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Acrobatics [DEX] jump, tumble, balance, escape artist
Athletics [STR] climb, fly, swim
Pilot [DEX] (new skill) profession sailor
Ride [DEX]
Sleight of Hand [DEX] feint (from bluff)
Stealth [DEX] hide, move silently
Bluff [CHA] disguise
Diplomacy [CHA] perform oratory
Intimidate [CHA]
Perception [WIS] spot, listen, search
Sense Motive [WIS]
Arcana [INT] appraise/identify magic items, knowledge arcana, craft alchemy
Arms [INT] appraise/identify weapons and armor, craft armor, craft weapons, craft bows
Craft [INT] appraise equipment and construction, craft equipment and buildings, knowledge engineering
Device [INT] appraise traps, disable device, open locks, craft traps
Finery [INT] appraise art objects, forgery, craft jewelry, craft art objects
Dungeoneering [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Handle Animal [INT]
Heal [INT]
History [INT] knowledge local, knowledge geography, knowledge nobility
Nature [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Religion [INT] knowledge planes
Spellcraft [INT] concentration, use magic device
Non ranked skills
Linguistics [none] each rank gives a bonus language
Perform – deleted?
Profession [none] each rank gives a bonus profession
Acrobatics [DEX] jump, tumble, balance, escape artist
Athletics [STR] climb, fly, swim
Escape artist shouldn't be grouped with acrobatics. There are many acrobats who can't escape restraints. If anything, this should be grouped with sleight of hand, although that glosses over the contortion aspects of escapology, at least it includes palming a lockpick etc.
Athletics is a horrible, ugly word I would never want in a fantasy game. Athleticism implies sporting. I don't see an overlapping skillset involving Climbing, Flight, and Swimming. Plenty of people in this day and age can't swim or swim well. No reason ranks in Climb should have any bearing on the other two.
Pilot [DEX] (new skill) profession sailor
Ride [DEX]
Sleight of Hand [DEX] feint (from bluff)
Stealth [DEX] hide, move silently
Pilot is not the word I would choose for this. I have had a steampunk fantasy game that needed an "Operate()" skill, however, sailing is a profession that requires a large number of basically unrelated skills, and I think it is best left as a profession.
Sleight of hand is used for picking pockets. That's good enough. Bluff is used for lying, and feinting. These two can be related, but most uses of Bluff in my games would not fall anywhere near sleight of hand.
Bluff [CHA] disguise
Diplomacy [CHA] perform oratory
Intimidate [CHA]
I personally thing Disguise is a craft skill. Wearing a disguise is Bluff.
Perform Oratory should stay. Being diplomatic is quite different from spinning a riveting yarn, or from memorizing epic poetry and being able to recite it without your audience falling asleep.
Perception [WIS] spot, listen, search
Sense Motive [WIS]
I would love it if sense motive were "Intuition."
Arcana [INT] appraise/identify magic items, knowledge arcana, craft alchemy
Arms [INT] appraise/identify weapons and armor, craft armor, craft weapons, craft bows
Craft [INT] appraise equipment and construction, craft equipment and buildings, knowledge engineering
Device [INT] appraise traps, disable device, open locks, craft traps
Finery [INT] appraise art objects, forgery, craft jewelry, craft art objects
Dungeoneering [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Handle Animal [INT]
Heal [INT]
History [INT] knowledge local, knowledge geography, knowledge nobility
Nature [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Religion [INT] knowledge planes
Spellcraft [INT] concentration, use magic device
So you've moved Craft into Knowledge skills? This is interesting. I'll have to think about it.
Use Magic Device into Spellcraft makes sense in a way, but it has far reaching consequences. It's a powerful skill, I think it needs its own ranks, and a better name.
Non ranked skills
Linguistics [none] each rank gives a bonus language
Perform – deleted?
Profession [none] each rank gives a bonus profession
I disagree on these last three. Performance is a worthy skill in a world without MP3 players. Maybe not for everyone, but even newbs can figure that out without being told.
You shouldn't be able to learn many professions that quickly.
Linguistics is nice as it is, I think.
Skill lists are largely a matter of taste. In some cases, you've merged skills that you perceive as less useful, but some (climb) might see a lot of use in some campaigns, and some are purely flavorful (perform). Hope this helps!
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Escape artist shouldn't be grouped with acrobatics. There are many acrobats who can't escape restraints. If anything, this should be grouped with sleight of hand, although that glosses over the contortion aspects of escapology, at least it includes palming a lockpick etc.Athletics is a horrible, ugly word I would never want in a fantasy game. Athleticism implies sporting. I don't see an overlapping skillset involving Climbing, Flight, and Swimming. Plenty of people in this day and age can't swim or swim well. No reason ranks in Climb should have any bearing on the other two.
I think we are looking at acrobatics and athletics as two fundamentally different things. I don't really care what the name of those two skills are all I am seeing is "trained strength" and "trained dexterity" Someone who is trained in dex is going to be very agile and be able to wiggle out of a monsters grasp. Something trained in str is going to be able to fly against a heavy wind and not get swept up by it, they are going to more likely be able climb better. They are more likely to swim better. This skill list very much wants to get rid of the minutia and hone it down to the core elements of skills. It also comes from the perspective - characters do not have enough skill points.
Pilot is not the word I would choose for this. I have had a steampunk fantasy game that needed an "Operate()" skill, however, sailing is a profession that requires a large number of basically unrelated skills, and I think it is best left as a profession.
I might use "Engineering" instead in that game and couple low level "Use" with high level "Crafting". This is the approach I took with the merging of the craft skills.
This could work too:
Drive [DEX]
Pilot [INT]
Sleight of hand is used for picking pockets. That's good enough. Bluff is used for lying, and feinting. These two can be related, but most uses of Bluff in my games would not fall anywhere near sleight of hand.
If I had it my way, I would remove the create distraction, feint, and other abilities from skills and just make them "tricks" - not applying them to any one skill. Instead apply them to multiple skills. A distraction for instance could be created with intimidate, or bluff, or disable device (sabotage) - not only bluff. Having some of the skills only accommodate one thing is a little heavy handed. A little more free form with the skills would be a welcome addition in my game. More free-form means less specific skills.
I personally thing Disguise is a craft skill. Wearing a disguise is Bluff.Perform Oratory should stay. Being diplomatic is quite different from spinning a riveting yarn, or from memorizing epic poetry and being able to recite it without your audience falling asleep.
Disguise as a bluff or a craft whatever, I have rarely had it come into play in my games.
I would love it if sense motive were "Intuition."
Agreed Intuition is a good word for it.
Use Magic Device into Spellcraft makes sense in a way, but it has far reaching consequences. It's a powerful skill, I think it needs its own ranks, and a better name.
UMD is powerful, quite honestly I would prefer it as a class feature and not a skill because it is so powerful. When skills come up I will make a stake for that.
I disagree on these last three. Performance is a worthy skill in a world without MP3 players. Maybe not for everyone, but even newbs can figure that out without being told.You shouldn't be able to learn many professions that quickly.
Perform should just be one of those flavor things. Who cares if a character has a harmonica. Just like if they cook or whatever. If anything take profession (harmonica player).
Perform is a skill tax for a Bard and a few PrCs that is it.
What does the profession skill do? It allows you to make money at a job. It does not give you the skills to do that job just to make money at whatever. Example: profession (investigator) does not give you "search", "spot" or anything just the ability to call your self an investigator and make a couple gold per week. If that is all it is it should be like a language spend a couple points and get a profession. No need to waste any more points than 1 for essentially a flavor skill.
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Pilot should be a Int. based skill not Dex. Piloting a ship is a learned set of skills not a Dex. based wresling match. I could see some Str. checks during rough seas though.
Agreed there are two types of vehicle piloting though. "Chariot" or "Rowboat" which would be DEX based and "Ship" or Balloon" which could be INT based.
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I think we are looking at acrobatics and athletics as two fundamentally different things. I don't really care what the name of those two skills are all I am seeing is "trained strength" and "trained dexterity" Someone who is trained in dex is going to be very agile and be able to wiggle out of a monsters grasp. Something trained in str is going to be able to fly against a heavy wind and not get swept up by it, they are going to more likely be able climb better. They are more likely to swim better. This skill list very much wants to get rid of the minutia and hone it down to the core elements of skills. It also comes from the perspective - characters do not have enough skill points.
So why not go further? Why not have six skills:
Trained Strength
Trained Dexterity
Trained Constitution
Trained Intelligence
Trained Wisdom
Trained Charisma
Trained Strength
Trained Dexterity
Trained Constitution
Trained Intelligence
Trained Wisdom
Trained Charisma
:D
Yeah, it's not a thread about skills until someone facetiously suggests having one skill. So:
Why don't we have one skill, called "skill?"
Anyway, it seems like I wouldn't enjoy being a player under your skill list, A_T. Some of the things you have redacted for being "useless" are the skills I feel add the most to 3.5 characters. To each their own of course— I play with a "patched" skill list that works to my own taste, and so shall you!
But I would be sad to see open-ended skills like Craft, Profession, and Perform go. Likewise, I just don't see common ground between climb and swim, and even less with fly.
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So why not go further? Why not have six skills:Trained Strength
Trained Dexterity
Trained Constitution
Trained Intelligence
Trained Wisdom
Trained Charisma
Ok, I'll bite. First off, I should have said "physically trained in strength" and "physically trained in dexterity". Not every dex skill should fall under "dex skill". Physical skills are one of those things were you get good at one and it rubs over to the other physical skills. So, no it would be playable to do the aforementioned skills but not practical.
This might be a good exercise in system complexity, by working backwards and putting in skill diversity.
Level 1
The dex skill (all dex skills)
Level 2
Agility (tumbling, balance, jump, escape artist, ride etc.)
Subterfuge (stealth, sleight of hand, feint etc.)
Level 3
What is this level
Level 4 (pathfinder)
Level 5 (3.5)
Only levels 3 and 4 are of interest to me.
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Couple of changes to the list below as per the discussion. (It is really too bad you cannot go back and edit previous post on this forum.)
Agility [DEX] jump, tumble, balance, escape artist
Drive [DEX] (new skill)
Might [STR] climb, fly, swim
Ride [DEX]
Sleight of Hand [DEX] feint (from bluff)
Stealth [DEX] hide, move silently
Bluff [CHA] disguise
Diplomacy [CHA] perform oratory
Intimidate [CHA]
Perception [WIS] spot, listen, search
Sense Motive [WIS]
Arms [INT] appraise weapons and armor, craft armor, craft weapons, craft bows
Craft [INT] appraise items and construction, craft items and buildings, knowledge engineering
Device [INT] appraise traps, disable device, open locks, craft traps
Finery [INT] appraise art objects, forgery, craft jewelry, craft art objects
Spellcraft [INT] appraise magic items, concentration, use magic device, craft alchemy
Arcana [INT] knowledge planes
Dungeoneering [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Handle Animal [INT]
Heal [INT]
History [INT] knowledge local, knowledge geography, knowledge nobility
Nature [INT] survival, knowledge geography
Pilot [INT] (new skill) profession sailor
Religion [INT] knowledge planes
Non-ranked skills
Linguistics [none] each rank gives a bonus language
Profession [none] perform, each rank gives a bonus profession
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Only levels 3 and 4 are of interest to me.
Only levels 4 and 5 are of any interest to me. That said, I have no problem with your consolidated skill list for you. If it works for you and your players, and you like it better than the other systems you have tried, you SHOULD use it.
But I would not enjoy it.
Pilot [DEX] (new skill) profession sailor
Pilot is not the word I would choose for this. I have had a steampunk fantasy game that needed an "Operate()" skill, however, sailing is a profession that requires a large number of basically unrelated skills, and I think it is best left as a profession.
Since I have lots of sea-faring in my campaign, I too need a skill to cover ship-handling. Profession (sailor) simply doesn't work. The profession skill was intended to allow character to make money, not to be a catch-all for missing mechanics. Furthermore, I prefer to have only a single profession skill that serves as an indicator of how good a character is at earning money by putting all of their abilities to good use, no matter how unique their portfolio. As a character progresses in their career, their actual job title is may change, but what they are doing remains the profession.
Looking at other relevant rules that are already in place...
Knowledge (geography) can already cover navigation, chart-reading, and the plotting of courses.
Knowledge (engineering) can already cover the know-how needed for repairing a vessel, and the theory of how things should work.
What's needed then is a Wis or Dex-based skill that puts that knowledge into action, that ties things together, and scales from the handling of sails and rigging, to actually taking the helm.
Lower DC uses include tending to sails and rigging, whereas the DCs to pilot are higher and tied to the size of the vessel.
The decision between whether to make it a Dex/reaction-based skill, or a Wis/perceptiveness-based skill is a tough one. On the one hand, you have able-bodied sailors, and a helmsman with quick reflexes. On the other, you have the wise captain who has seen it all, and intuitively knows when to react.
Wis-based has better backwards compatability with Profession (sailor), but then if we didn't like that skill to begin with, then that concern is mitigated.
Dex-based is more in keeping with the Ride skill. It is also what both d20 Modern, and the d20 version of StarWars both use for their Pilot skills. In both cases, their skill specifies that it's for a general type of craft, but that large craft require an appropriate feat to pilot, or you suffer a -4 penalty for being non-proficient.
I myself am inclined to go with the Dex-based approach. To me, using Wisdom for this skill is almost like trying to have the rules replace player judgment and roleplaying. If the character captaining a vessel is a wise old salty dog, the mechanics that come into play from trying to act upon their decisions will determine the captain's wisdom.
Initially, I considered naming the relevant skill "Pilot", but there's a lot more involved in keeping a ship operational and moving than just "sitting in the driver's seat" (as one would in d20 Modern/StarWars). Also, on a large vessel, it takes more people than just the pilot and engineer to keep things moving. Provided you have a sufficient number of crewmen, with a base-line number of ranks in the skill though, the helmsman would be the one making most of the checks.
To cover both crewing and piloting, etc., I myself have decided to name this trained-only skill "Handle Ship". It is a class skill for barbarian, bard, fighter, rogue, and clerics/druids with the Travel or Water domain.
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Pilot should be a Int. based skill not Dex. Piloting a ship is a learned set of skills not a Dex. based wresling match. I could see some Str. checks during rough seas though.Agreed there are two types of vehicle piloting though. "Chariot" or "Rowboat" which would be DEX based and "Ship" or Balloon" which could be INT based.
Pilot skill (Int. based) should be used for aquatic or aeronatic manuvering, using separate skill for each type, i.e. sail ship, river boat, flying carpet, etc.
Driving (Dex based) should be use for ground based transportation i.e., chariot, cart, etc.