Ranger - Favored Enemy: That Guy Over There

[Epic Meepo]

Having to choose a creature type as a favored enemy is too swingy and campaign dependent. It also makes good adventure design needlessly complicated, since the designer needs to evenly distribute creatures of different types in order to give rangers the appropriate number of encounters in which to shine.

Also, it seems somewhat silly that a ranger can get a bonus against a creature "because he is trained in fighting monsters of its type" even if he fails the Knowledge check needed to realize that the monster belongs to the creature type he has selected.

I would suggest changing the ranger's favored enemy bonus. Instead of applying against monsters of specific creature types, it should apply against one single opponent per encounter upon which a ranger focuses. The ranger isn't trained to fight specific types of monsters; instead, he is trained to observe opponents of any type and to assess their specific weaknesses. (Since the bonus would now be used in every encounter, it should probably be lowered to +1, with an additional +1 every 5 levels.)

[Aerthos]

I don't agree with the change you propose to Favored Enemy, but I do agree with one of your complaints:

Epic Meepo wrote:

Also, it seems somewhat silly that a ranger can get a bonus against a creature "because he is trained in fighting monsters of its type" even if he fails the Knowledge check needed to realize that the monster belongs to the creature type he has selected.

Perhaps to fix this issue, give Rangers a bonus on Knowledge checks to identify creature of their favored enemy type. If he fails the knowledge check, he doesn't get the favored enemy bonus. Seems like a simple enough addendum while remaining backwards compatible.

[Vulcan Stormwrath]

Aerthos wrote:

I don't agree with the change you propose to Favored Enemy, but I do agree with one of your complaints:

Epic Meepo wrote:

Also, it seems somewhat silly that a ranger can get a bonus against a creature "because he is trained in fighting monsters of its type" even if he fails the Knowledge check needed to realize that the monster belongs to the creature type he has selected.

Perhaps to fix this issue, give Rangers a bonus on Knowledge checks to identify creature of their favored enemy type. If he fails the knowledge check, he doesn't get the favored enemy bonus. Seems like a simple enough addendum while remaining backwards compatible.

This I really like.

[Kalyth]

Aerthos wrote:

I don't agree with the change you propose to Favored Enemy, but I do agree with one of your complaints:

Epic Meepo wrote:

Also, it seems somewhat silly that a ranger can get a bonus against a creature "because he is trained in fighting monsters of its type" even if he fails the Knowledge check needed to realize that the monster belongs to the creature type he has selected.

Perhaps to fix this issue, give Rangers a bonus on Knowledge checks to identify creature of their favored enemy type. If he fails the knowledge check, he doesn't get the favored enemy bonus. Seems like a simple enough addendum while remaining backwards compatible.

I dont aggree. Just because the ranger doesnt know the name of a creature doesnt necessarily mean that his training suddenly becomes unimportant. It could in alot of cases but in some his training would still prove useful.

"Im not sure what this huminoid creature is but its pretty big and fights like a giant. It uses the same heavy handed blows that leave it open to quick thrust attacks just like most giants do."

The bonus to attacks and such I would say more relate to the ranger being familiar and trained in how the creature positions its self in combat and what type of attack routines it typically employs. These would all be come very evident as soon as combat was engaged. Sure he wouldnt know that you need silver to by pass its damage reduction or things like that but that isnt what the bonus are representing most of the time. Information like that would be the result of the knowledge check which he failed. But he still has training fighting opponents that use Claw/Claw/Bite/death roll/rake routines, etc.. and he is very well trained in reacting to those manuevers whether or not he can identify the monster.

I do agree thought that rangers should recieve a bonus to knowledge check related to favored enemies. Just not that the favored enemy bonuses should be lost just because he cant identify the opponents specific type.

If it fights like an orc, then fight it like its an orc and figure out why its purple later.

[Montalve]

mmm ok i agree in both issues... while not always the ranger might find his favored enemy... and it will be silly if every encounter might show one of them (unless you are fighting demons in the demonwound, undeads in a realm of the dead... fey in the lands of the ice queen.. and places like that... which would be natural)

i also agree that the ranger would not use his same tactics that work well versus his favored enemy gainst one that he is not sure... but he should get a knowledge roll after each round,... because he will see his enemy tactics and recognise them

obvoisly... either the knowledge to know his enemies is class skill or it should get a bonus to confront and detect such enemies... that is why he doesn't recognice them... he is supposed to bean expert, but he has no knowledge about them...

Epic Meepo wrote:

I would suggest changing the ranger's favored enemy bonus. Instead of applying against monsters of specific creature types, it should apply against one single opponent per encounter upon which a ranger focuses. The ranger isn't trained to fight specific types of monsters; instead, he is trained to observe opponents of any type and to assess their specific weaknesses. (Since the bonus would now be used in every encounter, it should probably be lowered to +1, with an additional +1 every 5 levels.)

but this i like for an optional favored enemy

instead of taking one race, he can get this bonus for one creature... in an encounter AFTER studying it for at lrast 3 rounds... or for a full day if he was able to study it/him for at least an hour

why? this reminds me of the Iron Heroes's Hunter skill to study his enemy for disadvantages and flaws to use against him... also if Rangers are supposed to be hunters of great skill... but this comes from observation of the prey... you jsut found a bear... you have no advantage over it,... but you saw it in the distance... you are able to prepare for it if he cames for you...

yeah yeah i know more recording... if poeple wants nice advantage they should be able to record this kind of things...

[Dennis da Ogre]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Having to choose a creature type as a favored enemy is too swingy and campaign dependent. It also makes good adventure design needlessly complicated, since the designer needs to evenly distribute creatures of different types in order to give rangers the appropriate number of encounters in which to shine.

This is a DM dependent thing... that said it's a problem for more than just rangers. I've heard of people building fire themed sorcerers and have the DM put the party through a campaign with fire giants, red dragons, etc. IMO the DM should provide at least a small amount of hinting of what's to come as the campaign progresses so the characters have a chance to build effective characters.

Adventure Paths generally give the players enough hinting so the players have a clue. The players that suffer a bit are the ones who wind up playing a series of unrelated adventures.

Epic Meepo wrote:

Also, it seems somewhat silly that a ranger can get a bonus against a creature "because he is trained in fighting monsters of its type" even if he fails the Knowledge check needed to realize that the monster belongs to the creature type he has selected.

"I don't know what this thing is but it sure moves like a giant. Maybe it fights like a giant too? Gotcha!"

I don't see this as a huge problem myself.

Epic Meepo wrote:

I would suggest changing the ranger's favored enemy bonus. Instead of applying against monsters of specific creature types, it should apply against one single opponent per encounter upon which a ranger focuses. The ranger isn't trained to fight specific types of monsters; instead, he is trained to observe opponents of any type and to assess their specific weaknesses. (Since the bonus would now be used in every encounter, it should probably be lowered to +1, with an additional +1 every 5 levels.)

This actually makes the skill much weaker than it currently is. Sure the ranger gets to use it every encounter but only against one enemy and the bonus will be too low to be particularly impressive. Under the current rules a ranger can seriously dish out damage against large groups of related enemies. The new bonus which affects attack bonus as well as damage makes it even more telling. So less swingy but less powerful.

I like favored enemy because it is a class feature that leans on role playing. My halfling ranger has favored enemy (human) because he was caught up in the slave trade.

[Phlebas]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

..........

I like favored enemy because it is a class feature that leans on role playing. My halfling ranger has favored enemy (human) because he was caught up in the slave trade.

Agreed - I always liked the roleplay element of favoured enemy as it is one of the few concrete benefits for flavour choices

(my Cyran Scout had undead as favoured enemy because of his time fighting Karnathi!)

Having said that it can give encounter design issues so allowing some kind of retraining (eg when you change your favoured enemy bonus)wouldn't be too game breaking - i was thinking of shuffling bonus between the enemies you'd picked more than choosing completely new enemies

[Dennis da Ogre]

Well when it all boils down Epic M is right about the swinginess of the class. Poor player choice or a hard a$$ DM can easily make this class feature a dud. I don't care for the idea of retraining... "Suddenly he doesn't hate orcs so much, it's drow that Braggan really hates!"--- Meh

Obviously the ranger gets a 'retraining' every 5 levels but that's often too little too late. I also don't think that allowing a player to regigger FE for every dungeon is reasonable either.