodlines that provide claws have on Monks unarmed damage?None, which is the same reason why you will never see a dragon monk.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm considering taking my monk into the Dragon Disciple class. Four levels of Dragon Disciple give +4 Str (i.e., +2 to attack and damage) and +2 AC, which is basically as good (or better) than 4 levels of monk give (although that's debatable). Plus he gets two claws and a bite that he can use as secondary natural weapons and so he could flurry natural attacks and claw/claw/bite on the side.
BUT...the sorcerer claws specifically say they take a full round to use, so it's possible that you can't mix them in with a flurry of blows as secondary attacks.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm considering taking my monk into the Dragon Disciple class. Four levels of Dragon Disciple give +4 Str (i.e., +2 to attack and damage) and +2 AC, which is basically as good (or better) than 4 levels of monk give (although that's debatable). Plus he gets two claws and a bite that he can use as secondary natural weapons and so he could flurry natural attacks and claw/claw/bite on the side.BUT...the sorcerer claws specifically say they take a full round to use, so it's possible that you can't mix them in with a flurry of blows as secondary attacks.
The monk flurry of blows is considered a subset of the normal full attack action. Natural Weapons are a separate system, and I saw nothing in RAW saying that the Dragon Disciple co-opts the normal rules for Natural Weapons. In fact, Dragon Apotheosis rather suggests that it doesn't.
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm).
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A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the claws are the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-dragon retains this ability. A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses a claw when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.
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Improved Unarmed Strike [General]
Benefit
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.
What I read from somewhere on WoTC's site, is that Improved Unarmed Strike's armed=weapon, and therefore a monk's unarmed attack are considered weapons, except when contending with enchantment et al. And since the claw is a natural weapon, it will never iterate with a full attack or flurry of blows.
In the D&D 3.5 FAQ, there's a detailed example of a centaur (or maybe a lizardfolk?) monk combining natural weapons and a flurry of blows.
This has come up a few times and no one has ever really answered it. (Given that Cust serv and FAQ aren't really official and there is no errata). I'm hopeful Jason will answer it eventually. I don't think the beta does.
The real issue is: When a monk flurries, can it also make use of "two weapon fighting" or "Multiattack". If yes, then a monk with a tail and a quarterstaff could
full attack.: flurry -> quarterstaff -> tail. They would, of course, assume all the relevant penalties for doing so.
The language is currently ambiguous. Some folk say YEs you can! some folk say No, you can't! PRPG needs to end the argument- one way or another.
-S
Well a monk's unarmed strike is a natural weapon so Improved Natural Attack is often used legitimately in monk builds. I would rule that the sorcerer with claws could choose wether to do his monk unarmed damage or his claws damage but they would not stack.A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).
It's a mess, to be sure. My read is that it might allow Improved Natural Attack, but not allow the Multiattack feat tree. With that said, I have to wonder what exactly the attack sequence would be like since flurry is so specific as to when it can be used. An expansion of the flurry rules to unarmed, natural, or monk weapons, or clarification on Multiattack/TWF would be ideal.
What effect do bloodlines that provide claws have on Monks unarmed damage?None, which is the same reason why you will never see a dragon monk.
Natural Attacks (claws, bites, slams), Improved Natural Attack, and the Multiattack tree specifically are a separate system from a monk's attack routine.
Well a monk's unarmed strike is a natural weapon so Improved Natural Attack is often used legitimately in monk builds. I would rule that the sorcerer with claws could choose wether to do his monk unarmed damage or his claws damage but they would not stack.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured
weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects
that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural
weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).
Hmm house rule - base monk unarmed damage remains the same. The monk can choose bashing or slashing damage (open-hand/kick or claw) - any bonus's provided to damage from sorcerer levels stack. Improved Natural Attack is allowable
I houseruled that slam abilities carry over to monk unarmed damage, though
I made a feat for that, which scared hell out of my players when I threw some ghast monks at them in Scuttlecove.
In the D&D 3.5 FAQ, there's a detailed example of a centaur (or maybe a lizardfolk?) monk combining natural weapons and a flurry of blows.
Okay, I found it, and it was the secondary natural attacks of the Centaur (flurry,hoof/hoof), only applicable because the centaur received his secondary natural attacks with weapon use. The half dragon appears to operate under the same rule, so it would be fairly reasonable to assume flurry, bite, and maybe claw for a Half Dragon Monk, according to this interpretation of RAW. What is odd about the Dragon Disciple, though, is that it flips the secondary/primary natural weapons of the Half Dragon template, which makes cross application of rules just weird, as nothing is mentioned about using non-claw/bite weapons in the class description.
That doesn't affect the Sorceror with a claw granting bloodline, though, as the claws would have to be considered primary natural attacks, and not secondary, which would make them unusable and/or meaningless with flurry or anything in the hands. It would certainly be worth bringing up when the Sorceror design forum opens up.
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Between the FAQ, Rules of the Game, and the rules it is easy to get confused about this.
It says that you cannot use natural attacks with a flurry of blows.
Apparently what it means is that you cannot use any natural attacks to make the flurry of blows attacks, but that you can use your natural attacks during the same round that you use a flurry of blows to attack. That distinction is very easily confused if you do not keep in mind that you do not need to use a specific body part to make the attacks with a flurry of blows. If you have a claw attack, you cannot punch a person as well. But with improved unarmed strike and flurry of blows you can just kick the person instead. Or, if you have a rake attack, head butt the person. Or if you have a gore attack, just use your elbow.
So a properly lizarded-out sorcerer/monk type could conceivably wind up with flurry/flurry/flurry iterative/claw/claw/bite/tail/wing. And hopefully with all of those attacks he will squeeze at least one threat in and do some damage.
So a properly lizarded-out sorcerer/monk type could conceivably wind up with flurry/flurry/flurry iterative/claw/claw/bite/tail/wing
What kind of lizardfolk has a tail attack and one wing??
You're right -- all of the rules are a bit confusing and sometimes contradictory. Personally, I go with: "If a weapon attack could fit in your attack routine, you can use a monk's unarmed strike instead."
So a properly lizarded-out sorcerer/monk type could conceivably wind up with flurry/flurry/flurry iterative/claw/claw/bite/tail/wingWhat kind of lizardfolk has a tail attack and one wing??
You're right -- all of the rules are a bit confusing and sometimes contradictory. Personally, I go with: "If a weapon attack could fit in your attack routine, you can use a monk's unarmed strike instead."
Any Large true dragon, or Form of the Dragon II, which would require Sorceror 15, would actually be Flurry/Flurry/Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail, by some interpretations. Assuming you don't apply the altogether reasonable interpretation of fitting a weapon attack into the attack routine being a requirement of flurry and flurry iterative.
That does still beg the question of the original poster, though.
The sorceror's claws are considered primary natural weapons, so I would assume Claw would be a valid single attack, rather than having to only Claw/Claw as a full attack. Since in the RAW, there is no ability to have the Claw as a secondary natural weapon, I would say no to using the Sorcerous bloodline Claws as an addition to the flurry. I'd consider it okay if a player wanted to use their claw damage type in a flurry.
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What kind of lizardfolk has a tail attack and one wing??
That would be in non-OGL, WotC supplements, or by creating something new to grant the same.
Wings tend to be one of those "peculiar" abilities, appearing both as one buffet per wing and one combined wing swat.You're right -- all of the rules are a bit confusing and sometimes contradictory. Personally, I go with: "If a weapon attack could fit in your attack routine, you can use a monk's unarmed strike instead."
I think the other way would work better.
"In addition to attacking with a weapon, you may use any natural attacks you have that involve limbs not required to use your weapon. These are all treated as secondary natural attacks."Or perhaps even a firmer structure of the hierarchy.