Bardic Song of Death

[tasslehoff220]

Ok, so the Pathfinder bard can do stuff rather than just buff his allies with his song. I like this but looking at the 20th level ability it seems a bit over the top for two reasons.

First, pathfinder seems to have attempted to do away with save of die effects replacing them with 10 damage per level. This ability and that of the 20th level rogue break this trend. I would rather the game remain consistent and stick to massive damage with these two effects but as the rules are written I do not feel that is actually a major problem nor is it the fact that it is a will save (death effects are tradtionally fort saves, any fighter opponent will probably bite it every time).

Second, what is actually the problem is what happens on a successful save. The bard's opponent is stunned for a d4 rounds. This is way too powerful. Otto's irresistable dance was recognized to be too poweful so it was nerfed. Compare this ability to the unnerfed version. 1d4 rounds automatic stun at a range without a touch attack or SR. Wow! And the bard can do it 20+ times per day (albeit to different opponents). This is insane. Every 20th level combat against a big creature will be boring and against groups the bard just goes through them 1 at a time. Bards should have some reason to buff. This ability should definitely be will negates not will partial. What do other people think about this?

[Lord Fyre]

tasslehoff220 wrote:

Ok, so the Pathfinder bard can do stuff rather than just buff his allies with his song. I like this but looking at the 20th level ability it seems a bit over the top for two reasons.

First, pathfinder seems to have attempted to do away with save of die effects replacing them with 10 damage per level. This ability and that of the 20th level rogue break this trend. I would rather the game remain consistent and stick to massive damage with these two effects but as the rules are written I do not feel that is actually a major problem nor is it the fact that it is a will save (death effects are tradtionally fort saves, any fighter opponent will probably bite it every time).

Second, what is actually the problem is what happens on a successful save. The bard's opponent is stunned for a d4 rounds. This is way too powerful. Otto's irresistable dance was recognized to be too poweful so it was nerfed. Compare this ability to the unnerfed version. 1d4 rounds automatic stun at a range without a touch attack or SR. Wow! And the bard can do it 20+ times per day (albeit to different opponents). This is insane. Every 20th level combat against a big creature will be boring and against groups the bard just goes through them 1 at a time. Bards should have some reason to buff. This ability should definitely be will negates not will partial. What do other people think about this?

(with appologies to Charles Fox and Norman Gimbel.)

Struming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softy with his song
Killing me softly with his song
telling my whole life
with his words
killing me softly with his song

I heard he sang a good song
I heard he had a style
and so i came to see
and listen for a while
and there he was this younge boy
a stranger to my eyes

Struming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softy with his song
Killing me softly with his song
telling my whole life
with his words
killing me softly with his song

I felt all flushed with fever
Embarrassed by the crowd
I felt he found my letter
and read each one out loud
I prayed that he would finish
but he just kept right on
Struming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
killing me softy with his song
killing me softly with his song
telling my whole life
with his words
killing me softly with his song

he sang as if he knew me
In all my dark despair
and then he looked right through me
as if i wasn't there
and he kept on singing
singing clear and strong

Struming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
killing me softy with his song
killing me softly with his song
telling my whole life
with his words
killing me softly with his song

Struming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
killing me softy with his song
killing me softly with his song
telling my whole life
with his words
killing me (softly)

He was strumming my pain
Yeah he was seing my life
Killing me softly with his song
Killing em softly with his song
telling my whole life with his words
killing me softly with his song

[KnightErrantJR]

Well, they "dialed back" the save or die effects, but they didn't completely eliminate them, and the 20th level capstone abilities are kind of there to make sure you want to take all 20 levels of a class.

I kind of like that a bard can strike a perfect cord that can stop someone's heart . . . it makes the 20th level bard a legendary thing just like an archmage or a warrior that can kill a giant with his bare hands.

[tasslehoff220]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Well, they "dialed back" the save or die effects, but they didn't completely eliminate them, and the 20th level capstone abilities are kind of there to make sure you want to take all 20 levels of a class.

I kind of like that a bard can strike a perfect cord that can stop someone's heart . . . it makes the 20th level bard a legendary thing just like an archmage or a warrior that can kill a giant with his bare hands.

Actually, I agree. I think its really cool. I do understand the 20th level capstone thing too. That part of my post was more meant as musings. Maybe I should have left that out so as not to confuse my actual complaint.

The effect on the successful save is far too powerful though. It should be will negates (similar to how the rogue's ability is fort negates). Stunning for 1d4 rounds at a range with no save or spell resistance is insanely powerful to the point that it should not be an ability at all but making it the effect of a successful save is just dumb. As I said before, this ability would define every encounter which was not immune to the effect.

[Kalyth]

tasslehoff220 wrote:

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Well, they "dialed back" the save or die effects, but they didn't completely eliminate them, and the 20th level capstone abilities are kind of there to make sure you want to take all 20 levels of a class.

I kind of like that a bard can strike a perfect cord that can stop someone's heart . . . it makes the 20th level bard a legendary thing just like an archmage or a warrior that can kill a giant with his bare hands.

Actually, I agree. I think its really cool. I do understand the 20th level capstone thing too. That part of my post was more meant as musings. Maybe I should have left that out so as not to confuse my actual complaint.

The effect on the successful save is far too powerful though. It should be will negates (similar to how the rogue's ability is fort negates). Stunning for 1d4 rounds at a range with no save or spell resistance is insanely powerful to the point that it should not be an ability at all but making it the effect of a successful save is just dumb. As I said before, this ability would define every encounter which was not immune to the effect.

My issues with the ability are pretty much the same two most that have been mentioned.

1) Basically the Song is a Unresistable Stun with a chance to Kill.

2) It can be used 20+ times per day.

[JoelF847]

Maybe change the effect if you save to be dazed for 1 round? And also add a clause that states that if you succeed on your save vs. the Song of Death, you are immune to the effects of subsequent uses of Song of Death from the same bard for 24 hours?

[tasslehoff220]

JoelF847 wrote:

Maybe change the effect if you save to be dazed for 1 round? And also add a clause that states that if you succeed on your save vs. the Song of Death, you are immune to the effects of subsequent uses of Song of Death from the same bard for 24 hours?

The dazed for 1 round would be an improvement but I really think it should just be will negates. As for immunity to subsequent uses, I think that clause already exists. There is still the problem or near infinite uses of this death effect.

Something else which is less of a problem is that any encounter against a 20+ level fighter would be much more easily defeated and likely in the first round every time with a 20+ level bard. Not the major problem as there are ways around this but a speculatory problem.

[Asturysk]

Nah, this is pure fun for the player who chooses to stick with pure-class bard (and honestly, how many players actually do that?) The ability is actually really close to the Divine Prankster's Killing Joke ability, but allowing for any type of Performance rather than just comedy. I like the way it's written, and most high Fort targets of this ability aren't any more endangered by this effect than they would be by an Irresistible Dance spell or a Power Word Stun.