After sending an e-mail to one of my players about potential feats for his paladin, and what would work for his character concept, reading through Complete Champion something hit me.
I know its not OGL, but it set me upon an idea. Awesome smite allows you to do three different things (but only one at a time) when you smite using power attack (overcome damage reduction, "trip" a foe for free by knocking them over, or ignore their miss chance, if they have one).
This, along with the modified barbarian rage and rage powers got me thinking . . . what if paladins got smite effects as they leveled up that they could apply along with the cha bonus to hit and the damage per level?
Perhaps every level where the paladin gains a new use of smite for the day, they could choose a smite effect, and you could have effects that allowed a free trip, stunning, dispelling effects, etc.
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After sending an e-mail to one of my players about potential feats for his paladin, and what would work for his character concept, reading through Complete Champion something hit me.
I know its not OGL, but it set me upon an idea. Awesome smite allows you to do three different things (but only one at a time) when you smite using power attack (overcome damage reduction, "trip" a foe for free by knocking them over, or ignore their miss chance, if they have one).
This, along with the modified barbarian rage and rage powers got me thinking . . . what if paladins got smite effects as they leveled up that they could apply along with the cha bonus to hit and the damage per level?
Perhaps every level where the paladin gains a new use of smite for the day, they could choose a smite effect, and you could have effects that allowed a free trip, stunning, dispelling effects, etc.
You know I was planning on taking awesome smite and I was trying to think how could I add it to the game. Your suggestion wins the internet. I love this idea and am going to link it to every thread that has suggestions for fixing smite.
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So instead of just saying its great lets actually create some I'll start
Stunning Smite: At fourth level a paladin may choose to make stunning smites. When he hits with an attack in this round the enemy struck must make a fort save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod. If he fails he is stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Overwhelming Smite: At first level when a paladin hits with a smite during the round he gets a free bullrush attempt. This does not provoke an AoO if succesful he may make a free 5 foot step to follow as long as it is not difficult terrain.
Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that hits with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod
Frightening Smite: At first level a paladin may choose to make a frightening smite. When he succesfully hits with his melee attack the enemy may make a will save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod or is shaken for 1d6 rounds
When a paladin gets a new smite he is able to choose another effect and hopefully there will be enough for each level that no two paladins would look alike. Can others think of some, I mean with mine you could have a Greater dispelling smite at level 11 if you already took dispelling smite. C'mon everybody lets see what we can come up with.
I had some ideas at work a well, but its been pretty busy this week, and its game night tonight. That having been said, a few of them on your list were on mine as well.
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So instead of just saying its great lets actually create some I'll start
Stunning Smite: At fourth level a paladin may choose to make stunning smites. When he hits with an attack in this round the enemy struck must make a fort save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod. If he fails he is stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Overwhelming Smite: At first level when a paladin hits with a smite during the round he gets a free bullrush attempt. This does not provoke an AoO if succesful he may make a free 5 foot step to follow as long as it is not difficult terrain.
Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that hits with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod
Frightening Smite: At first level a paladin may choose to make a frightening smite. When he succesfully hits with his melee attack the enemy may make a will save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod or is shaken for 1d6 rounds
When a paladin gets a new smite he is able to choose another effect and hopefully there will be enough for each level that no two paladins would look alike. Can others think of some, I mean with mine you could have a Greater dispelling smite at level 11 if you already took dispelling smite. C'mon everybody lets see what we can come up with.
Great ideas! I definitely want to playtest these plus the Light-bringer and Divine Might concepts from the other threads.
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Hampering Smite: At first level a paladin may make a hampering smite. If he hits with this smite the enemy makes a fort save DC= to 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod. if he fails his speed is reduced by 10ft, and he may not make 5 foot steps.
Impeeding Smite: At 7th level, if the paladin already has Hampering Smite, he may make an impeeding strike if he hits the enemy gets a fort save DC=15 plus half character level+ cha mod. if the enemy fails he may only move at half speed and may not take 5 foot steps
Debilitating Smite: At 11th level, if the paladin already has impeeding smite he may make a debilitating smite, if he hits the enemy gets a save DC=20 + half character level+ cha mod. If the enemy fails he may only move 5ft in a round (this does not count as a 5 foot step) and may not use full round actions (standard and move only and if he moves only 5 feet)
Breaching Smite: at 7th level a paladin may make a breaching smite. He ignores any DR or hardness when making his attacks.
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I should mention that these are on top of the normal boost to hit and damage and even with rider effects the damage needs to be increased IMHO.Agreed, perhaps something along the lines of 2x Paladin level, increase the Critical Multiplier by +1 and Bane Damage to creatures with the Evil subtype.
I'm with you on the first one definitely. Heck with my pick weilding knight I wouldn't even mind the second (as long as it stacked with imp. crit or keen. I'm not a fan of adding another weapon property ability to the paladin though, it's just me but it doesn't feel right. some people have mentioned plain bonus damage like an extra d4 or d6, I don't really know, but I would be satisfied with the first two and rider effects as is.
I like them, in the other thread I had mentioned effects like bane and doom being good low level smite talents. You could really go crazy and make whole talent trees, but let's say we're not going to go that far... The capstone is at level 20 the smite does a Banishment too. So that's a 6th level effect, at level 20. So having effects at every 4 levels would work. Let's say 2, 5, 9, 13, 17, 20. So to balance it, we just need some good level 1-5 spell effects a pally would like. And to keep with the paladin-y theme, they should be tuned to outsiders, undead, etc.
All smites: count as lawful and good
L2: Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil
L5: Rule of Law: Sound Burst if target is chaotic
L9: Dispelling Smite: Dispel Magic if target is evil spellcaster
L13: Smite of Power: Divine Power on paladin if target is evil divine caster
L17: Truedeath Smite: Disruption (as Disrupting Weapon) if target is evil undead
L20: Holy Champion: Banishment if target is evil outsider
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Smite effects would be a great new mechanic for the Paladin, making them playable as well as customizable.
In my game, my playtesters hesitated with the Pathfinder Barbarian at first do to the percieved needless complexity caused by both the Rage Points and Rage Powers mechanics from Alpha.
Since introducing them to Option 2a (the alternate Rage system Jason posted here), my players have taken a true shine to the Pathfinder Barbarian. So much so that I now have one in each of my playtests, the only class that both groups have!
I think that a revamped version of Smite with Smite efects would go over well, making the Paladin a more popular choice.
I think this would be an excellent compliment to the Rage ability of the Barbarian. Lord knows, you knights need some capacity for customization beyond just the general feats all characters get...
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So instead of just saying its great lets actually create some I'll start
Stunning Smite: At fourth level a paladin may choose to make stunning smites. When he hits with an attack in this round the enemy struck must make a fort save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod. If he fails he is stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Overwhelming Smite: At first level when a paladin hits with a smite during the round he gets a free bullrush attempt. This does not provoke an AoO if succesful he may make a free 5 foot step to follow as long as it is not difficult terrain.
Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that hits with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod
Frightening Smite: At first level a paladin may choose to make a frightening smite. When he succesfully hits with his melee attack the enemy may make a will save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod or is shaken for 1d6 rounds
When a paladin gets a new smite he is able to choose another effect and hopefully there will be enough for each level that no two paladins would look alike. Can others think of some, I mean with mine you could have a Greater dispelling smite at level 11 if you already took dispelling smite. C'mon everybody lets see what we can come up with.
I like all of these, though I would move stunning smite up a few levels if it has a duration of 1d4 rounds. I could add:
Smite of Final Judgment: At 15th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + CHA) or be disintegrated.
Wracking Smite: At 6th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creatuer with his smiting attack, the target must save (etc.) or be nauseated for 1 round, wracked by the agony of its own sin turning upon it.
Brilliant Smite: At 4th level, hit with a smite, save (etc.) or be blinded for 1 round as the smiting blow erupts in a cascade of holy light. Any evil creatures within 10 feet of the target are dazzled for 1 round (no save).
You might also add a mechanic that, rather than simply lasting for 1 round, allow a target that fails the initial save to make a save as a free action at the END of its turn to throw off the effect. That way, if it fails you get at least 1 round of effect, but it may stick to em and get em for longer.
Not as simple, though. Sometimes simple is best.
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I like them, in the other thread I had mentioned effects like bane and doom being good low level smite talents. You could really go crazy and make whole talent trees, but let's say we're not going to go that far... The capstone is at level 20 the smite does a Banishment too. So that's a 6th level effect, at level 20. So having effects at every 4 levels would work. Let's say 2, 5, 9, 13, 17, 20. So to balance it, we just need some good level 1-5 spell effects a pally would like. And to keep with the paladin-y theme, they should be tuned to outsiders, undead, etc.
All smites: count as lawful and good
L1: Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil
L4: Rule of Law: Sound Burst if target is chaotic
L7: Dispelling Smite: Dispel Magic if target is evil spellcaster
L13: Smite of Power: Divine Power on paladin if target is evil divine caster
L16: Truedeath Smite: Disruption (as Disrupting Weapon) if target is evil undead
L20: Holy Champion: Banishment if target is evil outsider
Noooo! Sorry to yell, but you can't start the effects at level two, that makes a level 1 paladin suck the same as it has since 3.0 started and makes the Pally cry and god kill a kitten. As such to keep with the trend of having them start at 1st level and go get new ones every time you gain a smite it would look like this
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I like all of these, though I would move stunning smite up a few levels if it has a duration of 1d4 rounds.
Thank you, maybe the 4th level smite has it last one round followed by
Improved stunning smite: A 7th level paladin with the stunning smite ability may make an improved stunning smite. This ability functions just like Stunning Smite except that the save is 15+ 1/2 level + cha mod, and the duration lasts 1d4 rounds.
I didn't have the class available to me to look at when I first posted these, but I really think for simplicities sake that you should just get to choose a new smite effect every time you would get a new smite.
as such the abilities would look like this...
I could add:
Smite of Final Judgment: At 16th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + CHA) or be disintegrated.
Wracking Smite: At 7thlevel, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creatuer with his smiting attack, the target must save (etc.) or be nauseated for 1 round, wracked by the agony of its own sin turning upon it.
Brilliant Smite: At 4th level, hit with a smite, save (etc.) or be blinded for 1 round as the smiting blow erupts in a cascade of holy light. Any evil creatures within 10 feet of the target are dazzled for 1 round (no save).
hope you don't mind me making the changes, I love what you came up with.
You might also add a mechanic that, rather than simply lasting for 1 round, allow a target that fails the initial save to make a save as a free action at the END of its turn to throw off the effect. That way, if it fails you get at least 1 round of effect, but it may stick to em and get em for longer.Not as simple, though. Sometimes simple is best.
Actually I think it's a cool idea. However I also like the idea I've expressed with some of my Smite trees, that you can take improved versions for harder saves and extended durations or you can take several different low level effects, however you would choose to build your pally.
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Actually I think it's a cool idea. However I also like the idea I've expressed with some of my Smite trees, that you can take improved versions for harder saves and extended durations or you can take several different low level effects, however you would choose to build your pally.
That reminds me of the some suggested 4e Paladin power enhancement feats that I saw on EN World recently. With that said, I like how the various suggestions on the Paizo boards can allow players to customize their paladin characters.
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A question (yes. maybe I'm a bit slow...): would those be "automatic" improvements of the skmite evil ability, or would they be like the rage powers (you can choose them from a list)?
I'm asking because I think the latter would improve customization and a player's choices.
Like rage powers, when you reached a level where you got a new smite you would be able to choose an accompanying rider effect. The list will be longer than seven (hopefully at least double that 14 or more) that way no two paladins built would have to be the same mechanically, which in 3.0 the only variance on the paladin was what spells you selected and feats.
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Like rage powers, when you reached a level where you got a new smite you would be able to choose an accompanying rider effect. The list will be longer than seven (hopefully at least double that 14 or more) that way no two paladins built would have to be the same mechanically, which in 3.0 the only variance on the paladin was what spells you selected and feats.
Excellent!
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Like rage powers, when you reached a level where you got a new smite you would be able to choose an accompanying rider effect. The list will be longer than seven (hopefully at least double that 14 or more) that way no two paladins built would have to be the same mechanically, which in 3.0 the only variance on the paladin was what spells you selected and feats.A question (yes. maybe I'm a bit slow...): would those be "automatic" improvements of the skmite evil ability, or would they be like the rage powers (you can choose them from a list)?
I'm asking because I think the latter would improve customization and a player's choices.
Just what i wanted to know. In that case... I am Jacopo Veronese, and I approve this message. :-D
I don't know when a paladin gets his or her extra smites as they go up in level, so I'll ask lastknightleft to make them go at the right level, but I have:
Focused Smite: The smite ignores soft cover
Unstoppable Smite: The smite ignores hard cover
Seeking Smite: The smite ignores concealment less than total
Unerring Smite: The smite ignores total concealment
Chain of Smiting: The smite continues beyond the first target to affect another evil creature within 10' of the paladin's choosing. Only smite damage (and any smite effects from this thread that affected the first creature) is carried over, and if the paladin chooses a non-evil creature the chain is wasted.
Wave of Smiting: The smite sends out a wave of positive energy, dealing 1d6/2 paladin levels of damage (minimum 1d6) to all evil creatures within 10', plus any non-damage smite effects that affected the first creature.
Also, I recommend upping the smite damage to 1d6 for every 2 paladin levels, minimum 1d6. This makes the Chain of Smiting ability worthwhile.
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I don't know when a paladin gets his or her extra smites as they go up in level, so I'll ask lastknightleft to make them go at the right level, but I have:
Focused Smite: At first level the paladin may make a focused smite, this smite ignores soft cover
Unstoppable Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has focused smite he may make an unstoppable smite, this smite ignores all cover
Seeking Smite: At first level the paladin may make a seeking smite, this smite ignores concealment less than total
Unerring Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has Seeking smite he may make an Unerring smite, this smite ignores all concealment
Chain of Smiting: At 7th level the paladin may make a chain of smiting. The paladin may choose a first level smite effect and make an attack, if the smite hits the smite may continue beyond the first target to affect another evil creature within 10' of the paladin's choosing. Only smite damage (and the chosen smite effect) is carried over, and if the paladin chooses a non-evil creature the chain is wasted.
Wave of Smiting: At 13th level if the paladin has chain of smiting as a full round action he may make a wave of smiting. He may choose up to a 4th level rider effect and sends out a wave of positive energy, dealing smite damage to all evil creatures within 10', plus any non-damage smite effect chosen.
Also, I recommend upping the smite damage to 1d6 for every 2 paladin levels, minimum 1d6. This makes the Chain of Smiting ability worthwhile.
How does that look?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Like rage powers, when you reached a level where you got a new smite you would be able to choose an accompanying rider effect. The list will be longer than seven (hopefully at least double that 14 or more) that way no two paladins built would have to be the same mechanically, which in 3.0 the only variance on the paladin was what spells you selected and feats.A question (yes. maybe I'm a bit slow...): would those be "automatic" improvements of the skmite evil ability, or would they be like the rage powers (you can choose them from a list)?
I'm asking because I think the latter would improve customization and a player's choices.
I think this is a reasonable notion:
1. To have you choose a new 'rider' ability each time you get a new smite.
2. This also reminds me of the Warlock and his invocations that buff up his Eldritch Blast. The EB's base damage goes up independently, but every couple levels you can take a new blast invocation and make it do more stuff when you use it.
3. There should be a caveat that you can only use one smite power at a time.
4. In response to the upthread question about what level it would be good to get a multi-round stunning effect with smite, my thought is this: A one-round stun is a nice effect, a la Stunning Fist. Basically, it makes the target lose a turn, so they can't go until you go again. A multi-round stun moves it from "lose a turn" to "probable encounter ender." I saw this in game play with a monk character who had Stunning Fist, of course, and Pain Touch, which adds a round of nauseated AFTER the round of stun. Nauseated is not as bad as stun, but it's still no spells, no attacks, no SLAs, none of that good old fashioned cheatin' that we want our bad guys to do. It was a pretty hardcore effect.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with PCs being able to do that, especially when it's just a few times a day; my contention would be that it should be significantly higher level than a one-round stun effect (which I would be fine at happening at lower levels, even like at 1st or 4th). I think 7th is fine. Maybe 10th, given that stun is such a good effect, but I could go with 7th. It's okay for the paladin to have nice things... :)
<Note Section> Because reading through this thread got a little hard, I figured I'd compile all the suggestions, and the latest adjustment suggested to them. Anything that's not a straight copy-paste or a minor grammar fix that was bothering me, like corrections I immediately saw in verbage or the like, will be in bold to easily differentiate it from the quoted parts. I swapped any instances of "hits" with "deals damage" that caused an immediate effect based upon damaging the opponent. There is a precedent for activated abilities tripping off of damage dealt, due to things like DR or immunities, hence the change. I left it intact in the places I felt you wouldn't necessarily have to hurt the target to effect them (Bull rush, etc). Feel free to agree/disagree, but please mention why.
I'm going to operate under the assumption that you can pick any of the lower level smite powers instead of one that must be taken at that level, sort of like a "These aren't your choices at these levels, but your minimum level needed to select them" type thing, at levels 1,4,7,11,13,16,20 as currently listed to the abilities. I might suggest changing Holy Champion to 19 to reflect the levels you gain smite advancement of 1,4,7,10,13,16,19 instead (and the name to Banishing Smite).
Hope I got everything everyone posted.
WARNING: WALL OF TEXT AHEAD
Take if from here guys :)
</note section>
Level 1 - Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil <- DC?
- Hampering Smite: At first level a paladin may make a hampering smite. If he deals damage with this smite the enemy must make a fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod. If he fails his speed is reduced by 10ft, and he may not make 5 foot steps. Explanatory Note: This is for the paladin sick of enemies just running away from him because he is in heavy armor.
- Frightening Smite: At first level a paladin may choose to make a frightening smite. If he successfully deals damagewith his smite the enemy must make a will save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod or is shaken for 1d6 rounds. I'd personally change this to 1d4 rounds, as a first level ability it would be in line with the spell Cause Fear in terms of power.
- Overwhelming Smite: At first level when a paladin hits with a smite (deleted) he gets a free bullrush attempt against the target of his smite. This does not provoke an AoO, if successful he may make a free 5 foot step to follow as long as it is not difficult terrain.
- Focused Smite: At first level the paladin may make a focused smite, this smite ignores soft cover. What's "soft" cover?
- Seeking Smite: At first level the paladin may make a seeking smite, this smite ignores concealment less than total. Is there a way to get this type effect earlier than 3 or 4 any other way? May need to be upped in level.
Level 2 - Nothing Suggested
Level 3 - Nothing Suggested
Level 4 - Rule of Law: Sound Burst if target is chaotic <- DC?
- Brilliant Smite: At 4th level a paladin may attempt to hit a foe with a Brilliant Smite. If the smite hits, the target must make a save or be blinded for 1 round as the smiting blow erupts in a cascade of holy light. Any evil creatures within 10 feet of the target are dazzled for 1 round (no save). <- DC for blind needed? I'm assuming it's a fortitude save, to match the Blindness/Deafness second level spell.
- Stunning Smite: At fourth level a paladin may choose to make stunning smites. When he hits with an attack in this round the enemy struck must make a fort save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod. If he fails he is stunned for 1d4 rounds.
- Unstoppable Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has focused smite he may make an unstoppable smite, this smite ignores all cover. Same thing here, what's "Hard" cover?
- Unerring Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has Seeking smite he may make an Unerring smite, this smite ignores all concealment. Same thing here as with Seeking Smite. Seems early to ignore all concealment, which includes things like Blur, Invisibility, etc.
Level 5 - Nothing Suggested
Level 6 - Nothing Suggested
Level 7 - Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that deals damage with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod (deleted).
- Wracking Smite: At 7th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must make a save or be nauseated for 1 round, wracked by the agony of its own sin turning upon it.
- Breaching Smite: at 7th level a paladin may make a breaching smite. He ignores any DR or hardness when making his attacks. (May want to make this "may treat DR or Hardness of his target as reduced by his paladin class level for any attacks he makes this round" instead. I see a level 7 ability blowing through the hardness of adamantine to be a little silly, personally.)
- Impeding Smite: At 7th level, if the paladin already has Hampering Smite, he may make an impeding strike. If he damages the enemy, they get a fort save DC = 15 + 1/2 character level + cha mod. If the enemy fails he may only move at half speed and may not take 5 foot steps. Duration?
- Improved stunning smite: A 7th level paladin with the stunning smite ability may make an improved stunning smite. This ability functions just like Stunning Smite except that the save is 15+ 1/2 level + cha mod, and the duration lasts 1d4 rounds.
- Chain of Smiting: At 7th level the paladin may make a chain of smiting. The paladin may choose a first level smite effect and make an attack, if the smite hits the smite may continue beyond the first target to affect another evil creature within 10' of the paladin's choosing. Only smite damage (and the chosen smite effect) is carried over, and if the paladin chooses a non-evil creature the chain is wasted. Note: Also, I recommend upping the smite damage to 1d6 for every 2 paladin levels, minimum 1d6. This makes the Chain of Smiting ability worthwhile.
Level 8 - Nothing Suggested
Level 9 - Nothing Suggested
Level 10 - Debilitating Smite: At 10th level, if the paladin already has impeding smite he may make a debilitating smite. This ability functions just like Stunning Smite, except that the save is DC=20 + half character level+ cha mod, and if the enemy fails his speed is reduced to 5 feet and may not use full round actions (standard and move only). I'm not sure I understand the logic behind no full-round actions. If you are intent on preventing the individual moving more than 5 feet, put in some mumbo-jumbo about the "powers of Good binding his movement speed to 5 ft", so it can't be enhanced by things such as exped. retreat or the like.
Level 11 - Nothing Suggested
Level 12 - Nothing Suggested
Level 13 -Smite of Power: Divine Power on paladin if target is evil divine caster I need an explanation on this one to understand what is meant here
- Wave of Smiting: At 13th level if the paladin has chain of smiting as a full round action he may make a wave of smiting. He may choose up to a 4th level rider effect and sends out a wave of positive energy, dealing smite damage to all evil creatures within 10', plus any non-damage smite effect chosen. Need a defined list of "rider" effects, for simplicity's sake.
Level 14 - Nothing Suggested
Level 15 - Nothing Suggested
Level 16 - Truedeath Smite: Disruption (as Disrupting Weapon) if target is evil undead
- Smite of Final Judgment: At 16th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + CHA) or be disintegrated.
Level 17 - Nothing Suggested
Level 18 - Nothing Suggested
Level 19 - Nothing Suggested
Level 20 - Holy Champion: Banishment if target is evil outsider
:edit - I can't spell "wouldn't" apparently.
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We originally brainstormed (on the Alpha threads) quite a many Paladin smites, or 'Smite Powers', that you could pick just like Rage Powers -- maybe I should post them here? Some of them are similar in nature to some ideas already posted here. Or maybe we should start a new thread ('[THINK TANK] Paladin - New Smites and Auras'?) for this purpose?
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Hey McPoyo, the level 11 power should be a level ten power, I thought it was 11 because of misreading the danged chart again. Seriously when it comes to editing I really hope they bring back 3.5 alternating color charts so I can stop making dumb mistakes like that.
And you're right, it was meant to be able to choose lower level powers in place of higher level powers. The levels are meant to be minimum requirements, just like needing other powers to get the advanced version.
Hey McPoyo, the level 11 power should be a level ten power, I thought it was 11 because of misreading the danged chart again. Seriously when it comes to editing I really hope they bring back 3.5 alternating color charts so I can stop making dumb mistakes like that.
And you're right, it was meant to be able to choose lower level powers in place of higher level powers. The levels are meant to be minimum requirements, just like needing other powers to get the advanced version.
Fix'd.
Also, may as well cross post the alpha stuff, I'll throw it all into one big list if there's not already one and we can all go from there :P
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Hey McPoyo, the level 11 power should be a level ten power, I thought it was 11 because of misreading the danged chart again. Seriously when it comes to editing I really hope they bring back 3.5 alternating color charts so I can stop making dumb mistakes like that.
And you're right, it was meant to be able to choose lower level powers in place of higher level powers. The levels are meant to be minimum requirements, just like needing other powers to get the advanced version.
Fix'd.
Also, may as well cross post the alpha stuff, I'll throw it all into one big list if there's not already one and we can all go from there :P
one other thing, the original stunning smite at 4th level should be changed to a duration of 1 round.
I'd say that for any effect that isn't an improved version that the DC automatically be set to 10+ 1/2 level +cha mod, this seems to be the well established (not just for this class) base save.
Noooo! Sorry to yell, but you can't start the effects at level two, that makes a level 1 paladin suck the same as it has since 3.0 started and makes the Pally cry and god kill a kitten.
Bah, you're first level for like 1 game session usually. And more L1 powers promotes dipping. And in my experience, people don't get above level 15. I'd venture to say that the bulk of time of D&D players is spent in levels 5-10 so it's best to focus there on being interesting (that's another reason to extend smite specials past the L20 capstone - I've never gotten to level 20 in about 24 years of playing D&D).
Level 1 - Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil <- DC?
Oh, for all my DCs I assumed the same formula that is used in the current Banishment ability. Don't have my book with me at work so forget what that is. 10+pally level+CHA mod I assume.
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Bah, you're first level for like 1 game session usually. And more L1 powers promotes dipping. And in my experience, people don't get above level 15. I'd venture to say that the bulk of time of D&D players is spent in levels 5-10 so it's best to focus there on being interesting (that's another reason to extend smite specials past the L20 capstone - I've never gotten to level 20 in about 24 years of playing D&D).
Noooo! Sorry to yell, but you can't start the effects at level two, that makes a level 1 paladin suck the same as it has since 3.0 started and makes the Pally cry and god kill a kitten.
Having a single smite power at level 1 encourages dipping about as much as channel energy at first level does. 1 smite with a power a day that can only be chosen from the level one list, a list that should have effects relatively close to a level 1-2 spell I don't think will encourage dipping.
And just to argue the point. If we weren't playing a playtest where its important to try out multiple levels I would have asked that my game start at level one and ran on the slow xp chart. I love level 1-5 play usually (admitedly it sucks with the pally, the only class ever that I wish it was over quickly). If the Paladin was the equivalent of the other classes at level one I would even agree with you. But a level one paladin has the crappiest selection of features in the game. Not pathfinders fault, it's been that way since 3.0. So yes I encourage the pally get a single power at level one for his one per day smite. I also encourage he get something more because not even the wizard gets stuck with only 1 1/day ability at level one.
Like rage powers, when you reached a level where you got a new smite you would be able to choose an accompanying rider effect. The list will be longer than seven (hopefully at least double that 14 or more) that way no two paladins built would have to be the same mechanically, which in 3.0 the only variance on the paladin was what spells you selected and feats.Just what i wanted to know. In that case... I am Jacopo Veronese, and I approve this message. :-D
I'm with you too.
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Good, as a side note, I think that the ability to ignore soft cover (since soft isn't a defined term) should be changed to partial cover and hard cover be changed to total cover (there have been discussions about now that the multiclassing penalties have been removed having paladin/rangers able to smite at range, I agree with this and think the smite to ignore cover would be a blessing for such a class)
Oh, I love it.
Guy, plaase, when you come to a consent which those abilities are, and what do they grant could you please post it on a comprehensive way? I would love to add it to my campaign handbook, but looking at the many ideas and choosing them makes my eyes want to cry.
So please, when the OP, the other guy with a Lizardfolk and anyone else come with an agreement, please, post it. The I'll simply copy and paste it on my campaign handbook asap.
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3. There should be a caveat that you can only use one smite power at a time.4. In response to the upthread question about what level it would be good to get a multi-round stunning effect with smite, my thought is this: A one-round stun is a nice effect, a la Stunning Fist. Basically, it makes the target lose a turn, so they can't go until you go again. A multi-round stun moves it from "lose a turn" to "probable encounter ender." I saw this in game play with a monk character who had Stunning Fist, of course, and Pain Touch, which adds a round of nauseated AFTER the round of stun. Nauseated is not as bad as stun, but it's still no spells, no attacks, no SLAs, none of that good old fashioned cheatin' that we want our bad guys to do. It was a pretty hardcore effect.
I'm completely with you on these ones... I'm not a big fan on multi-round effects, because they're a bookkeeping nightmare both for players and DMs alike, and like you noted, they tend to be potential "encounter enders".
And, like yourself, I think one of the good things 4E introduced was the "Save Ends"-mechanic for ongoing effects, and considering that I doubt Jason will implement it into PF RPG, I think we should keep the duration of all the "rider effects" as one round (IMO it is the second best thing, in terms of bookkeeping).
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Here are the suggestions I posted on the Alpha threads. Note that they're all 'Faith Powers' that function with points just as the Rage Powers do. They can be divided into three "sub-groups": "Generic" combat abilities, Auras, and Smites. The paladin may have *one* active Aura "on" at all times.
Also note that some of the powers may overlap, and the exact wording on the same mechanical effects may vary -- I haven't done any "real" proofreading or editing yet. There may also be some odd durations, instead of "save ends" or "for one round" -- I will edit them out soon.
* * *
FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are free actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.
Shield Other (Su): For 1 round + 1 round per point of his Charisma modifier the paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell Shield Other. This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet. (5 points)
Divine Reflexes (Su): The paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal to 1/2 his Paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier against melee attacks. (10 points)
Divine Shield (Su): The paladin gains a sacred bonus to his armor class equal to half his paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. The paladin must be wearing a shield to use this power. This bonus stacks with any enhancement or armor bonus the shield already has. (10 points)
Divine Persistence (Su): The paladin may re-roll a failed saving throw. This power is used as an immediate action after the saving throw is failed. The paladin must take the second result, even if it is worse than the first result. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Divine Presence (Su): The paladin may add +4 Sacred Bonus to all his Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate checks for the duration of one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. In addition to this, for the duration of the effect, the paladin may use any Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skill check as a Swift Action. The paladin must be at least 4th leve before taking this power. (5 points)
Divine Resistance (Su): For the duration of one round , the paladin gains Resistance 10 against any chosen energy type ( electricity, fire, cold, acid or sonic) per 5 Divine Mana points spent (max. 15 points). The paladin cannot increase this beyond 30 resistance. A paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this ability. ( 5, 10, or 15 points)
Divine Might (Su): For the duration of one round the paladin may add his Charisma modifier to his hit and damage rolls. ( 5 Points )
Divine Glory (Su): As a standard action, the paladin can unleash a burst of radiant divine energy that dazes all evil beings within 30 feet radius who fail their Will saving throw versus DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma Modifier. This duration of this effect lasts for one round plus 1 round per the paladin's Charisma Modifier. Whether this saving throw was successful or not, each enemy caught within the burst is immune to this power for 24 hours. The paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this power and he must have taken Stunning Smite. (15 points)
Divine Vigor (Su): The paladin may invoke this power to gain 3 temporary hit points per Faith Point spent up to the maximum number of points equal to his level. All damage to the paladin is first These hit points last until duration of these temporary hit points is one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier. ( Up to the maximum of 1 point per paladin level)
Mirror of Penance (Su): The paladin chooses one adjacent evil and intelligent foe and as a free action can make an Intimidate check against him. If the Paladin successfully demoralizes his enemy, the foe is shaken for 1 round plus a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma Modifier due to seeing a reflection of its own evil soul in the paladin's eyes. (10 points)
Blessed Strike (Su): The paladin automatically confirms a critical hit on an evil enemy. This power is used as a swift action once a critical threat has been determined. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Sacrifice of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect an ally within 20 feet by taking half of all damage the chosen ally receives for 1 round. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.( 10 Points )
Sacred Mantle (Su): The paladin gains SR = 12 + Paladin Level for 1 round versus all spells or spell-like abilities from evil casters. This power may be activated as a swift action. The paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power. ( 15 points )
Hand of Glory (Su): This power allows the paladin to touch an ally to restore 1d4 ability damage as per Lesser Restoration. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. ( 10 points)
Divine Touch (Su): To choose this power the Paladin must first have taken the Hand of Glory power. This power allows the paladin to touch an ally with the effect which functions as the Restoration spell. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. ( 15 points )
Sacred Vow (Su): The paladin may swear a sacred vow to his deity that he is going to defeat a certain enemy in combat. The paladin receives +2 morale bonus to all his attacks, damage and saving throws against this enemy for the number of rounds equal to one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier Bonus (if any). If the paladin fails to defeat that foe during this time, he immediately receives -2 to all rolls for the next 24 hours (the paladin must must deal the final blow to that enemy). (5 points)
Baneful Strike (Su): All of the Paladin's attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of sacred damage against evil enemies for one round. This damage stacks with any sacred or holy damage dealt by special weapon abilities even if it is the same type. This power is used as a swift action before any attacks are made. The paladin must be 12th level before selecting this power.(15 points)
Smite Infidel (Su): The paladin may smite any being who is not a worshipper of his or her deity. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Healing Smite (Su): When the paladin smites, he heals hit point damage equal to half the damage of his smite attack, plus his Charisma Modifier. The paladin must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Martyr’s Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may sacrifice any number of hit points to gain extra damage dice for this attack. For every 5 hit points he sacrifices this way, he may roll an additional +1d6 sacred damage. The paladin must declare that he is using this ability before he attacks. The paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power. (15 points)
Stunning Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels divine energy through his weapon, stunning his enemy for one round unless the target succeeds in a Will saving throw versus DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma Modifier. Even if this saving throw is successful, the target is still dazed for one round. Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to this power.
Glorious Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may also Channel Positive Energy through his weapon, healing all allies and damaging all evil undead in a 30 feet radius. Using this power also uses up one of his Turn Undead attempts for the day (if he hasn’t any left, he cannot use this power). The paladin must be at least 16th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Vengeful Smite. (20 points)
Banishing Smite (Su): As he smites, the target of the paladin's attack is affected as per the Banishment spell, with the paladin’s class level as the caster level. The paladin must be at least 16th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Heavenly Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may ignore any DR or Spell Resistance the target of his attack may have. In addition to this, if this attack hits, it is automatically a critical hit. The paladin must be at least 18th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Aura of Blessing (Su): The paladin uses this power to bolster the saving throws and attacks of all allies within 10 feet radius. This effect is identical to the Bless spell, with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. (5 points per round)
Aura of Consecration (Su): All evil enemies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive -1 morale penalty to their attack rolls again the paladin's allies. (5 points per round)
Aura of Light (Su): The paladin sheds light as a Daylight spell within 10 feet radius, and all beings vulnerable to daylight are normally affected as per the spell. (5 points per round)
Aura of Protection (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on all saving throws to all his allies within 10 feet radius. (5 points per round)
Aura of Vitality (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant Fast Healing 1 to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power. (5 points per round)
Aura of Shielding (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on AC to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Vengeance (Su): Any melee attacks against the paladin that deal damage inflict 1d6 sacred damage to whoever attacked the paladin, if that being is within 10 feet radius of the paladin. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Truth (Su): All allies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive the benefits of True Seeing. The paladin must be at least 14th level before taking this power. (20 points per round)
Aura of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect all allies within 20 feet by taking half of all damage they receive. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 12th level and he must have taken Sacrifice of the Martyr. (10 points per round)
Anchoring Aura (Su): The paladin's aura prevents all sorts of dimensional movement and summoning spells from working. No spell that has the keywords Summoning or Calling in their description works within the range of the paladin's aura (his allies are affected by it, too). It also prevents anyone using spells such as Dimensional Door or Teleport to move into or out of the area of the paladin's aura. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power.
Aura of Stillness (Su): The paladin's aura prevents normal movement within its range. Every being starting their round within your aura have their movement halved for one round. In addition to this, if they fail a Will save vs. 10 + half your paladin level + your CHA modifier, they're also slowed for one round. The paladin must be at least 6th level before taking this power.
Aura of Healing (Su): At the beginning of the paladin's every round, all his allies within the range of the Aura heal 1 Hit Point plus 1 Hit Point per five paladin levels he has. The paladin must be at least 6th level before taking this power.
(Or, alternatively, another version...)
Aura of Healing (Su): At the beginning of the paladin's every round, all his allies within the range of the Aura gain Fast Healing equal to the paladin's CHA modifier. he paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this power.
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I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of adding points to the pally, he's got enough to track with all of his abilities and their different pools, and I don't want to combine all of his powers into one pot like some people suggest either. For me I like the simplicity of just having a list of riders, when you have all seven smites you'll have seven riders to choose from. No points, no tracking, just saying I'll do an overwhelming smite. easy peasy. Not that your ideas don't have merit, just not my thing.
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Those are some interesting ideas, Asgetrion. As such, I have two questions. What are the point costs for Stunning Smite, Anchoring Aura, Aura of Stillness and Aura of Healing? Moreover, how many power points does a paladin accrue per level?
I haven't really thought about it, since those are "new" ones. As to your second question, the same amount as the barbarian gets Rage Points, except based on CHA.
Originally my intention was to convert the paladin in my group to this system, but we haven't properly playtested the Beta paladin yet, so that's going to happen in the future. :)
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Those are some interesting ideas, Asgetrion. As such, I have two questions. What are the point costs for Stunning Smite, Anchoring Aura, Aura of Stillness and Aura of Healing? Moreover, how many power points does a paladin accrue per level?I haven't really thought about it, since those are "new" ones. As to your second question, the same amount as the barbarian gets Rage Points, except based on CHA.
Originally my intention was to convert the paladin in my group to this system, but we haven't properly playtested the Beta paladin yet, so that's going to happen in the future. :)
There's an alternate barb now too, so it might not be a unified system anymore.
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Astegrion, I like that these.
A change to more follow the example of the Alternate Rage version of Rage Powers would help streamline this some by getting rid of the "Faith Points" to track. Some tweaking here and there to make it more in line with that and I think we may have a winner.
Example:
SMITE:
Starting at 1st level, a paladin can use his Smite ability. A Smite attack allows a Paladin to add his Charisma Modifier to his atattack roll and damage. A paladin can use Smite for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, his smite can be used for 2 additional rounds.
FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. only one Smite power can be used in a round. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.
Shield Other (Su): While using his Smite ability, a paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell [i]Shield Other[i]. This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet.
Divine Reflexes (Su): While using his Smite ability. the paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal his Charisma modifier against melee attacks.
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I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of adding points to the pally, he's got enough to track with all of his abilities and their different pools, and I don't want to combine all of his powers into one pot like some people suggest either. For me I like the simplicity of just having a list of riders, when you have all seven smites you'll have seven riders to choose from. No points, no tracking, just saying I'll do an overwhelming smite. easy peasy. Not that your ideas don't have merit, just not my thing.
I have defended the idea behind point pools on several threads, and they're not new in PF or D&D -- after all, Hit Points are a point pool that you keep track of. Personally, I hate the slots in the Vancian spellcasting system, and it gets really annoying at high levels sometimes (I've yet to see a character sheet that enables you to easily keep track of your spells for multiclassed spellcasters). But each to his own.
Note that if you "tweak" my suggestions to work without points, they can be similar to Rogue Talents or work on the basis of "one power per round, with the duration of one round" -- of course, the mechanical effects of the auras would have to modified somewhat (they would be too good if you could use them "at will").
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Personally, I hate the slots in the Vancian spellcasting system, and it gets really annoying at high levels sometimes (I've yet to see a character sheet that enables you to easily keep track of your spells for multiclassed spellcasters). But each to his own.
We found that using spell cards (much like the old 2nd Edition product) helped with this, but I digress.
Hopefully, my above suggestion is to your liking. As noted by someone else (lastknightleft), there is an Alternate Rage system being tested by some, with positive results so far. It doesn't restrict personalization or make the choice into a "point tracking" mechanic, making it much easier to play.
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Astegrion, I like that these.
A change to more follow the example of the Alternate Rage version of Rage Powers would help streamline this some by getting rid of the "Faith Points" to track. Some tweaking here and there to make it more in line with that and I think we may have a winner.
Example:
SMITE:
Starting at 1st level, a paladin can use his Smite ability. A Smite attack allows a Paladin to add his Charisma Modifier to his atattack roll and damage. A paladin can use Smite for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, his smite can be used for 2 additional rounds.FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. only one Smite power can be used in a round. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.Shield Other (Su): While using his Smite ability, a paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell [i]Shield Other[i]. This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet.
Divine Reflexes (Su): While using his Smite ability. the paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal his Charisma modifier against melee attacks.
Hmmm... the number of rounds per day is quite interesting, but I'm not sure how balanced it would be.
BTW, I'm somewhat against powers/talents/smites giving your CHA modifier as a bonus, because that's more or less a "static" benefit, and encourages maxing out your CHA. A far more elegant and "dynamic" way, IMO, is to use the paladin level (e.g. 1 + 1 per 4 or 5 levels, or even 2) as the basis of the bonus.
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Originally I thought to use the Wisdom modifier instead, but feared outrage over the "multiple stat dependency" mindset.
As for the number of round, I used the same as the Alternate Rage version for a consistent mechanic, I am all for making mechanics consistant for ease of memorization. One of the things that bugged me with 3.5 was that some feats used the same prefix but offered diffent modifiers. For example, Improved Initiative was +4 to INIT, but Improved Trip granted a +4 to the attack and a free attack. Extra Rage raised it's relevant ability by two times, Extra Stunning by three times, and Extra Turning by four.