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This is a repost from another thread that I realized I was hijacking so here is the post on its own:
I think DEX should not be limited by armor. Period. However, it should be limited by encumbrance.
If you are not proficient in the armor type, double the effective weight of the armor.
I also think that the encumbrance rules should be rewritten and that armor should simply add to the character encumbrance. Following this guideline:
Light Load: Full Speed, Max Dex Bonus any, Attacks, Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -0, Run x4
Medium Load: 3/4 Speed, Max Dex Bonus 3, Attacks, Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -3, Run x3
Heavy Load: 1/2 Speed, Max Dex 1, Attacks, Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -6, Run x3
Example Strengths
Str Light Medium Heavy
10 33 lb. or less 34–66 lb. 67–100 lb.
15 66 lb. or less 67–133 lb. 134–200 lb.
20 133 lb. or less 134–266 lb. 267–400 lb.
Armor would essentially be:
Light armor
Padded 5 gp +1 5% 10/20 lb.
Leather 10 gp +2 10% 15/30 lb.
Studded leather 25 gp +3 15% 20/40 lb.
Chain shirt 100 gp +4 20% 25/50 lb.
Medium armor
Hide 15 gp +3 20% 25/50 lb.
Scale mail 50 gp +4 25% 30/60 lb.
Chainmail 150 gp +5 30% 40/80 lb.
Breastplate 200 gp +5 25% 30/60 lb.
Heavy armor
Splint mail 200 gp +6 40% 45/90 lb.
Banded mail 250 gp +6 35% 35/70 lb.
Half-plate 600 gp +7 40% 50/100 lb.
Full plate 1,500 gp +8 35% 50/100 lb.
Shields
Could be tied and considered "weapons" and removed completely from the armor table.
Buckler and light shield are simple
Heavy is martial
Tower is exotic
They are already on the weapons tables in 3.5. All you have to do is move their descriptions from the armor table and put them in the weapon descriptions.
I also think that shields could move up in AC value
Buckler +1 shield bonus
Light +2 shield bonus
Heavy +3 shield bonus
Tower +4 shield bonus
I think the tower shield should remove the wonkey cover rules that it has. Instead, I think a shield should apply 1/2 its AC bonus to reflex saves.
Example: a +3 heavy shield (+6) would add a +3 to reflex saves.
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If you are not proficient in the armor type, double the effective weight of the armor.
I don't know if this number is exactly right, it could be triple, I don't know. But the concept stands, combining the encumbrance rules with the armor rules so that you do not have two systems that do the same thing living together in the same book.
Encumbrance, becomes a lot more important in these rules. I would simplify encumbrance so that you don't have to track minutia. Possibly only tracking in this fashion.
Armor X
Weapons X
Pouch (if full 5)
Sack (if full 10)
Backpack (if full 15)
Define what it takes to fill up each of those and add up the weight. In this way their would be no need to track every piece of equipment or coin.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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If you are not proficient in the armor type, double the effective weight of the armor.
I don't know if this number is exactly right, it could be triple, I don't know. But the concept stands, combining the encumbrance rules with the armor rules so that you do not have two systems that do the same thing living together in the same book.
Encumbrance, becomes a lot more important in these rules. I would simplify encumbrance so that you don't have to track minutia. Possibly only tracking in this fashion.
Armor X
Weapons X
Pouch (if full 5)
Sack (if full 10)
Backpack (if full 15)Define what it takes to fill up each of those and add up the weight. In this way their would be no need to track every piece of equipment or coin.
Some interesting ideas. I've always had problems with how armor worked in terms of speed, etc., and how medium armor pretty much sucks as soon as you can afford heavy (or simply never go past the chain shirt.) My vauge unformed thoughts would include the non-backwards compatible changing of chain shirt and breastplate to not be the best AC for their category, but be the 2nd best with lesser penalties, since I'd rather have full suit armors give better AC than only the torso armors.
As for your encumberance tracking simplification, I think that's a bit too simple. It would be fine to say that containers weigh a certain amount when full, but there's lots of stuff that should still count for weight not on your list, such as a portable ram for instanace, or blacksmith tools. I don't care if you put them in a backpack, they're simply too heavy to be ignored if you want a character to be lugging them around.
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Some interesting ideas. I've always had problems with how armor worked in terms of speed, etc., and how medium armor pretty much sucks as soon as you can afford heavy (or simply never go past the chain shirt.) My vauge unformed thoughts would include the non-backwards compatible changing of chain shirt and breastplate to not be the best AC for their category, but be the 2nd best with lesser penalties, since I'd rather have full suit armors give better AC than only the torso armors.
No need to change the chain shirt under these rules. Instead it is the heaviest and if you do not have light armor proficiency you now have to deal with its 50 pound load. There are some hickups though in the system very strong characters can walk around without having any proficiency in the armor like they are wearing clothes. Is that right? Should their be some token penalty for not having proficiency? I think so here is the encumbrance chart redone with that concept in mind.
Light Load: Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, Attacks and Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -0
Medium Load: 3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, Attacks and Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -3
Heavy Load: 1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, Attacks and Str and Dex Based Skill Checks -6
Non-proficiency in armor lower the max dex by 1 or gives a max dex of 6 and gives an additional -2 to all Attacks and Str and Dex Based Skill Checks.
On a side note about backwards compatible systems, I have always liked this concept (4e grabbed on this a little)
Armor Type
Light: +0
Medium: +2
Heavy: +4
Armor Material
cloth: +0
Leather: +2
mail: +3
plate: +4
Then add wood, crystal, bone, hide, chain, studded, scale, etc. and you have a very diverse group of armors. Light plate is +4 AC, Heavy Mail is +7. Simple and to the point, but, not backward compatible.
As for your encumberance tracking simplification, I think that's a bit too simple. It would be fine to say that containers weigh a certain amount when full, but there's lots of stuff that should still count for weight not on your list, such as a portable ram for instanace, or blacksmith tools. I don't care if you put them in a backpack, they're simply too heavy to be ignored if you want a character to be lugging them around.
Agreed, the system is garbage. :p
Encumbrance has always been one of those time-eaters for my group and we have essentially dropped it from play. Making the system less time consuming might be the right way to go.
How about this:
Make the weight abstract. You can carry a number of points equal to your strength score for your light load, double that for medium and triple it for heavy. This would ignore size unless so, a halfling as long as he has equipment sized appropriate to himself weighs - to him - the same as it would to a medium sized creature. For instance a halfling wearing leather (say it is 3 encumbrance points) takes the same number of encumbrance points away as human wearing leather (3 points).
Weights would need to be reclassified and minutia weights would be ignored unless you had a lot of something. For instance, you would not track a flint and steel but if you have 10 of them you might. Maybe, 1 encumbrance point would equal around 3 pounds?
I am using this right now.
Also, Spell Failure % should apply to encumbrance.
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I am using this right now.
Also, Spell Failure % should apply to encumbrance.
Hmm, good point.
Light Load: Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, -0 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -0, Arcane Spell Failure 0%
Medium Load: 3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -3, Arcane Spell Failure 20%
Heavy Load: 1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -6, Arcane Spell Failure 40%
Non-proficiency in armor:
* doubles the weight of the armor
* gives -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I am using this right now.
Also, Spell Failure % should apply to encumbrance.
Hmm, good point.
Light Load: Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, -0 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -0, Arcane Spell Failure 0%
Medium Load: 3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -3, Arcane Spell Failure 20%
Heavy Load: 1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -6, Arcane Spell Failure 40%Non-proficiency in armor:
* doubles the weight of the armor
* gives -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks
I'd add that non-proficient in armor also adds 5 or 10% to the arcane spell failure, or you'll have wizards and sorcerers running around in chain shirts or leather armor with no penalty (unless you want this change - but that would devalue the bard's ability to cast in light armor with no penalty.)
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I'd add that non-proficient in armor also adds 5 or 10% to the arcane spell failure, or you'll have wizards and sorcerers running around in chain shirts or leather armor with no penalty (unless you want this change - but that would devalue the bard's ability to cast in light armor with no penalty.)I am using this right now.
Also, Spell Failure % should apply to encumbrance.
Hmm, good point.
Light Load: Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, -0 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -0, Arcane Spell Failure 0%
Medium Load: 3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -3, Arcane Spell Failure 20%
Heavy Load: 1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -6, Arcane Spell Failure 40%Non-proficiency in armor:
* doubles the weight of the armor
* gives -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks
Rather than giving the bard the ability to cast in light armor with no penalty, just give them the ability to ignore a certain percentage of ASF. For example, 5% at 1st and +5% every 5th level (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) - ignoring ASF of up to 25% at 20th level... And reducing it from heavier armors.
I think arcane spell chance failure should remain the same as is.
Do you mean ASF should exist for wearing Studded Leather, but not for carrying two dead Half-Orc bodies over your shoulders? So Load Encumbrance should only apply to DEX/STR based SKILLS, but not "Somatic Movements" of Spell Casting?
I think the ASF rating of Armor should be the MINIMUM ASF - Load Encumbrance would SUPERSEDE it, even if you're just wearing a loincloth, if you're loaded down like a mule, that might get in the way of subtly timed gestures, etc...
Or, if you just use one mechanic for all of this.
Call it Load. It determines your Max Dex, ASF, and Speed Modifier.
Check penalty should probably stay as it is.
Also, I went looking for the Strength-to-Load formula, and found it! It's ridiculously complex:
Heavy Load = 25*2^(Strength Score/5)
Medium Load = Heavy Load * .66
Light Load = Heavy Load * .33
Memorize this now! It will save you the trouble of looking up that wretched table!
Hm. But I think the sentiment from Hexen is concerned with the idea that Armor should/needs to impose an ASF% on spells irrespective of Encumbrance (Casters shouldn't just need to cast Bull's Strength to nullify ASF%)
BUT, it makes sense for WEIGTH LOAD to penalize ASF...
SO, why not:
Load Encumbrance determines Speed
and
Load Encumbrance AND Armor determine ASF%, Skill Penalties, Max Dex., and Run Multiplier?
The super strong Warriors running around in Heavy Plate MAY be ABLE to jog at a decent clip, but their Balance checks will be penalized appropriately, and make it more likely they'll trip. ARMOR would just determine the MINIMUM levels of these penalties, maintaining the "backwards compatability" of the general Armor=/=Caster relationship.
It would be a bit 'cleaner' if all the penalties were associated, so if there'a a Fighter10/Wizard10, their Armor Training reducing the Skill Check Penalties would also reduce the ASF% (since "Somatic Movements" are basically DEX-based actions, although you don't need to be particularly Dextrous for them to succeed)
I originally thought having only ONE Load Table woudl be best, but things like Armor-ASF% are pretty Core, and shouldn't be counterable by 2nd Level Spells.
Personally, I hate ASF, just as I hate miss chance. If you're going to include % dice, you should do it in increments other than 5% which are what a d20 does. And it's the d20 system.
Heaven help us all if a wizard wearing armor shoots a ray through the fog at a creature with spell resistance. How many rolls do we need on one spell? REALLY.
I would like to see ASF just go away, or turn into something else. Lower Save DCs or something— that's the simplest, extra-roll-free way to say "you're a wizard in armor, so life sucks." Or caster level. Anything but tacking on another chance for a spell to just fizzle outright!
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Ok, so here is the final rule on this? Are there any unforeseen consequences of implementing this system?
Light armor
Padded 5 gp +1 5% 10/20 lb.
Leather 10 gp +2 10% 15/30 lb.
Studded leather 25 gp +3 15% 20/40 lb.
Chain shirt 100 gp +4 20% 25/50 lb.
Medium armor
Hide 15 gp +3 20% 25/50 lb.
Scale mail 50 gp +4 25% 30/60 lb.
Chainmail 150 gp +5 30% 40/80 lb.
Breastplate 200 gp +5 25% 30/60 lb.
Heavy armor
Splint mail 200 gp +6 40% 45/90 lb.
Banded mail 250 gp +6 35% 35/70 lb.
Half-plate 600 gp +7 40% 50/100 lb.
Full plate 1,500 gp +8 35% 50/100 lb.
Light Load
Full Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus any, -0 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -0
Medium Load
3/4 Speed, Run x4, Max Dex Bonus 3, -3 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -3
Heavy Load
1/2 Speed, Run x3, Max Dex 1, -6 to Attack rolls, Str and Dex based skill checks -6
Light Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the light armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.
Medium Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Light Armor Proficiency
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the hedium armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.
Heavy Armor Proficiency [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Medium Armor Proficiency
Benefit: Use armor without penalty.
Normal: double the effective weight of the heavy armor. -2 to Attack rolls and Str and Dex based skill checks.
If you hate ASF, what's wrong with keeping ACP as it is? The feats as written already apply the ACP to attack rolls and Str/Dex checks if you're not trained in the armour.
Hm, I agree the d100 for ASF% is silly,
there's no reason it shouldn't be implemented using d20, as they're all 5% chances anyhow... The thing is, the whole Encumbrance: Light-0/Medium-3/Heavy-6 is pretty contrived and non-contiguous. Why should load be less fluid than the ACP?
Why not BRING IN ASF% to correspond to the ACP, and make this ACP/ASF% scale fluidly from 0 to whatever? Like I mentioned, things that reduce the ACP, like Masterwork or Armor Training, would thus equally apply to the new d20 ASF... (ASF is probably higher than the ACP, say, +1(5%) at each step of Armor/Load to reflect the finnicky nature of magic)
So ASF% would become something like Concealment with d20 chance, i.e. 5%/1,10%/2,15%/3,4,5,6...
This would also mean that LOAD ENCUMBRANCE is given the same fluidity, i.e. not just Light(0), Medium(-3), Heavy(-6), but it would give the effect that most characters who are moderately equiped would have SOME ACP/ASF, unless they're specifically "going light", whereas currently there's no penalty at all to carrying as much as gear as you can up to your STR's Light Encumbrance limit...
....????
(...) I think DEX should not be limited by armor. Period. However, it should be limited by encumbrance. (...)
A T, that is a good idea, and a perfect example on how the system can be rationalized and streamlined.
However, this forces players and DMs to calculate load / encumbrance and keep a precise track of who got what. And gold... Not a lot of player calculate what 5000 gp weight. While this is not a bad thing in itself, I know that many consider that as a chore, so it often get "rounded out".
For the better or for the worst, I know a lot of DMs that are not too picky about encumbrance simply because they hate the drag of having to calculate every body's equipment by-the-pound. And they there are the bag of holdings to throw everything out balance.
While it creates a clumsy game mechanic, armor is pretty much the only thing we care about as far as encumbrance is concerned, so it makes some sense that armor carries the penalty...
'findel