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This is the fourth of four playtest reports featuring: Gruff Axehurl, half-orc barbarian; Hardcastle Stagfield, dwarf ranger; Travis Nino, human fighter. These characters will be built for playtests at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.
Primary Objective: Make characters in the same way I would have made a D&D 3.5 character, only limited to the Pathfinder RPG Beta rulebook, the Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger classes, and without multiclassing.
Secondary Objective: Compensate for the “roles” missing in the party to show the diversity of the rules.
Tertiary Objective: Fun!
Level 15
Character Advancement
Gruff continued to take feats that helped in combat, Toughness, Improved Critical, and Stunning Defence. His Orc double axe was given the Speed magical property, meaning he would dish out five attacks on a full attack. Hardcastle was in an interesting situation. Two of the combat style feats in the archery tree are not in the Beta rules, and he took all the other combat style feats at lower levels, except Shot on the Run. Basically, by 15th level, he had taken all the ranged combat style feats. Additionally, he took agile manoeuvres, weapon focus and, because it seems to apply to ranged attacks, vital strike. Finally, Travis took Improved Initiative to increase his odds of using his wand of fireballs in the first round, and Defensive Combat Training to make sure he did not get caught in another endless grapple. He took Devastating Blow for any round he moved and therefore could not make a full attack, and Greater Weapon Specialization because that’s what fighters do.
The Playtest
The party destroyed two nagas and a digester in an encounter so easy it isn’t worth noting. Then they were attacked by a Marut. This encounter perfectly demonstrated warrior classes past the sweet spot. TPK.
Encounter thoughts:
-The fighter had the highest AC in the party: 24. The raging barbarian had the lowest AC in the party: 16. The Marut needed a 2+ to hit either.
-The fighter used a bastard sword two handed, dealing 1d10+18 damage, or an average of 23. The barbarian used an orc double axe, dealing 1d8+10 while raging, an average of 14. The ranger used a composite bow, dealing 1d8+4, an average of 8. The Marut had DR 15/chaotic, meaning the fighter dealt an average of 8 damage per hit, the barbarian and ranger on average did not deal enough damage to overcome its damage reduction.
-The fighter had a 26/21/16 full attack, an average of 36/31/26. The barbarian while raging had a 23/23/23/15/10 full attack, an average of 33/33/33/25/20. The ranger had a 22/17/12 full attack, an average of 32/27/22. The Marut’s AC was 34. On average, only the fighter could hit the Marut, and even then only once a round.
-The Marut had Fast Healing 10 and 112 hp, meaning that of the average 8 damage it took a round, it healed all of it.
-As a construct, the Marut was immune to critical hits.
-The Marut had spell resistance 25, easily negating the 9th level fireball the fighter and his maxed Use Magic Device wand cast in the opening round.
Overall
For warriors, there is still just one viable build: two handed weapon specialist. Two weapon fighting and ranged combat may be fun at earlier levels, but by the time monsters all have DR and natural armour, more attacks means nothing because the penalty to hit makes overcoming AC to difficult, and more hits means very little against Damage Reduction.
If damage reduction reduced the amount of damage take from a single attacker and not from every attack, the warrior sweet spot would extend beyond 10th level.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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What magic gear do your playtest PC's have, weapons and such? Their to hit and damage numbers seem awfully low for 15th level characters. Maybe posting their builds would help us visualize the encounter better?
Did you try flanking the Marut, a simple way to give another +2 to hit. Tripping it might have been another good tactic reducing it's AC and attacks by 4 and possibly drawing AoO's when it tried to stand again. Definitely a tough encounter, but then again Outsiders tend to be...
Yeah, I have to say those are some pretty weak 15th level characters. A maximum AC of 24? Don't they have any animated shields (or a wand of shield for the wand-using guy) + amulet of natural armor + ring of deflection + dusty rose ioun stone?
How expensive is an oil of align weapon? By this level every fighter-type should be carrying some.
Did any of the playtesters attempt a Combat Maneuver of any kind? Did any of them set up flanking bonuses or aid another?
Why did a fighter waste money on a wand of fireball? At this level everything makes its save. If you're going to waste money on wands a wand of grease would've been more effective since even if it makes its save its still Balancing and losing any Dex bonus to AC (only 1 point for the marut but every point helps). Why not a wand of haste or a wand of bless?
Just asking.
Also, the Beta playtest reintroduces a mechanic where magic weapons with enough plusses can overcome certain types of difficult DR. That would seem to make an oil of greater magic weapon a no brainer.
Also, the Beta playtest reintroduces a mechanic where magic weapons with enough plusses can overcome certain types of difficult DR. That would seem to make an oil of greater magic weapon a no brainer.
Greater Magic Weapon specifically doesn't work vs. DR.
Align Weapon is a no-brainer, though.
I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.
Add one more thing to make the fighter a little sub par.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.
Add one more thing to make the fighter a little sub par.
No I think it's a great idea. If you want a weapon to overcome DR get that weapon. Personally I dislike the new DR. 3.5 DR was great except for DR magic. IMC DR will work as 3.5 except DR magic will be spread open again to +1 to +5, etc depending on HD or CR of the creature (still working on it). 5, 10, or 15 points of damage isn't a huge deal to the warrior classes at the correct EL so the golfbag of weapons analogy just doesn't apply.
--Vrock the Vote!
I think it's pretty clear that the reason the party had trouble is that they were relatively underpowered for their level. Without really trying, I can get a 15th level fighter with AC 35, HP 165, and attacks of +30/+25/+20 doing 1d10+17 and crit of 17-20/x2. I can post some more details tomorrow if you're interested, but it doesn't even take half of a 15th level character's allotted wealth (unless that's changed in Pathfinder, I couldn't find it).
Would you be interested in re-running the playtest with different characters?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Compared to the DR values of 3.0? I'd much rather see 15 at most than 30 or even 40 points per hit. In 3.0 if you didn't have the right weapon you shouldn't even be in the same room with that creature! 3.5 made it much more reasonable to attack a creature even if you don't have the correct weapon. Not having the proper weapon for DR shouldn't mean an impossible encounter, only a more difficult one.
I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.
Add one more thing to make the fighter a little sub par.
No I think it's a great idea. If you want a weapon to overcome DR get that weapon. Personally I dislike the new DR. 3.5 DR was great except for DR magic. IMC DR will work as 3.5 except DR magic will be spread open again to +1 to +5, etc depending on HD or CR of the creature (still working on it). 5, 10, or 15 points of damage isn't a huge deal to the warrior classes at the correct EL so the golfbag of weapons analogy just doesn't apply.
--Vrock the Vote!
But we are talking Pathfinder here and not 3.5. Does it really make sense that the spell you need to cast to enchant a weapon so it will overcome certain DRs can't be used to temporarily enchant a weapon the same way?
That to me is unnecessarily muddying the waters.
And for the record: I prefer the 3.5 DR system. In fact, I want Pathfinder to be more like 3.5 than less so. They're starting to get a little too far away from it.
Here's a 15th level fighter that I think is more representative of what can be done with Pathfinder. I tried to keep him true to the spirit of what the OP was trying to do (compensating for missing roles), but made sure that he played an effective primary role as well (in this case, meat shield). You'll note that I didn't agonize over any decisions or try to squeeze every last bonus out of him. Heck, I didn't even spend more than about 50% of the starting gold for a 15th level character, so there's plenty of room for customization.
The reason I'm posting this is that I think the conclusions drawn in your play-test are somewhat erroneous. In fact, after looking at the character below, I think a more typical 15th level party of barbarian, fighter, and ranger would have absolutely no problem overcoming a Marut.
Even 3 identical 15th level fighters, as shown below, without the use of the wand of align weapon, would have a trivially easy time with the Marut. Consider that with Vital Strike they are doing an average of 28 damage per hit, adjusted by DR for 13 damage per hit. Against the Marut's AC of 34 that works out to .85 + .6 = 1.45 hits per fighter per round. With three fighters, that would be 4.35 hits per round, for an average damage against the Marut of about 56 per round, adjusted by Fast Healing for 46 per round. The Marut in question would go down in 2.5 rounds. That's a far cry from the results you listed above, and it uses the "sub-optimal" sword-and-board build with a focus on Use Magic Device for fighters. Anyway, I just thought it was important to see both sides of this.
To the OP, please don't think I'm criticizing your play style. I realize you said "Make characters in the same way I would have made a D&D 3.5 character", and there are many, many ways of playing D&D, a large number of which don't focus on combat first. In my experience, a DM usually compensates for parties who don't focus on combat so that an appropriate level of challenge is presented in the game. I think when looking at generic examples in the absence of DM guidance, it's probably more useful to look at more combat-focused characters for a play-test, so that's what I've tried to give below.
Human Fighter 15
HD: 15d10+60+18 (HP: 165 average)
AC: 35 (+11 Armor, +5 Shield, +4 Armor Mastery, +3 Dex, +2 Deflection)
Conditional AC bonuses: +2 dodge from Dodge; +4 dodge from Mobility vs. AoO; +3 dodge from Fight Defensive; +6 dodge from Total Defense
Initiative: +3
Abilities bought with 15-point buy
STR: 24 = 15 base + 2 Race + 3 level + 4 enhancement (with Bull's Strength)
INT: 12 = 12 base
WIS: 10 = 10 base
DEX: 17 = 13 base + 4 enhancement
CON: 18 = 14 base + 4 enhancement
CHA: 8 = 8 base
Fort: +15 = + 9 base + 2 con + 4 magic
Ref: +12 = + 5 base + 3 dex + 4 magic
Will: +11 = + 5 base + 2 feat + 4 magic
BAB: +15/+10/+5
CMB: +22 (+2 for Bull Rush, +4 to resist opponent's maneuvers, so for example +28 to resist Bull Rush, +26 to resist grapple)
Attack:
Bastard Sword: +30/+25/+20, 1d10+17, 17-20/x2
Bastard Sword (with Vital Strike): +30/+25, 1d10+17+1d10, 17-20/x2
Throwing Axe: +21/+16/+11, 1d6+10, 20/x3
Flail: +24/+19/+14, 1d8+9, 20/x2
Flail (with Vital Strike): +24/+19, 1d8+9+1d8, 20/x2
Special:
Bonus Feats (x8)
Bravery (+4 bonus vs. Fear)
Armor Training (+4 AC, -4 Armor Check, +4 Max Dex bonus)
Weapon Training (to hit and damage, +3 Heavy Blades, +2 Axes, +1 Flails)
Skills (75 ranks = +1 race, +1 int, +1 favored class, +2 class = 5/level):
Intimidate +17 (15 ranks, -1 Cha, +3 favored class)
Swim +24 (15 ranks, +7 Str, +3 favored class, -1 Armor check)
UMD +20 (15 ranks -1 Cha, +6 Skill Focus)
Acrobatics +17 (15 ranks, +3 dex, -1 Armor check)
Knowledge [Dungeoneering] +19 (15 ranks, +1 Int, +3 favored class)
Feats (8 base, +1 race, +8 class bonus = 17): Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (B Sword), G Weapon Focus (B Sword), Weapon Spec (B Sword), G Weapon Spec (B Sword), Imp. Critical (B Sword), Toughness, Blind-Fight, Defensive Combat Training, Power Attack, Cleave, Vital Strike, Improved Bull Rush, Dodge, Mobility, Iron Will, Skill Focus (UMD)
Equipment: +3 Adamantine Bastard Sword, +3 Full Plate, +3 Heavy Shield, Belt of Physical Might (Dex and Con, +4), Cloak of Resistance +4, +1 throwing axe of returning, +1 flail, dagger, Ring of Protection +2, Wand of Align Weapon (50 chg), Wand of Bull's Strength (50 chg), Wand of Cure Serious Wds (50 chg)
Total equipment value = 21 + 11 + 9 + 40 + 16 + 8 + 2 + 8 = 114k + wands
I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.
Actually I can understand why they did it. With their new system for defeating DR (and I'm not saying I agree with that system) that spell could allow anyone to hit anything.
I can understand why they would want to limit that.
So, because I haven't spent time statting an NPC in quite a while, and I actually enjoy the mental exercise :), I decided to see what I could do with the two-weapon fighting barbarian. With D&D 3.5, my attempts at creating an effective two-weapon fighting barbarian were pretty frustrating. I was actually surprised, however, at just how effectively it could be done with a few new options from Pathfinder. Double Slice and Vital Strike make a huge difference in how well a dual-wielder performs. Combined with Elemental Rage, I can actually see a two-weapon fighting barbarian as a viable option. Don't get me wrong, there are still some tricky issues with dual wielding, such as the multiple ability dependency of strength and dexterity, and the dual weapon costs, but Pathfinder makes the situation considerably better.
On average, the barbarian shown below does reasonably well against the Marut of the original playtest. Against the Marut, using two-weapon fighting with Vital strike gives an average of 21 damage per hit, adjusted by DR to 6 damage per hit. For the Marut's AC of 34, the barbarian hits (.65 + .4 + .65 + .4) = 2.1 times per round, for an average of 12.6 damage per round. I don't know the Marut's resistances off-hand, but if we can use acid, cold, or fire, the barbarian can add elemental rage to give an additional 3.5 damage per hit, for an average of 19.9 or about 20 damage per round. Even if elemental damage won't work, the barbarian can use powerful blow once a round to add (.65 x 7) = 4.5 damage, to bring the total to 17 damage per round.
3 of these barbarians will do either 60 damage (if elemental rage works) or 51 damage (if elemental rage does not) per round, adjusted by Fast Healing to 50 or 41 damage per round, which means the Marut goes down, again, in less than 3 rounds.
This is using what has traditionally been one of the most challenging builds of the game. Strength is the forte of the barbarian, but two-weapon fighting minimizes the effects of strength. In addition, it's against an opponent specifically designed to penalize the two-weapon fighting strategy of multiple weak attacks. And again, I spent well under the allotted wealth for a 15th level PC. All in all, I was surprised by the effectiveness of the two-weapon fighting barbarian.
Half-Orc Barbarian 15
HD: 15d12+45+18 (HP: 166 average, 211 when raging)
AC: 25 , 23 when raging (+3 dex, +10 armor, +2 natural)
Initiative: +3
Abilities bought with 15-point buy
STR: 22 (28) = 14 base + 2 race + 2 levels + 4 enhancement (+ 6 rage)
INT: 8 = 10 base - 2 race
WIS: 12 = 10 base + 2 race
DEX: 17 = 16 base + 1 levels
CON: 16 (22)= 12 base + 4 enhancement (+ 6 rage)
CHA: 8 = 8 base
Fort: +14 = + 9 base + 1 con + 4 magic
Ref: +12 = + 5 base + 3 dex + 4 magic
Will: +10 (+13) = + 5 base + 1 wis + 4 magic (+ 3 rage)
Combat stats assume rage is in effect
BAB: +15/+10/+5
CMB: +24
Attack (Boots of Speed adds 1 attack at highest BAB):
Orc Double Axe (Raging, Two-Weapon Fighting): +26/+21/+16 and +26/+21, 1d8+12, 19-20/x3
Orc Double Axe (Raging, Two-handed): +28/+23/+18, 1d8+16, 19-20/x3
Orc Double Axe (Raging, Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike): +26/+21 and +26/+21, 1d8+12+1d8, 19-20/x3
Orc Double Axe (Raging, Two-handed, Vital Strike): +28/+23, 1d8+16+1d8, 19-20/x3
Special:
Darkvision 60'
Weapon Familiarity (orc)
Orc Ferocity
Fast Movement (+10')
Rage (47 rage points)
Greater Rage (+6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will)
Rage Power (x7: Strength Surge, Surprise Accuracy, Powerful Blow, Elemental Rage, Guarded Stance, Mighty Swing, Swift Foot)
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +5
Damage Reduction 3/-
Indomitable Will (+4 saves vs. Enchantment)
Skills (60 ranks = -1 int, +1 favored class, +4 class = 5/level):
Acrobatics +19 (15 ranks + 3 dex + 3 favored class - 2 armor check)
Climb +22 (15 ranks + 6 str + 3 favored class - 2 armor check)
Survival +19 (15 ranks + 1 wis + 3 favored class)
Swim +22 (15 ranks + 6 str + 3 favored class - 2 armor check)
Feats (8 base = 8): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (Orc Double Axe), Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe), Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, Toughness, Vital Strike
Equipment: Belt of Physical Might (Str and Con, +4), Orc Double Axe +3/+3, +5 Breastplate, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance +4
Total equipment value = 40 + 36 + 25 + 8 + 12 + 16 = 138k
Here's a 15th level fighter that I think is more representative of what can be done with Pathfinder. I tried to keep him true to the spirit of what the OP was trying to do (compensating for missing roles), but made sure that he played an effective primary role as well (in this case, meat shield). You'll note that I didn't agonize over any decisions or try to squeeze every last bonus out of him. Heck, I didn't even spend more than about 50% of the starting gold for a 15th level character, so there's plenty of room for customization.
The reason I'm posting this is that I think the conclusions drawn in your play-test are somewhat erroneous. In fact, after looking at the character below, I think a more typical 15th level party of barbarian, fighter, and ranger would have absolutely no problem overcoming a Marut.
Even 3 identical 15th level fighters, as shown below, without the use of the wand of align weapon, would have a trivially easy time with the Marut. Consider that with Vital Strike they are doing an average of 28 damage per hit, adjusted by DR for 13 damage per hit. Against the Marut's AC of 34 that works out to .85 + .6 = 1.45 hits per fighter per round. With three fighters, that would be 4.35 hits per round, for an average damage against the Marut of about 56 per round, adjusted by Fast Healing for 46 per round. The Marut in question would go down in 2.5 rounds. That's a far cry from the results you listed above, and it uses the "sub-optimal" sword-and-board build with a focus on Use Magic Device for fighters. Anyway, I just thought it was important to see both sides of this.
...
Now, the issue isn't just the Marut's physical capabilities. If we were just looking at the Marut as a very butch melee combatant (which it is), in a sandbox, then I might reasonably say you are right. But with At Will Dimension Door and Greater Command, and available Wall of Force, Circle of Death, and Plane Shift plus on hit blindness, I think your Fighter would have the Marut get the drop on him in a surprise round, be commanded (How is the fighter's will save?), then blinded, and if seriously at risk, could easily get away. Why wasn't the Marut using it's lightning fist to Damage, Blind, and to Awesome Blow the Fighter back, to get freebie AOOs, assuming it's tactics are fixed as indicated in the SRD?
Which is why the numbers can't tell everything... in D&D math is not perfect, forumlas don't fit, and probability can be beaten. You actually have to play out the encounter and let the dice fall where they may!!!
Absolutely! My only point was that the PCs in the above playtest were unnecessarily weak, and it might be worthwhile to play out the encounter using more combat-oriented PCs. If the only thing that mattered were formulas and statistics, Paizo wouldn't be having this playtest at all :)
I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.
Swami, you were in the Alpha discussion that led to this decision early on, but left before it reached that point. For whatever reason (probably to do with the out-of-whack gp costs), Jason (probably with input from Monte) was very keen on allowing +N weapons to bypass DR, despite your opposition. It was pointed out then that with a simple 3rd level spell from a competent sorcerer, everyone would bypass all DR all day, and +N weapons would become obsolete again. The magical theory, I guess, is that GMW provides a temporary enhancement bonus and hence no other benefits, much like you don't get any bonus skills for a headband of intelligence now unless you wear the thing for more than a day. So those mechanics are more or less standardized in the Pathfinder game now: temporary enhancement bonus = plus, but no extra benefits; permanent enhancement bonus = full benefits.
Compared to the DR values of 3.0? I'd much rather see 15 at most than 30 or even 40 points per hit. In 3.0 if you didn't have the right weapon you shouldn't even be in the same room with that creature! 3.5 made it much more reasonable to attack a creature even if you don't have the correct weapon. Not having the proper weapon for DR shouldn't mean an impossible encounter, only a more difficult one.
Pardon me for being a bit of a wise-ass but that’s bull. The first supplement book for 3.0 Edition “Sword and Fist” page 76:
[Sure Striking: A sure striking weapon harms creatures with damage reduction as if it had a +5 enhancement bonus. Bows, crossbows, and slings cannot have the sure striking ability. CL: 6th; Prerequisite: Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Greater Magic Weapon; Market Price: +1 Bonus]
So I don’t really buy that for the most part, unless you chose not to use any supplement books at all…in which case you’d avoid using some of the more…complicated monsters (like the marut).
Besides I liked the old Damage Reduction system, made the monsters seem more mythical when your average Joe/Jane warrior couldn't take them down by numbers alone (since most myths use magical weapons/armor or genuine artifacts to do so)…but to each their own.
Also, what did they do to earn the wraith of a Marut?! The Marut is a pretty unique challenge to anyone really, why'd you'd chose that and not something like a...Glabrezu or a hydra or a dragon or something.
I thought you were jerking my chain until I looked up the Beta version of Greater Magic Weapon. That's plain ridiculous. The spell that's used to enchant magic weapons can't itself overcome DR using the Beta DR system? Utter nonsense. As in that makes no sense at all. None.Swami, you were in the Alpha discussion that led to this decision early on, but left before it reached that point. For whatever reason (probably to do with the out-of-whack gp costs), Jason (probably with input from Monte) was very keen on allowing +N weapons to bypass DR, despite your opposition. It was pointed out then that with a simple 3rd level spell from a competent sorcerer, everyone would bypass all DR all day, and +N weapons would become obsolete again. The magical theory, I guess, is that GMW provides a temporary enhancement bonus and hence no other benefits, much like you don't get any bonus skills for a headband of intelligence now unless you wear the thing for more than a day. So those mechanics are more or less standardized in the Pathfinder game now: temporary enhancement bonus = plus, but no extra benefits; permanent enhancement bonus = full benefits.
I was having computer problems. [Clutches face in hands with an expression of horror] What have I done?!
But seriously...I still strongly favor the 3.5 DR system. And I think that this sort of "your +3 sword overcomes its DR but your friend's +1 keen sword that your buddy just cast Greater Magic Weapon on doesn't, even though it's now a +3 keen sword for the duration" is going to muddy waters and lead to in-game confusion and discontent.
Bring on the golfbags of Ehlonna.
1. But seriously...I still strongly favor the 3.5 DR system.
2. And I think that this sort of "your +3 sword overcomes its DR but your friend's +1 keen sword that your buddy just cast Greater Magic Weapon on doesn't, even though it's now a +3 keen sword for the duration" is going to muddy waters and lead to in-game confusion and discontent. Bring on the golfbags of Ehlonna.
1. Yeah, I figured that. Hey, don't look at me, I proposed alternatives as well.
2. I think the idea is to encourage people to just maybe get that +2 sword, instead of always going with the +1 keen one. Or maybe occasionally go +3, instead of +1 holy. You know, re-value the +N costs. If you want to eliminate the golf bag, you can, but you just have to not get the acidic flaming frost shock weapon.
But ultimately it's a system the punishes the player who wants a cool effects sword.
The point of the modified ability enhancer magic items was to free up space for more interesting magic items with real flavor.
This ruling of plusses trump spiffy effects goes exactly opposite in direction and punishes the player who wants a more interesting weapon. And bottome line, player A who bought a sword +2 and player B who bought a +1 keen sword have both spent the same amount of money but one of them gets better mileage.
I don't like that at all. Creativity and versatility should never be trumped by mechanics.
Interesting write-up Ryan, thank you.
I do feel, as the others, that your martial guys were unnecessarily outgunned, but not directly because of the build you used. I just feel you underused the build you made, and didn't account for the "averages" accurately.
(By the way Primemover - a "half-orc barbarian with scores of 19, 12, 14, 10, 12, and 10." is point-buy 22, not 15)
A Marut is a great tough encounter for a group of warriors - an advanced one was a great hostile/social encounter even for my epic game - very solid. DR Chaotic would take a +5 weapon to bypass just without an anarchic weapon - that's not out of reach, but is a big investment. Good AC, moderate hp, and SR to cover any funny stuff. Plus plenty of damage and other effects to tear down a PC that gets too close.
Some of the above damage calculations don't account for PC's *dropping* within 2-3 rounds. And that's not to mention the Dimension Door/Fast Heal to full trick.
All that said though, let me recalculate your damage estimates, just based on the tactics you used.
- Marut will deal about 59 points of damage per round, which will take out a PC in about two rounds (maybe not dead but unable to stick around melee range).
- Not giving "credit" for a hit except on exact average is a bit nutty - you've got to work the percentages, even if conservatively.
- Fighter: 26/21/16, hits 65%/40%/15% for 1.2 times per round, at 8.5 points is 10.2 average damage per round. Except he has no reason not to use Backswing (which he has as a prereq for Devastating Blow). If he has a +6 strength mod (I'm guessing a +3 weapon with greater weapon focus), triple Strength on first attack would make average damage 15.7 per round.
- Barbarian: Seeing the fighter's blows bounce off, no way would he two-weapon fight with that orc double axe - that's the point of it - versatility. So that's attacks of 25/25/20/15 (I'm guessing typo on the last two attack bonuses), for damage of 1d8+14 (estimating +8 str bonus). He hits 60%/60%/35%/10% for 5.7 per round. I will say the bonuses sound at least a little low here, and a little improvement would do a lot - a potion of bull's strength would make this 13.3 average.
- Ranger: Again I don't quite see how the attack bonus and damage is so low. 1d8+4? He could have done that at 2nd level. A huge archer specialist would have at least a +3 bow by 15th level (or some +3 arrows). I'm guessing an attack bonus so low b/c strength is kept up with. So attack bonus: 15 + 5 dex + 1 weapon focus(?) + 3 bow = 24, rapid shot/vital strike/point blank shot for 23/23/18. Hits 50%/50%/25% for 2d8 + 8 damage. Average for a hit is 2.5, for 3.75 average per round.
- All that adds up to 15.15 per round, after fast healing. That would be 7 rounds to kill except it would drive off probably both melee people in about 5 rounds. Definitely not an easy kill, but this is with no strategy additions or magic, which you said you would account for:
Secondary Objective: Compensate for the “roles” missing in the party to show the diversity of the rules.
- Let's add just one thing - Wand of Haste instead of Wand of Fireballs, and give the melee people flanking.
- Fighter damage increases to an average of 28, Barbarian to 19 (using Powerful Blow instead of Unexpected Strike since it doesn't stack with Haste), and Ranger to 9 by casting Bull's Strength on the Barbarian (Using a bow in this situation simply isn't the best thing to be doing unless he has some Anarchic arrows - which is not out of the question). That's 46 after fast heal, kill in 3 rounds, with the ranger healing the last two rounds to keep fighter or barb in the fight.
It might seem like I squeezed every possible modifier, situation, etc. into the calculations, but really most of them are already there, and just have to be realized.
Edit: Also for the record, Marut's have no energy resistances (surprisingly), and thus just flaming weapons could increase the damage immensely. This was a good/great fight to check the group against - but they can take it!
And bottom line, player A who bought a sword +2 and player B who bought a +1 keen sword have both spent the same amount of money but one of them gets better mileage.
I don't like that at all. Creativity and versatility should never be trumped by mechanics.
Player "B" is the one who gets better mileage out of the purchase, even with the DR changes. They'll do 10-15% more damage, which is about even with the +2 at low levels, and just shoots up from there. As far as bypassing DR - Crit something - you'll bypass. Crit more often - bypass more often. And +2 doesn't bypass anything. +3 bypasses cold iron/silver - that's it - very cheap to carry around. +4 finally adamantine.
I actually prefer the 3.5 DR, but this makes *complete* sense - you're paying extremely much more for these same +1 bonuses that only stack up to a energy d6 (which bypasses DR by the way) if a 5% better chance to hit is worth 2.5 points of damage (meaning average damage of 50).
And for the record, "Greater Magic Weapon" is not "the spell used to enchant weapons". Adding enhancement bonuses has no spell prerequisite.
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I will agree that the 3.5 DR system was much more streamlined and easier to work with. If they want to keep the system as is (ala 3.0), then they need to note somewhere that Bob's +1 keen longsword functions as a +2 longsword for the purpose of overcoming DR. Because like you said, it's not fair to punish players for wanting a weapon with a little flair instead of one more plus.
And honestly, I never saw a real lack of value for +N weapons. I still had people grabbing for that +3 heavy mace instead of the +1 [insert cool ability here] longsword.
And honestly, I never saw a real lack of value for +N weapons. I still had people grabbing for that +3 heavy mace instead of the +1 [insert cool ability here] longsword.
Those are people who haven't done the math. A +1 holy longsword is flat-out better than a +3 longsword, unless the latter has some ability that the former lacks.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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(By the way Primemover - a "half-orc barbarian with scores of 19, 12, 14, 10, 12, and 10." is point-buy 22, not 15)
Not in pathfinder... All scores start at 10
Str 10, +2 race, +7 points
Dex 10, +2 points
Con 10, +4 points
Int 10, -2 race, +2 points
Wis 10, +2 race
Chr 10
7+2+4+2=15 points...
Str 10, +2 race, +7 points
Str 17 costs more than 7 points, though. There's a table for the costs.