I am still new to being the DM so I am looking for advice on being a better one. This is my question: Can a PC multiclass into becoming a Barbarian after starting as a Sorcerer at 1st level?
My thinking is that a PC is a Barbarian more as a cultural aspect than a class per se. I can see a Barbarian realizing his magical potential after some dramatic encounter during the course of his adventuring. But to begin as a Sorcerer then become a Barbarian seems a little hard to choke down.
Please let me know your thoughts on the subject. While I am at it, if this is in the wrong place let me know that too. I thank you all for taking time to read this thread. Have a long and happy life.
Rules wise there is no prohibition going either way. Flavor wise... I don't see a problem with it. Sorcerers are by no means a civilized magic slinger, they are more the seat of your pants kind of guys and I can see them switching over to Barbarian.
Also not all "barbarians" need to be from the wilderness. A barbarian could be a street thug, one who has never attempted any academic study but has learned to survive by his own abilities. Also not all cultural "barbarians" need to have ranks in the class barbarian. Warrior, ranger, fighter, druid, or any number of other class could be flavored for an individual from a barbaric culture.
I understand that there is no rule preventing it, I just have a little problem with the concept of one PC taking one class then later multiclassing as a Barbarian which I see as a racial or cultural aspect and not so much as a class you can take levels in.
I think it might stretch the imagination for a concept like Wizard 5/Barbarian 3, or some such combination.
As I have tried to express, this is just my opinion. However, I wanted to hear other opinions about it. Thanks for your comments.
I understand that there is no rule preventing it, I just have a little problem with the concept of one PC taking one class then later multiclassing as a Barbarian which I see as a racial or cultural aspect and not so much as a class you can take levels in.
I think it might stretch the imagination for a concept like Wizard 5/Barbarian 3, or some such combination.
As I have tried to express, this is just my opinion. However, I wanted to hear other opinions about it. Thanks for your comments.
I can see your point, but I can also see how it might happen. Perhaps the Sorcerer had something happen to him that made him very, very angry and has learned to channel his inner rage into physical instead of magical form. Sort of like a spell-casting Incredible Hulk. Sorcerer smash!
Or perhaps a sorcerer had something that drove him from city life out into the wilds. Maybe amnesia (magical or otherwise) was involved, and he started a new life in a nomadic tribe. When he finally awoke from this amnesia, he finds that he's been training in the physical arts (barbarian-style) but now can remember how to be a sorcerer too.
It's fantasy. Anything is possible. :)
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It's fantasy. Anything is possible. :)
Quick example: Lord Theodore Monsey(Aristocrat 9/Barbarian 2), right and proper "I say!" gentleman of noble lineage decided, after four decades of genteel living, to see how the other side lived and went on walkabout. Unfortunately he mistakenly picked one of the most hostile landscapes on the planet. He came back three years later and a bit more boisterous. His memoirs are selling well.
That said, I kind of share the "Barbarian has cultural ties" bias, though I recognize the ways they can be divorced.
I understand that there is no rule preventing it, I just have a little problem with the concept of one PC taking one class then later multiclassing as a Barbarian which I see as a racial or cultural aspect and not so much as a class you can take levels in.
I think it might stretch the imagination for a concept like Wizard 5/Barbarian 3, or some such combination.
As I have tried to express, this is just my opinion. However, I wanted to hear other opinions about it. Thanks for your comments.
Hey, just a little something you want to consider.
In norse culture, the act of entering a beserk frenzy as a semi-mysticial/religious act.
Providing that the character has a background which places him as part of a culture with includes 'barbarian' and his background suits it, i would let him do it.
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Sure.
There's an NPC in my campaign who is a second level barbarian. He was originally a cart driver for a caravan, but was captured by orc slavers. They tortured him for their amusement, but he kept fighting back, and so they started to find him funny and basically kept him alive and pitted him against fire beetles, giant rats and kobolds they caught to amuse themselves. His barbarian levels aren't a result of the culture he was raised in (Renaissance Italy equivalent), but rather the months of harsh treatment that has left him seething with rage.
From a mechanical point of view, a barbarian is just an angry guy who runs fast. If the play can come up with a plausible reason why he might get angrier and run faster, then why not?
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I actually have a hard time getting around a sorcerer suddenly learning to use any martial weapon and light/medium armor. The rage thing is something that occurs naturally, without need of training.
My group has for some time required different levels of training for different classes, most of which cost money. A fighter can become a barbarian no problem. But to be a wizard he has to go to school.
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I actually have a hard time getting around a sorcerer suddenly learning to use any martial weapon and light/medium armor. The rage thing is something that occurs naturally, without need of training.
My group has for some time required different levels of training for different classes, most of which cost money. A fighter can become a barbarian no problem. But to be a wizard he has to go to school.
What if he's already gone to school?
If I design a character who has been to "eldritch knight school", and his final task before graduating is to complete an adventure without using any magic, would you be ok with me starting off as Fighter 1, then multi-classing into wizard?
Also, do you apply similar restrictions to fighters? How long do you think it takes to become proficient with all martial weapons, all armour and all shields?
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If I design a character who has been to "eldritch knight school", and his final task before graduating is to complete an adventure without using any magic, would you be ok with me starting off as Fighter 1, then multi-classing into wizard?Also, do you apply similar restrictions to fighters? How long do you think it takes to become proficient with all martial weapons, all armour and all shields?
I usually start games at level 1, so this issue rarely comes up, but the same rule would apply. If you design a character, and want them to have already "gone to school" you would have to pay for that out of your starting wealth.
Yes, I apply restrictions to all classes in varying degrees.
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I understand that there is no rule preventing it, I just have a little problem with the concept of one PC taking one class then later multiclassing as a Barbarian which I see as a racial or cultural aspect and not so much as a class you can take levels in.
I think it might stretch the imagination for a concept like Wizard 5/Barbarian 3, or some such combination.
As I have tried to express, this is just my opinion. However, I wanted to hear other opinions about it. Thanks for your comments.
If you see barbarian as a racial or cultural concept (which is a perfectly valid point of view) then you might be better off removing the barbarian class, or doing what they do in Rokugan polite society and re-naming it berserker.
To look at it another way, if I want to play someone who comes from a barbaric culture, would you force me to take my first level in barbarian, or would you allow me to play a savage sorcerer, uncivilised ranger or the like?
The main problem I have with barbarian 1 / wizard 1 is actually the illiteracy requierment of the barbarian (but I have a problem with that class feature anyway).
"Yes, I may be a barbarian, but I have also picked up a smattering of magical knowledge, along with this big book which I prepare spells from. Pretty amazing given that yesterday I couldn't read at all."
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If I design a character who has been to "eldritch knight school", and his final task before graduating is to complete an adventure without using any magic, would you be ok with me starting off as Fighter 1, then multi-classing into wizard?Also, do you apply similar restrictions to fighters? How long do you think it takes to become proficient with all martial weapons, all armour and all shields?
I usually start games at level 1, so this issue rarely comes up, but the same rule would apply. If you design a character, and want them to have already "gone to school" you would have to pay for that out of your starting wealth.
Yes, I apply restrictions to all classes in varying degrees.
I was assuming we were talking about 1st level as well. [What follows looks a bit snarky on reading it; apologies if it reads like that to you or anyone else, its not intended to be!)
Would you go through my backstory, cost out everything in it and adjust my starting gold accordingly? (Note that my character is gaining no mechanical benefit from this; rather I am coming up with a flavour reason to justify something that per the RAW I am perfectly able to do "just because".)
Would you allow me to start the game in debt, or would anything I could not afford to pay for out of my starting gold simply be expurgated from my character's history?
For instance, if I came up with the idea of "my character grew up in Hardby, but once visited Greyhawk and has wanted to live there ever since" would you calculate the cost of a return trip between the two cities and dock my starting gold accordingly?
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I was assuming we were talking about 1st level as well. [What follows looks a bit snarky on reading it; apologies if it reads like that to you or anyone else, its not intended to be!)Would you go through my backstory, cost out everything in it and adjust my starting gold accordingly? (Note that my character is gaining no mechanical benefit from this; rather I am coming up with a flavour reason to justify something that per the RAW I am perfectly able to do "just because".)
Would you allow me to start the game in debt, or would anything I could not afford to pay for out of my starting gold simply be expurgated from my character's history?
For instance, if I came up with the idea of "my character grew up in Hardby, but once visited Greyhawk and has wanted to live there ever since" would you calculate the cost of a return trip between the two cities and dock my starting gold accordingly?
To your stated backstory, no I wouldn't. But if you said you "went to Greyhawk and bought a house there" then I would, because you can actually benefit from a house. You also benefit from multiclassing, and to overcome the logical conundrum of multiclassing my group prefers to apply one rule to all characters. It's a solution to a gap my group perceives in the RAW.
I should also point out that the types of schools are generic: military academy, arcane college, seminary. If you train at one, for a given time, that qualifies you for ANY class that requires that training.
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I should also point out that the types of schools are generic: military academy, arcane college, seminary. If you train at one, for a given time, that qualifies you for ANY class that requires that training.
Right, I get where you are coming from now. Thanks.
Presumably then, if I want to play an eldrich knight I get the training in fighter or wizard "free" when I start at 1st level, but when I want to multi-class into the other one I have to go to school and spend time and money.
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I should also point out that the types of schools are generic: military academy, arcane college, seminary. If you train at one, for a given time, that qualifies you for ANY class that requires that training.Right, I get where you are coming from now. Thanks.
Presumably then, if I want to play an eldrich knight I get the training in fighter or wizard "free" when I start at 1st level, but when I want to multi-class into the other one I have to go to school and spend time and money.
Yup. Let's say you start as fighter. To multiclass as wizard you pay (time and money) to go to a college. When it comes time to be an eldritch knight, you've already done warrior and arcane training, so you are fine.
Now, if you had gone to a Bard College for arcane training, you might need to do some more before becoming an eldritch knight.
From a mechanical point of view, a barbarian is just an angry guy who runs fast. If the play can come up with a plausible reason why he might get angrier and run faster, then why not?
Hehehe :D
I should also point out that the types of schools are generic: military academy, arcane college, seminary. If you train at one, for a given time, that qualifies you for ANY class that requires that training.Right, I get where you are coming from now. Thanks.
Presumably then, if I want to play an eldrich knight I get the training in fighter or wizard "free" when I start at 1st level, but when I want to multi-class into the other one I have to go to school and spend time and money.
Yup. Let's say you start as fighter. To multiclass as wizard you pay (time and money) to go to a college. When it comes time to be an eldritch knight, you've already done warrior and arcane training, so you are fine.
Now, if you had gone to a Bard College for arcane training, you might need to do some more before becoming an eldritch knight.
What about a class like duskblade?
The name "Barbarian" is not the best choice, because it's more than just an occupation. Think of it as "berserker" instead, or whatever fits the theme of a warrior who flies into a frenzy.
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What about a class like duskblade?I should also point out that the types of schools are generic: military academy, arcane college, seminary. If you train at one, for a given time, that qualifies you for ANY class that requires that training.Right, I get where you are coming from now. Thanks.
Presumably then, if I want to play an eldrich knight I get the training in fighter or wizard "free" when I start at 1st level, but when I want to multi-class into the other one I have to go to school and spend time and money.
Yup. Let's say you start as fighter. To multiclass as wizard you pay (time and money) to go to a college. When it comes time to be an eldritch knight, you've already done warrior and arcane training, so you are fine.
Now, if you had gone to a Bard College for arcane training, you might need to do some more before becoming an eldritch knight.
Duskblade would require the same amount of martial training as a fighter, but not as much arcane training as a wizard.
It depends on whether you emphasize the cultural aspect or the rage ability. Think of him as : Mister Furious.
I basically roleplay barbarians as berserkers instead of actually barbarians. I mean, not all historical barbarians use their barbarian rage to wreak havoc.
The Mongols, with their superb tactics, don't really fit into the "mad foam rager" archetype that the barbarian leans towards. I see the Mongols more as rangers than actual barbarians, even though they do qualify as cultural barbarians.
About illiteracy, no class except wizards has to be literate (even wizards could have picture spell books I guess). I have a ranger/fighter/beastmaster hobgoblin in a game and the character is illiterate. None of those classes require it, but I felt it fit the character concept I had of a brash loud mouth that didn't really know anything.
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I would allow it so long as a sufficient justification (story) is produced by the player. I would allow most ANY variation which is backed up by a story so long as game balance isn't effected.... but then I am a player. One exapmple of similar justification I tried to slip past my DM follows (and this one breaks rules, a good cleric casting a spell with an evil descriptor):
Good elven cleric of Sehanine Moonbow w/ the Death & Travel domains being allowed to cast all divine necro spells regardless of alignment descriptor. I attempted to justify this by claiming , "he suffers the nightmares of his people so they might recall only their pleasent memories during reverie. This great service to his people leaves him with a different outlook on life than his fellow elves (NG) and as a reward for this great service, his goddess allows him to bargain with the souls of the deceased, the services of the dead's remains in exchange for the safe passage of their souls to the plane of their patron diety". I don't immediately see any game balance issues (although I may be missing one) and I feel it's fairly well explained, so I would see why anyone would take issue with it but I am sure they're soon to follow.... and I can't wait to hear my DM sigh loudly while shaking his head.
If you have the 3rd edition DMG, might I suggest just having the character go with the apprentice rules. It would solve the problem nicely.
Now we get into the mechanical issues of 3.5.
Since you can only have one class at first level it's extremely hard to justify a switch from level 1 to level 2.
It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. If I were to want a character who was a barbaric sorcerer, as you described, I have to start with one class. Eventually, I can multi class into another class once I have the levels to do so.
Don't think of classes as strict terms. A barbarian can be many, many things. Even though it's called a barbarian, it's just a name. Make up your own fluff for it and see past the class: See the whole character.
From a mechanical point of view, a barbarian is just an angry guy who runs fast. If the play can come up with a plausible reason why he might get angrier and run faster, then why not?
I happily allowed a paladin/barbarian once, when the player explained he wanted the "barbarian" to represent a lawful school of swordsmen who go into a trance when they fight. Turned out to be a great character.
With a good explanation almost anything should be possible. :)
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From a mechanical point of view, a barbarian is just an angry guy who runs fast. If the play can come up with a plausible reason why he might get angrier and run faster, then why not?I happily allowed a paladin/barbarian once, when the player explained he wanted the "barbarian" to represent a lawful school of swordsmen who go into a trance when they fight. Turned out to be a great character.
So true, Kirth. I wish more people used the open customization option presented in the PHB. It literally says "be creative, swap things out".
Of course, if WotC pointed that out, then they couldn't sell you all the splatbooks, since you can imagine just about anything you want using the core rules only.
Now we get into the mechanical issues of 3.5.
Since you can only have one class at first level it's extremely hard to justify a switch from level 1 to level 2.
It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. If I were to want a character who was a barbaric sorcerer, as you described, I have to start with one class. Eventually, I can multi class into another class once I have the levels to do so.
That's the crux of the issue, as I see it. The player clearly wants to be a "barbarous sorcerer." However, because of the way D&D mechanics worked, he was forced to pick just one class at 1st level. In his mind, he's probably a "barbarous sorcerer" the whole time, even though his character sheet only says "sorcerer" at 1st level. I recommend that you don't force the mechanical limitations of D&D into some sort of flavorful limitation of the PC.
WHEW!!!! I was not expecting such a large and varied response. However, with that being said, I wish to thank everyone who responded. There were many good and interesting points brought up.
I am not only a DM but also a player, and a fanatic about a back story. If you can give me a good reason why you want to do something I will more than likely let you just to see what happens. An example was in one game letting in a Half-Dragon Fighter. The group went into Maure Castle and managed to kick butt. I had a hard time creating challenges.
So that prompted me to ask my question here. Thanks again for the responses.
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I really don't see the cultural issue. A PC could come from a barbarian style culture where he studied with the medicine man. That wouldn't change his history and familiarity with that group. However I do see the problem with him suddenly gaining the weapon/armor proficencies, but the same could be said for a Wizard multiclassing into fighter.
There are many historical anecdotes of "civilized" people joining "primitive" cultures and fitting right in with the "primitives." Even if you see the Bbn class as a cultural thing more than its mechanical explanation (which is a light-armored berserker), you should be able to justify a "civilized" character "going native" and taking barbarian levels. If it helps, roleplay it that he's making some sort of sacred vow to a tribe, or performing a ritual with the "primitive" community's spiritual leader to "unleash the raging spirit within him," or something like that.
And now my quotes key is broken.
Duskblade would require the same amount of martial training as a fighter, but not as much arcane training as a wizard.
That doesn't sound right: The fighter undergoes more martial training than a duskblade, what with the weapon training, armour training, and bonus feats.
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That doesn't sound right: The fighter undergoes more martial training than a duskblade, what with the weapon training, armour training, and bonus feats.Duskblade would require the same amount of martial training as a fighter, but not as much arcane training as a wizard.
Thanks for catching that. I didn't have my campaign documents in front of me. Let's assume that the training falls into 4 levels (0=no training, 4=most training).
The duskblade would be around Warrior (3), Arcane (2). It's not one of the classes currently in our campaign, so I'm winging it here.
I am humbled and honored that Mr. Reynolds would see fit to comment about my question. Thank you for your suggestion Sir. I will discuss all the possibilities with my players. Thank you all for your input.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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I'm not the history buff that some gamers are. Actually, I love history, but a lot of my ability to learn it was replaced with 'restaurant manager' at an early age.
Anyhoo, forgive any technical inaccuracies, but I sure think of William Wallace as a guy who grew up not a barbarian, but then potentially learned those skills later. Maybe Davy Crocket. Maybe Genghis Khan, if you consider him to have his start as a ranger or expert before his family was abandoned.
Of course, mechanically, barbarian 1 is the way to go, followed by a magical selfdiscovery at level 2. But in any case, I can't see telling a player he can't have the classes he wants so long as his story makes him happy and fits into the campaign.
Although I'll rule out someone's third prestige class as an immediate action. : }
I am humbled and honored that Mr. Reynolds would see fit to comment about my question.
Get used to it: Paizonians hang out here all the time to answer questions or just to chat. And they never seem to expect us to feel humbled by that fact.
Get used to it: Paizonians hang out here all the time to answer questions or just to chat. And they never seem to expect us to feel humbled by that fact.
Though from time to time we request pie.
Get used to it: Paizonians hang out here all the time to answer questions or just to chat. And they never seem to expect us to feel humbled by that fact.Though from time to time we request pie.
I have no idea what you're hinting at!
;-P
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While my instinct is to say "no" to a lot of things, I long ago realized the goal of any game a DM runs should be fun. Keeping that in mind, I'd suggest you look for a way to link the two thematically if possible.
- Perhaps the player is from a group of people with a cursed past. Having magic in their blood (Sorcerer) comes with a curse that forces them to sometimes lose control of themselves in battle and rage (Barbarian).
- Perhaps the Sorcerer, in seeking to expand his link with his "bloodline" (is it Fiendish? Celestial? Other?) lost control and tapped into a latent, tribal aspect of himself...
- Perhaps the Barbarian, while passing through a tribal Rite of Passage, unlocked an inner door that manifested sorcerous talents....
- Perhaps the player is from a group of people with a cursed past. Having magic in their blood (Sorcerer) comes with a curse that forces them to sometimes lose control of themselves in battle and rage (Barbarian).
BTW long ago Monte did a prestige class for Dragon called the "rage mage," which I think was intended for barbarian/sorcerer multiclass characters. Might be worth looking up.
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- Perhaps the player is from a group of people with a cursed past. Having magic in their blood (Sorcerer) comes with a curse that forces them to sometimes lose control of themselves in battle and rage (Barbarian).BTW long ago Monte did a prestige class for Dragon called the "rage mage," which I think was intended for barbarian/sorcerer multiclass characters. Might be worth looking up.
There is a Rage Mage prestige class in Complete Arcanne too.
