|
I believe there is no animal that uses dark vision, and the bonus from beast shape are enhancement bonus meaning they can't be combined with most buffs. On top of this armor bonus cease to function including bracers of armor. What does that mean? It means your AC would be worst then a wizard/sorcerer. Yeah you can ask for Mage Armor buff, but that means taking resources from another player and looks pretty strange asking for armor buff from wearing armor. Not mention larger sizes provide a dex and size penalty to hit.
Natural weapons are inherently weaker then manufactured weapons. You can't have admantine, sliver or cold iron natural weapons so there goes a large portion of damage reductions. Not mention you need high strength to bypass damage reduction which beasthape doesn't give you. Yes you can wildshape to a form that only gives one attack for 1.5 strength but so can a someone else who has manufactured weapon but can make more then one attack. Not to mention that it cost significantly more to get bonus from Amulet of Mighty Fist, and how many Amulets of Mighty Fist are going to be part of treasure pool for society games?
At the moment there is no point in switching from smallest bird you can 5th level and beyond aside for tracking scent or water adventure. And how many times do you track or go under water?
Perhaps +1 Str, Dex and Con/ druid level that stacks wildshape and armor bonus doesn't cease to function for the cost of Animal Companion. Kinda like Phasics' idea...
It seems that the best way to leverage Wild Shape right now is to find a form that has a great deal of utility for a given combat situation and then focus on casting spells from a distance. This requires you to have the Natural Spell feat, but it's probably your best bet to maximize the effectiveness of this class ability.
If you want to be a melee Druid in Pathfinder, you'll need to wear magical armor with the "Wild" ability and have a wand of Magic Fang, Greater at the ready at all times. Having other stat-boosting items on hand always helps, of course. You won't have as much raw offensive and defensive power as a properly-designed Abyssal Sorcerer, but you will usually have more hit points and won't require nearly as much setup time to get going.
|
We ran an 8th level one-shot playtest, and the druid wild shaped into a dire bat to great effect. The natural armor replaced the armor (and was 1-2 points higher), and being a flying combattant with blindsense was very effective for the encounters they had against invisible stalkers ... the druid's damage was low, admittedly, but she tried to grapple a few times ...
|
|
We ran an 8th level one-shot playtest, and the druid wild shaped into a dire bat to great effect. The natural armor replaced the armor (and was 1-2 points higher), and being a flying combattant with blindsense was very effective for the encounters they had against invisible stalkers ... the druid's damage was low, admittedly, but she tried to grapple a few times ...
Are you sure you guys were running correctly?
Since he picked a large animal he would be getting Enhancement bonus of +4 Strength -2 Dex +4 Natural Armor bonus and Large Size Penalties.
-2 Dex and -1 size penalty means for total of +2 AC vs 3 Regular Hide Armor or 4 DragonHide Chain Shirt that can be enhanced with armor bonus.
The blindsense was the only saving grace for the druid but it was only single grace in the scenario. However you can say Wizard is weak by tossing a High SR low AC monster.
The changes make sense as a way to standardize the benefit...
The attribute bonuses should be "Inherent" bonuses, though...
|
|
Oh I forgot to mention damage reduction from creatures would just make druid's attack that much worst. With much lower strength and no access no to sliver admantine or cord iron for natural attacks. If you say switch to a form that provides 1 natural attack for the 1.5 Strength other melee can do that and attack more often due to manufacture weapons being able to attack multiple times due to BAB.
Although I rather not be inherit instead let it be a unstated...
I'm not sure how this figures in for backwards compatibility, but I do remember "back in my day," that 1st and 2nd edition druids did only use wildshape for utility and scouting. It wasn't really part of the concept that druids "tanked," but that they mainly threw around weather spells and elemental spells and the like.
IF the stat boosts are made inherent, as is pretty reasonable to do,
then FEATS can provide things like Natural Weapon->Magic/Adamantine, Multi-attack, etc... This also makes it so Druids who want to specialize in Wildshape Combat give up more in comparison to those who take another path. A reasonable scenario, IMHO.
Yes Wild Shape is now primarily a utility/ scouting role, as someone mentioned, this was the main point of the feature originally. 3e introduced the crazy shape shifter of death version.
As far as I'm concerned it's a matter of saving the class which is ridiculously overpowered right now. Even with Wild Shape nerfed it's still arguably the most powerful class in the game because of the animal companion plus full casting. There is no other character in the game that can do a full attack *and* cast spells in the same round without resorting to quickened spells.
The primary role of the druid is to be a spellcaster and as such the druid should not be one of the most deadly melee characters in the game also.
Incidentally the druids AC is now going to be far better than it was previously because persistent magic items continue to function while the druid is in Wild Shape. So Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Bracers of Defense all work for the druid in Wild Shape.
Yes Wild Shape is now primarily a utility/ scouting role, as someone mentioned, this was the main point of the feature originally. 3e introduced the crazy shape shifter of death version.
You can be a crazy shape shifter in the Pathfinder RPG - but you're going to have fewer spells per day, your spells DCs will be lower, and you probably won't have access to the most powerful spells avaliable to the class. If you want to be a shape-shifting melee Druid, you're going to have to put your best stats in STR, DEX, and CON. A trade-off exists for most players - do they want to have that 18 WIS and hurl spells like crazy, or are they willing to settle for a 13 WIS and mix it up with the other melee classes?
As far as I'm concerned it's a matter of saving the class which is ridiculously overpowered right now. Even with Wild Shape nerfed it's still arguably the most powerful class in the game because of the animal companion plus full casting.
The animal companion seems to be the sticking point regarding the Druid for a lot of people. I'm not sure if it should be purged or not as of yet. But I think most people would agree that the Ranger would benefit from full Animal Companion progression (or close to it).
The primary role of the druid is to be a spellcaster and as such the druid should not be one of the most deadly melee characters in the game also.
I agree with you on this - it should be an either/or kind of situation.
Incidentally the druids AC is now going to be far better than it was previously because persistent magic items continue to function while the druid is in Wild Shape. So Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Bracers of Defense all work for the druid in Wild Shape.
The Ring Of Protection is a nice addition, but the Amulet of Natural Armor is only useful if it outstrips the natural armor bonuses that you get from your Shape spell. And you'll still probably end up with greater overall bonuses from Wild Armor then Bracers of Armor (which are probably going to go to your party's Mage/Sorcerer anyway).
|
|
Incidentally the druids AC is now going to be far better than it was previously because persistent magic items continue to function while the druid is in Wild Shape. So Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Bracers of Defense all work for the druid in Wild Shape.
Only bonus to AC Druids now get is Ring of Protection.
Amulet of Natural Armor provides enhancement which doesn't stack with enhancement from beastshape.
If by bracers of defense you meant bracers of armor then it cease to function. Polymorph paragraph states that armor bonus cease to function and there is nothing in the description that bracers of armor say other wise for wildshape.
Only bonus to AC Druids now get is Ring of Protection.
Ummm... yes, I believe you are right. I'm not sure if that changed since the Alphas or if I just misread it. Which means the druids AC will be mediocre in wild shape until the druid can afford Wild Shape Armor.
Yes Wild Shape is now primarily a utility/ scouting role, as someone mentioned, this was the main point of the feature originally. 3e introduced the crazy shape shifter of death version.You can be a crazy shape shifter in the Pathfinder RPG - but you're going to have fewer spells per day, your spells DCs will be lower, and you probably won't have access to the most powerful spells avaliable to the class. If you want to be a shape-shifting melee Druid, you're going to have to put your best stats in STR, DEX, and CON. A trade-off exists for most players - do they want to have that 18 WIS and hurl spells like crazy, or are they willing to settle for a 13 WIS and mix it up with the other melee classes?
This is how I see it also, wildshape is a great class feature for a full on caster or they can invest in melee stats and be a martial character with somewhat lesser but still impressive spellcasting.
Lets clairify the armor bonus situation here:
Amulet of natural armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor, while beastshape provides just a natural armor bonus. These stack just as an armor bonus and an enhancement to armor stacks.
Beastshape would however not stack with a racially granted natural armor bonus (if you had for instance a minotaur druid)
Bracers of armor cease to function. I think they should however
Dex bonus still applies. I think the bonus from wildshaping should be inherent or untyped.
Wild armor is not part of OGL but a similar item could be published subseuqntly by pathfinder. Indeed I think this would be excellent for melee druids.
Ring of Protection would apply.
I'm fine with the druids in a scouting role, after putting up with a two weapon-fighting druid in legendary ape form (yes weapon not natural attacks) for most of my last campaign I'm all for a serious nerfing back to 2nd edition levels.
In terms of natural attacks and damage reduction. I think a feat allowing the material composition of the druid's weapon (or weapons) held to bleed through in wild shape would be in order. Same feat could be used by wizards or others who employ a polymorph spell.
I did a side-by-side comparison, and the new wild shape didn't seem that much worse than the other one; the only big difference was that a 6 Str halfling can't wild shape into a 25 Str dire wolf any longer. But if a character had decent physical stats (like 14 Str & Dex), then it was reasonably competitive.
I am glad for the druid changes to wildshape. They already have solid full casting- they really don't need to be a full fledged front line fighter in addition to that, at absolutely no cost. (except one feat, if you choose to front line And cast).
Wildshape gives them excellent utility with some other moderate benefits. I only wish WotC had gone down this general trail originally rather than giving Paizo the problem to fix in the first place.
-S
I have not play tested
I rather agree with the nerfing, but it might have been a bit too much. May I suggest to Jason that we make the bonus from the ability untyped when compared to the spell. This will allow for buff spells, but keep things from getting too broken.
Wild armor is not part of OGL but a similar item could be published subseuqntly by pathfinder. Indeed I think this would be excellent for melee druids.
Wild Armor is part of the SRD, and already in the Beta (p.343).
The Wild power also can be applied to shields - I never noticed that before. I guess it becomes a shield that can somehow be used by the form, but that's still kind of odd. I guess shield bonuses aren't that big compared to armor.
I do think you're right about the beast shape natural armor bonus, and that it replaces normal natural armor and stacks with barkskin or amulets of natural armor.
The ability bonuses could be size bonuses, so that they'll stack with enhancement items but won't stack with enlargement spells.
|
|
Lets clairify the armor bonus situation here:
Amulet of natural armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor, while beastshape provides just a natural armor bonus. These stack just as an armor bonus and an enhancement to armor stacks.
Beastshape would however not stack with a racially granted natural armor bonus (if you had for instance a minotaur druid)
Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.
The ability bonuses could be size bonuses, so that they'll stack with enhancement items but won't stack with enlargement spells.
That doesn't make a lot of sense in all situations. For example Small Earth Elemental grants a bonus to strength even if you are a medium character. Many medium forms give strength bonuses even when your size doesn't change.
That doesn't make a lot of sense in all situations. For example Small Earth Elemental grants a bonus to strength even if you are a medium character. Many medium forms give strength bonuses even when your size doesn't change.
Oops, I didn't notice that, I've just been looking at the beast shape spells.
It would be cleaner for all the polymorph spells to use the same bonus type, I think, so that does rule out size.
Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.
Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
It could be an unnamed bonus which would fit better.
Well the problem I see with an unnamed bonus is that you could then wildshape into a form then have someone cast beastshape, then cast bulls strength... triple dipping. It would make more sense to have a new type of bonus called "polymorph".
I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Bulls Strength should stack with Polymorph/ Wild Shape though... I'm not really against it but not sold on it either.
Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
This has always confused me personally.
"You gain natural armor +2"
"You gain a natural armor bonus of +2"
A wolf would not benefit from the first because it already has a Natural Armor of +2. The latter means the wolf gains a +2 bonus to it's armor.
Or that's how I've always thought of it. So an animal with natural armor can benefit from Barkskin. The same animal with Beastshape cast on it would get the creatures new natural armor bonus instead of it's own.
Again... I'm confused about the whole natural armor thing myself so don't take my word as low.
|
|
Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
It's an unnamed bonus to natural armor, specifically. As opposed to an enhancement bonus, for instance, as barkskin is.
Wild Armor is part of the SRD, and already in the Beta (p.343).
Heh, would you look at that.
I'm thinking of beastskin armor from complete adventurer p 127.
Wild armor as written in the beta would preserve the AC of the armor for a druid bearer, the +3 bonus price seems perhaps a tad high though.
Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
From: d20srd.org Basics
Natural Armor Bonus
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
I'm not certain if these rules are in the pathfinder rules but they aught to be.
As it occurs to me if you wildshape into a creature you would lose any natural armor bonus you have (again say you're a minotaur druid) as it would not stack with the new natural armor bonus but you would carry over an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
If the intention is to have it stack with all other bonuses just give the bonus some unique name type (like a polymorph bonus) so as to stack with everything.
|
|
Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
A +2 Str bonus would be unnamed bonus
A +2 Size Str bonus would Strength BonusA +2 Enhancement Str Bonus is an Enhancement bonus.
an Unnamed Natural Armor Bonus does not stack with other Natural Armor bonus including existing Natural armor bonus, only the higher takes effect. The two exception if it's enhancement bonus or spell description states it increases existing natural armor bonus but doesn't say it was enhancement.
It could state it gives racial or say your existing Natural Armor Bonus becomes a 4 unless your previous natural armor bonus was higher.
It's an unnamed bonus to natural armor, specifically. As opposed to an enhancement bonus, for instance, as barkskin is.Other spells whom give multiple bonus make distinctions if the bonus are different such as Rightious Might's Size and Enhancement bonus.Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?
I disagree. I think it's just saying you have a natural armor bonus of X while you're wild shaped (as opposed to whatever natural armor bonus you usually have). I don't know how else you could phrase it.
It could state it gives racial or say your existing Natural Armor Bonus becomes a 4 unless your previous natural armor bonus was higher.
I guess they could have phrased it that way. I just didn't think it was confusing.
Wild armor as written in the beta would preserve the AC of the armor for a druid bearer, the +3 bonus price seems perhaps a tad high though.
The +3 bonus is quite high at low levels but dirt cheap as soon as you can afford it.
+1 Dragon Hide Plate Armor with the 'Wild Armor' property boosts the druids Armor Class by +9 while wild shaped. Dirt cheap at twice the price.
|
|
Huh? "Natural armor bonus" is a specific type of bonus, last time I checked. Or are you saying they should call it a non-enhancement natural armor bonus?From: d20srd.org Basics
Natural Armor Bonus
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.I'm not certain if these rules are in the pathfinder rules but they aught to be.
As it occurs to me if you wildshape into a creature you would lose any natural armor bonus you have (again say you're a minotaur druid) as it would not stack with the new natural armor bonus but you would carry over an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
If the intention is to have it stack with all other bonuses just give the bonus some unique name type (like a polymorph bonus) so as to stack with everything.
Exactly It's same with Armor/Shield Bonus they don't stack with the same bonus except it's an enhancement bonus. Enhancement Bonus don't stack with other Enhancement bonus. If you want open another can of worms let's look Bracers of Armor.
This is why Amulet of Natural Armor says it gives an enhancement bonus.