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This came up with my new PbP:
It still really matters what order you create/level your character (not as much as when Int increases were the bane of every DMs existence).
For example, if you take a point buy and apply racial modifiers BEFORE buying your ability scores, you can get better scores than if you had done so afterwards.
For example, Snek the Half-Orc:
1. Modifiers then Point Buy
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
2. Modifier after Point Buy (the correct way)
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
It's cheaper with method 1 for Snek to raise his Charisma to 14 than it is with method 2. Method one costs 7 points, whereas method 2 costs 10 points, as he must raise it to 16, then lower it to 14 with the modifier.
The reverse is true, raising high abilities becomes more expensive in method 1. Snek can also raise his Strength to 14 at the expense of 3 points in method 1, whereas in method 2 it costs him 2 points.
The point is that a half-orc should be able to get a 20 Str, and in method 1 that would cost 26 points if you do the incorrect way correctly.
I think Chapter 2 should make it absolutely clear that the order presented there is the order to create/level a character, and not anything else. This would also affect any character ability based on ability score prerequisites, such as feats and spells.
Page 5 mentions the proper way to do things, but I still think page 4 should explicitly say to follow the steps in order.
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Actually, I think this needs to be addressed in the point buy rules. That is the only stat generating method affected. Unless you have examples where the order of character creations causes other anomalies, this appears to be entirely an issue with point buy.
The other main issue is with Prestige Classes and feats that require prerequisites. If someone picked a feat before picking a class, it might allow them to qualify for a class early. Since you pick skills first before feats (according to Chapter 2 numbering) you can choose skills, then pick a feat that might have a skill rank prerequisite. A person who did this the wrong way might pick feats first, not realizing they would qualify for a feat they want if they picked skills first. Same thing goes for ability score prerequisites.
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You are doing things the right way though, if someone did not follow the order, they might be disappointed:
Imagine a Fighter with Str 12. At 4th level, they try to take Power Attack and don't have the Strength prerequisite, not knowing for sure if they get their Ability Score increase first or not they give up and pick something else.
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You are doing things the right way though, if someone did not follow the order, they might be disappointed:
Imagine a Fighter with Str 12. At 4th level, they try to take Power Attack and don't have the Strength prerequisite, not knowing for sure if they get their Ability Score increase first or not they give up and pick something else.
If I am reading you right, you are looking for a step by step First, then etc type of list for creation and another for leveling up. I concur. I would really like to see such a flowchart, especially if it also reminds players to recalculate their skills/combat modifiers/initiative for updated stats. I have seen dozens of PCs that have miscalculated combat abilities that have gotten them killed because they forgot to increase to hit and damage after adding STR or realizing 2 levels later that some combats may have gone another way if they had remembered their initiative bonus and updated their CRS.
On the flip side, every been in that argument with new players who recalculate all their hit points when their CON goes up and argue it doesn't SAY it ISN"T retroactive and you are stuck paging through your books trying to find the rule you know is there somewhere, if it even is. Grrrrrrr. There are a lot of places in the leveling rules that should be laid out more clearly for the less experienced players and GMs.
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I agree that a nice flowchart or step-by-step process for creating characters and for leveling characters would be a very good idea. Keep in mind that a lot of people who are play testing this are already pretty familiar with 3.5 and the rule set and how it should flow. This isn't true of everyone and Pathfinder is going to be geared for people who are both experienced with the system and completely new to it.
It is possible for someone who is totally new to playing a d20 game to pick up the book and play it with friends who are also new. I've seen it happen more than once. I'm fairly well known at my FLGS as someone you can go to for help when you're new to most of the games they sell, so I've been in the position of explaining rules fairly often. I wouldn't say I'm a walking index, but I am a good teacher.
With that in mind, a good set of basic instructions would be extremely useful for people who are playing this for the first time and who may not have someone experienced there to help them figure it out. More than one gamer has left a game behind because they couldn't interpret the rules.
Arovyn
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For example, if you take a point buy and apply racial modifiers BEFORE buying your ability scores, you can get better scores than if you had done so afterwards.Pathfinder Beta, page 5, first paragraph, last sentence: "Apply racial modifiers after the scores are generated - see the Races chapter for more details."
I commented on as much in my OP. However, the fact it is mentioned there, and not in the "here are the steps to making a character" section is a bit awkward. I consider it a presentation issue in this specific regard.
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Keep in mind that a lot of people who are play testing this are already pretty familiar with 3.5 and the rule set and how it should flow. This isn't true of everyone and Pathfinder is going to be geared for people who are both experienced with the system and completely new to it.
I haven't RPGed since 2nd Ed. D&D. And I'll likely be the DM for any group I can manage to muster way out in the middle of nowhere... So....for clarification ... are Ability Modifiers calculated before or after Racial Modifiers are applied? Regardless of the method used to generate attributes.
Example: If I have an elf who rolled a 17 for INT, does he get a +3 ability modifier based on the 17, or +4 ability modifier based on the racially adjusted INT of 19?