Recently, I was involved in the delicate operation of introducing my girlfriend to the RPG hobby. Some of you may be less bashful than I, but this has always been a really awkward situation for me, I feel like a complete nerd when it comes to explaining this stuff for the first time. But enough about my personal life, let's generalize my experience to any newcomer to the Pathfinder RPG.
The central mechanic of D20 is really simple, and intuitive. The Ability system, well... *I* know why we have a 3-18 ability score, *I* know that in 3rd edition some rock solid designers co-opted the FUDGE/Silhouette zero average system (a great move) and laid it on top of the old fashioned 3d6 numbers that they just couldn't get rid of. *I* know why WotC would have been out of their mind to change this "golden cow." *She* doesn't know these things, and shouldn't be bothered with history lessons when she's making her first character.
And Pathfinder can't get rid of it either. For the above reasons.
The new skill system really helps to reduce the explanation needed for new players when it comes to skills. The ability score system consists of 1) a "score" which doesn't actually get used for anything except a few corner cases (the new negative HP rule, and advancing abilities every four levels) 2) the bonus, which is great and shouldn't change, and 3) the point cost of the ability score during character creation.
This is a roadblock for first time players, not because the math is difficult per se, but simply because abilities are so important in the game, and having to refer to tables and the presence of numbers that don't actually mean anything. Since my girlfriend is a math expert, I was reduced to explaining the vestigial nature of ability scores and offering the (divide by 2 round down minus 5) rule.
I can't help but dream of how much more intuitive it would be without Ability Scores, just bonuses. I know all the reasons this is impossible, but is there some way we could make room for an alternate option, in much the same way that HP generation has gradually evolved into a reasonable mechanic despite all the nostalgic baggage? A "modern" system that allows us to deal with bonuses in point purchase directly, whilst leaving an untouched "classic" mechanic in place for use by old-schoolers such as myself.
I have a few suggestions, but I would like to hear the opinion of the community before voicing them. New players are going to be important to Pathfinder RPG, and if there's a solution that will make the first chapter one or two steps easier without changing the behavior of the system, I'd love to see it.
*bump*
*She* doesn't know these things, and shouldn't be bothered with history lessons when she's making her first character.
My suggestion is to avoid the history lesson and give her the simple math. For better or worse '3d6' based stats are around for a while to come. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing this go away but... not in this edition. First, change all the spells and SAs, SUs, SLAs, and magic items that affect abilities and replace them with fixed bonuses... so a belt of collosal strength would give +1 to all melee attacks and damage... simple mechanisms that don't require mid-game calculations.
Since I don't even see a move to somthing like this I think the idea of getting rid of 3-18 is way too far out there.
Don't forget that STR determines the maximum weight of stuff you can carry, a figure not related to bonuses/penalties. I think stats are fine--they give you a snapshot of a character's strengths and weaknesses.
Don't forget that STR determines the maximum weight of stuff you can carry, a figure not related to bonuses/penalties. I think stats are fine--they give you a snapshot of a character's strengths and weaknesses.
I had to read the original post twice to 'get it', the post is quite confusing but the idea is simple. He is not talking about eliminating stats, instead he wants to replace the existing stats with a simpler system with no abstraction. So instead of saying 18 = +4 your stat would be +4. Base stats would range from -4 to +??
Whereas I agree with the OP that in practice it is the bonuses that matter and therefore mathemtatically we could eliminate the stats (things like ability drain or encumberance could be rounded to the nearest bonus), I don't think this should be done. It is counterintuitive to have negative stats. How would it feel to say that your Intelligence is -3? It would be counterintuitive to say the least.
What is completely unnecessary, though, is the formula equating 2 points of an ability score to only 1 point of ability modifier. It would be better to have standard stats ranging from 6 to 14, where the mean is 10 (providing a +0 bonus), 9 provides a -1 penalty, 8 a minus 2 penalty, 11 provides a +1 bonus, 12 a +2 bonus, etcetera. Pathfinder, however, at least in its first edition, cannot impement anything like this, of course, as ability scores are a sacred cow for many.
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What is completely unnecessary, though, is the formula equating 2 points of an ability score to only 1 point of ability modifier. It would be better to have standard stats ranging from 6 to 14, where the mean is 10 (providing a +0 bonus), 9 provides a -1 penalty, 8 a minus 2 penalty, 11 provides a +1 bonus, 12 a +2 bonus, etcetera. Pathfinder, however, at least in its first edition, cannot impement anything like this, of course, as ability scores are a sacred cow for many.
Unfortunately, implementing that idea would require editing of nearly every aspect of the game to change every bonus or penalty from the current to the new standard. It would also magnify the power of said bonus/penalties as there would be no middle ground. Either you lose/gain a point of bonus or nothing changes, as opposed to the current system of two points before you lose/gain a bonus point.
This would also require a notation on converting 3.5 material, and while it would be fairly simple to convert on paper, many of us and many new players would not want to deal with the hassle of rewriting stat blocks and spells and items. That is the biggest hurdle, as PRPG is trying to allow you to use 3.5/3.0 material with a minimum of work.
Plus, I like seeing 17 and 18 on my character sheet. :-P
I had to read the original post twice to 'get it', the post is quite confusing but the idea is simple. He is not talking about eliminating stats, instead he wants to replace the existing stats with a simpler system with no abstraction. So instead of saying 18 = +4 your stat would be +4. Base stats would range from -4 to +??
Yeah, sorry. I was trying to be a little less confrontational than many of the recent posts I've seen. My point may have been obfuscated by my reluctance to phrase my quandary as: "Ability scores are an affront to god, anyone who disagrees is ruining this game!"
Don't forget that STR determines the maximum weight of stuff you can carry, a figure not related to bonuses/penalties. I think stats are fine--they give you a snapshot of a character's strengths and weaknesses.
This is quite a good point, as is Eric Meepo's. Please note that in my OP that I'm not in favor of any change to the status quo, and I completely understand the reasons things are the way they are now!
Roman: Maybe it's the other games I play, but the Zero-average rating is actually more intuitive to me than a 3 to 18+ scale. Zero average, negative numbers bad, positive numbers good. I also have a comparatively easy time explaining this to new players, when set against the 3 to 18+ value.
If people want to see the traditional 3 to 18+ numbers on their sheet, all I can say is that I don't advocate taking them away or changing them at all, nor do I wish to change the rules behind them. Is there a way to make a "just the bonus" approach play nice with the other rules? I just want to make things easier on the newbs... "If you have a problem with that, you are ruining this game. You should kill yourself with a rusty tire-iron." :)
Here's my first draft of a compromise, that could actually be run alongside the classic ability score:
Every fourth level you get a half-point to add to any Ability bonus. Effects that alter your ability scores are measured in half-points, or the GM can halve the effect and apply it to your bonus (I prefer the former).
There are so many ways to generate ability scores for characters, that are not even mentioned, I say that it should be made clean right at the beginning with a simple statement. "The methods provided below are only the popular methods used for generate ability scores, and many other methods does exist.", or something similar. My English is not very good, but you should get the idea.
Also add before describing the 6 ability scores, the simple formula for converting ability scores into modifiers, to help new players to the gave who are more mathematically inclined.
Also add before describing the 6 ability scores, the simple formula for converting ability scores into modifiers, to help new players to the gave who are more mathematically inclined.
Score divided by 2, rounded down, minus 5.
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easy way to do this
do not explain
just ask them to roll 3d6 or 4d6 and take the lesser, or just to adjudicate numbers...
what you need to explain is:
10 is avarage
below that you are lacking in that area
above you are better than avarage
3 is the lowest a human baing can have
18 is the max of human capabilities...
now when she/he put the score jsut tell her the mods... and stop trying her to do the math... i don't do the math (i dida program that did it for me, but that is another issue) is just know it by memory... its easy
10-11 0
12-13 1
14-15 2
16-17 3
18 4
penalties are the saim just in inverse order...
i am an RPG nerd but one must understand that while the players need to know howto use their character... the first time they play they DON'T NEED to KNOW Everything
even if they changeor not the system... just look for different ways to explain things or just give the numbers tot hem (i have one player who has played with me for many years and every time he does a xcharacetr he ask the mods, he is not a fool, he is just lazy enough to learn, or just to calculate it himself)
aside of that... a max of 14 is not good... its more difficult to roll dices for that as a max :P and 2d6+2 is not fun