First off I would like to say that I love Paizo and I love Paizo products
Ive played and read D&D since I was 9 years old and over the past 20 years of playing I absofreakinglutly loved Dungeon and am really impressed with the new Pathfinder APs
I will continue to support Paizo and its products as long as you guys continue to put out pure printed DMing awsomeness in the form of the APs
however, I have one very very minor complaint
Ive seen it throughout the years in Dungeon and now I see it in the beautiful Pathfinders as well
the small Typos, Errors and Dis-Continuity - a few examples if I may
ex.1 Lymas Smeed is listed as being in the employ of both Zincher and Boss Croat. Vancaskerkin mentions to the PCs that Lymas might work for Zincher (but maybe he doesn't know what he is talking about) The real error comes in the colored box description text for the home. The store room A7 indicates that Lymas works for Zincher whereas the text on the next page reveals that Lymas works for Boss Croat. So who does he work for? Later the cooperation between Boss Croat and Zincher in the raid on the Gold Goblin indicates that Lymas in fact worked for Croat.
ex.2 the turning a profit section talks about raising the profitability rating of the Gold Goblin and it scales from -4 to 4, it states that it starts at -1 and then says "in order to raise it to 5 or above" ??? isnt the scale from -4 to 4, I assume it meant to say "1 or above"
ex.3 the Roach Swarm in the Boneyard ambush isn't given a location on the map
I've occasionally see mistakes like the broken Kazmojen stats or the overpowered unhallow in the temple of Blipdoolploop in the SCAP from Dungeon
there are a million typed words and letters that are correct and perfect . These few errors are almost always very minor and only slightly irritating. But...
can I help catch them before you go to print? I don't know what kind of editing to printing schedule you guys have to work under but I would GLADLY and FREELY be willing to read and flag typos and stat errors and such and get it back to you guys on the same day.
Please! can I help? they bother me that much, I would gladly and happily be willing to work as a Paizo AP typo slave
Creative Director
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While I do appreciate the eagerness and willingness to pitch in... adding proofers to the process isn't something that we can do, and I'm not sure the additional effort in coordinating out-of-house proofers would be worth the time it took for the increase in accuracy.
The main problem is the same problem that plagued us for the magazines, though, and it's tied to one of our business model's greatest strengths—the monthly schedule. Putting out product on a month-by-month basis and using the subscription model is a huge part of why Paizo is doing so well, but it also imposes a pretty brutal schedule. Certainly we can get in the manuscripts and maps for an adventure months in advance, but when you get down to it we really only have about 30 days per product to get everything whipped into shape from the final draft to the shipping to printer stage.
As a result, work is VERY fast-paced here at Paizo, and being in-house is a huge time-saver; working in the same room as we editors do, it's easy to pass manuscripts back and forth, ask and answer questions, and most importantly stay ahead of things and remain immersed in the world's continuity and styles. Those are things that an out-of-house editor won't have, and furthermore, we'd have to sacrifice a not-insignificant portion of our own work schedules to keep out-of-house editors/proofers in the loop and managed well enough so that their help will be useful. And on top of that, we don't really have the budget to pay for freelance editing (various legal and other restrictions prevent us from going the route of free editors, alas).
So in the end, I do apologize for the errors that pop up now and then in Paizo products, and I can say that we're constantly reviewing the type of errors we make to ensure we don't repeat them too often (or worse, make a habit of them). We've already hired a new editor, and assuming things continue to go well for Paizo, I suspect sometime soon we'll be hiring ANOTHER one or two or twenty, but we just don't have the resources to manage freelance editing at this time.
THAT SAID: Do please keep posting errors and typos you notice in our products. We read these boards quite often, and while the majority of the typos and errors posted on these boards are ones we've already discovered and have assimilated into our process of how not to make the same errors in the future, I do value this kind of feedback.
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Just one addendum, the name 'Lymas Smeed' struck a bad note with me. Since there's currently a 'Limas Sweed' in the real world sports news at the moment, its way too much of a coincidence, unless the real Mr. Sweed is a fan and told someone they could borrow his name. Something else to watch for, please!
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Creative Director
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Just one addendum, the name 'Lymas Smeed' struck a bad note with me. Since there's currently a 'Limas Sweed' in the real world sports news at the moment, its way too much of a coincidence, unless the real Mr. Sweed is a fan and told someone they could borrow his name. Something else to watch for, please!
That's a great example of one of two things:
1) A coincidence.
or
2) An author sneaking in an easter egg that slips by the editors. This one strikes me as a bit more likely, but since no one back here who works on Pathfinder is a big sports fan, we didn't catch it.
In any case, names are easy enough to change when one runs the game.
Just got my copy of Second Darkness, and while I liked some of it (especially the 'Deadwood' feel)... a few things popped up at me just from a quick reading.
1. Lavender Lil...
I know this is just a small thing, but on an NPC who gets a 2-page spread in the Players' Guide, the PCs should sort of know what to expect.
2. Again... moral ambiguity. I don't want to go off on a crusade, but I'm tired of morally ambiguous heroes doing 'what needs to be done' to save the world.
Savage Tide WAAAY did it. Having the players be part-owners of a gambling hall, associating with crime lords, prostitutes, people who keep an imp in a cage and have a fighting pit out the back, who have an intelligent, evil magic item for entertainment... I'm really not interested in this kind of stuff. While I can recognize the plot twists and cool stuff involved (again, the 'Deadwood' feel)... I like that in a TV show where there's a definite good guy and definite (but maybe ambiguous) bad guys. It's not something that I want to roleplay.
It's the Book of Vile Darkness again (and let's please not re-open that festering old sore of an argument)... if someone wants vile (or morally ambiguous) content in the game, let them add it, don't make it a fixture.
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Creative Director
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1) The problems with Lavender Lil arose from a rushed schedule and not enough time to cross check between products. The more detailed version of Lil from the Second Darkness Player's Guide is the preferred version—go with that one.
2) In my 5+ years of experience working on adventures here at Paizo, moral ambiguity is popular. More to the point, adventures that don't assume/force PCs into being good guys are MUCH more popular than ones that assume everyone in the group is righteous and good. And while Riddleport is a pretty nasty place, it's also got its good stuff there. In any event, the adventure path itself doesn't stay in Riddleport; it moves out of there at the 2nd adventure and never really goes back, with the majority of the rest being an "against the drow" plot that works quite well for good guy PCs OR not-so-good guy PCs.
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In any event, the adventure path itself doesn't stay in Riddleport; it moves out of there at the 2nd adventure and never really goes back, with the majority of the rest being an "against the drow" plot that works quite well for good guy PCs OR not-so-good guy PCs.
Is there some way the the AP at least retains the piratey feel of the 1st module? I understand that #2 is a good chance to do so, but what about further on?
I ask because one of my players is specifically playing a pirate sorcerer.
And, just because my party is pretty neat (thanks in part to the creative Paizo folks and their generous background information), I thought I would post them here for anybody who might care to read:
Dominic, human fighter (archer) 2 [Cayden Cailean], former nobleman
Silent, gold dwarf dragon shaman 2 [Torag], former Gas Works healer
Poloo'st!k, darfellan battle sorcerer 2 [Gozreh], pirate
Adraeisil Heavenstar, wood elf divine bard 2 [Shelyn], wandering minstrel
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Creative Director
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Is there some way the the AP at least retains the piratey feel of the 1st module? I understand that #2 is a good chance to do so, but what about further on?
By the third adventure, pirates will more or less be in the past. There's still a fair amount to come in the 2nd adventure though!
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Just one addendum, the name 'Lymas Smeed' struck a bad note with me. Since there's currently a 'Limas Sweed' in the real world sports news at the moment, its way too much of a coincidence, unless the real Mr. Sweed is a fan and told someone they could borrow his name. Something else to watch for, please!It didn't come from Limas Sweed and it wasn't an Easter egg. Truth be told, its genesis actually came from Captain Hook's infamous first mate, Mr. Smee. Lymas does have a nice ring to it that flowed with the name (probably why Mr. Sweed's parents chose it as well). Though I did notice the similarity myself, it is not intended in any way as a reference to the University of Texas football player, nor did I borrow his name. Now why the Zincher gladiator "Ojay Samson" got cut from the adventure, I have no idea.
Funny!! Thanks for the explanation. I know you didn't mean it that way, but I couldn't help make the mental connection. I doubt too many other folks did (except big Steelers fans) so its cool.
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Just got my copy of Second Darkness, and while I liked some of it (especially the 'Deadwood' feel)... a few things popped up at me just from a quick reading.
1. Lavender Lil...** spoiler omitted **
I know this is just a small thing, but on an NPC who gets a 2-page spread in the Players' Guide, the PCs should sort of know what to expect.
2. Again... moral ambiguity. I don't want to go off on a crusade, but I'm tired of morally ambiguous heroes doing 'what needs to be done' to save the world.
Savage Tide WAAAY did it. Having the players be part-owners of a gambling hall, associating with crime lords, prostitutes, people who keep an imp in a cage and have a fighting pit out the back, who have an intelligent, evil magic item for entertainment... I'm really not interested in this kind of stuff. While I can recognize the plot twists and cool stuff involved (again, the 'Deadwood' feel)... I like that in a TV show where there's a definite good guy and definite (but maybe ambiguous) bad guys. It's not something that I want to roleplay.It's the Book of Vile Darkness again (and let's please not re-open that festering old sore of an argument)... if someone wants vile (or morally ambiguous) content in the game, let them add it, don't make it a fixture.
This one bugged me too - would a paladin, or any other LG character actually accept working at the Goblin? Not sure they would, which immediately puts the party at odds with each other. I really have a problem with modules that can't (or shouldn't) be played by a Good alignment.
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By the third adventure, pirates will more or less be in the past. There's still a fair amount to come in the 2nd adventure though!Is there some way the the AP at least retains the piratey feel of the 1st module? I understand that #2 is a good chance to do so, but what about further on?
Thanks, James! I had the sneaking suspicion (given the Drow menace) this would be the case, which is why I persuaded my player to go with a pirate theme, rather than take a rogue and give him tons of piratey skills.
But so far my players are all happy, and I'm sure they will continue to be no matter what direction the adventure takes.
the small Typos, Errors and Dis-Continuity.
Regarding your first example:
It is very clear from reading the text that Smeed is Croat's creature
He is, in fact, an agent of Boss Croat, and it’s
Croat’s money that backs the loans he makes.
Saul's "musing" is clearly intended to obfusticate Saul's actual intentions. The PCs are, or probably should be, aware of the bad blood between Saul and Zincher, as introduced in the cindersnake encounter, so this just a red herring to put off the pcs. The only error is in the boxed text on page 27, as you pointed out.
personally, I find map and stat block errors far more troublesome.
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Creative Director
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The problem with paladins is the perception that they tend to be too stuffy and inflexible, and that creates the situation where, unlike pretty much every other character class, they have built-in limitations on the types of adventures they can go on. All part of the reason paladins are my least-favorite character class, honestly (that, and the fact that they seem to attract disruptive players who enjoy using the LG code to throw parties into discord).
It's unlikely that a paladin (or most lawful or good characters) would get a kick out of working at the Gold Goblin, but that's why we created the character traits in the Second Darkness Player's Guide—to give those kinds of characters reasons to be interested in what's going on in the gambling house. Extracting ideas from there, here are a few reasons why a LG character might want to "work" at the Gold Goblin.
1) If his friends (PCs!) are getting jobs there, he might be worried about them and could go along with them mostly just to make sure they stay out of trouble and to protect them from future problems that will certainly arise.
2) If the LG character's into being sneaky, he could be "undercover" and seeking a job at the Gold Goblin just so he can amass evidence or proof that the ownership is crooked.
3) A LG character might have some sort of relation to the owner or someone who works at the Gold Goblin, and by getting a job there he hopes to get more face-to-face time with that NPC to give him some chances to redeem that character.
4) Just because the character's LG, doesn't mean his family is. Maybe his father owes a crimelord a LOT of money, and since the PC is only 1st level and his options are limited, he begrudgingly takes a job at the Gold Goblin just to make enough money to get his father out of hoc. Alternately, perhaps his familiy is in debt even more, and the PC is FORCED to work at the Goblin for a while to pay off that debt.
5) There's a weird blot in the sky above Riddleport, and the LG character could have been sent into town to investigate it. There's not a lot of LG-friendly places in town, but there are lesser evils; the PC's superior could just have secured a place for the LG character to stay and that place just happens to be the Gold Goblin. He doen't work there, but he's staying there, and gets caught up in everything simply because of proximity.
Finally, one thing to remember about paladins. Played properly, by a player who WANTS to embrace the role, they SHOULD be faced with hard choices. They SHOULD be forced to make decisions between lesser evils, or have to swallow their pride by doing one unpleasant job in order to achieve the greater good. Walking the path of the straight and narrow is supposed to be difficult, and without temptation that path is easy and simple. If it was easy, everyone would be a paladin. Alternatively, if it was easy, there'd be no reason for divine agents (or whatever) to reward a character for adhering to a strict code. Put simply, a paladin who only adventures in black-and-white obvious good vs. obvious evil adventures isn't really living up to his role. Get out there in the grit and test yourself! How will you know you're TRULY worthy of being a paladin if you never expose yourself to temptation?
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Finally, one thing to remember about paladins. Played properly, by a player who WANTS to embrace the role, they SHOULD be faced with hard choices. They SHOULD be forced to make decisions between lesser evils, or have to swallow their pride by doing one unpleasant job in order to achieve the greater good. Walking the path of the straight and narrow is supposed to be difficult, and without temptation that path is easy and simple. If it was easy, everyone would be a paladin. Alternatively, if it was easy, there'd be no reason for divine agents (or whatever) to reward a character for adhering to a strict code. Put simply, a paladin who only adventures in black-and-white obvious good vs. obvious evil adventures isn't really living up to his role. Get out there in the grit and test yourself! How will you know you're TRULY worthy of being a paladin if you never expose yourself to temptation?
That, that's why Paladins are fun to play.
I do agree- being a paladin (or any good-type character) shouldn't be a cakewalk... but it shouldn't constantly be a drama, either (certainly not as a base class- for a prestige class, I'd call it even).
I guess perhaps my perception is that if there's going to be a 'walk in the door, you're a paladin' option (playing a paladin from 1st level) it shouldn't preclude you from doing the things your friends are doing. If my friends started working at Al Swearengen's Gem Saloon, I think I might have to find other friends... I just wouldn't be comfortable. And that shouldn't be the answer- put up or shut up.
I don't think that refusing to work for a man who a) imprisons devils; b) employs an evil, intelligent magic item; c) holds pit-fights at the back of the hall; d) has his waitresses dressed as succubi (this one, not to much, but at first glance, it might be a little off-putting); would be regarded as stuffy and inflexible- I think it would seem like a wise idea for the paladin to tell his friends "I don't like the look of this place- let's try the next tavern."
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I don't think that refusing to work for a man who a) imprisons devils; b) employs an evil, intelligent magic item; c) holds pit-fights at the back of the hall; d) has his waitresses dressed as succubi (this one, not to much, but at first glance, it might be a little off-putting); would be regarded as stuffy and inflexible- I think it would seem like a wise idea for the paladin to tell his friends "I don't like the look of this place- let's try the next tavern."
but knowing the world, its not like he's actually using real succubi as waitresses (like you might see in Chelix) And does your 1st level paladin know the extent of the person he is working for? lawfully throwing out cheaters to prevent the need of shady trick deals and such... by the establishment is fair, especially if he is just doing it to stay near his friends and avoid having them converted by the temptations around them.
well I just ran the first encounter tonight at the Gold Goblin and things went according to plan
most of the party has severe reservations about working for a casino, especially since most of them are from out of town and know of Riddleport's unsavory reputation
Saul has offered them free lodging for the night since the hour is so late and the party still wants more time to mull over his offer
my plan is to use the next day to show the PCs just how bad everywhere and everyone else in town is towards "visiting trouble making do-gooders" without any "friends"
Im hoping this will make them realize how important it is to have "friends" in Riddleport and maybe they will see that Saul is the lesser of the evils in Riddleport
the party has two clerics, Kord and Fhlarghan, so my other concern is that the party may choose to ally itself with the Temple of Cayden Cailean instead. This is gonna force some major plot and encounter rewrites towards having the party work from the Temple's perspective.
at first, I was annoyed that I had no material to work with a player who wanted to be a Cleric of Cayden Cailean (no info on their domains, powers, etc...) so he had to be a cleric of Fhlarghan
but now I am glad he wasn't able to be a Cleric of CC, then the party would have decided to work for the Temple of CC right away.
also, I noticed a couple of map problems with the Gold Goblin
area 6, Daily Cash storage, if Saul likes to open this room only once a day and a cashier and Guard are stationed in this room during operating hours... uh does this mean that these two poor sods are usually trapped in there until the next day when Saul opens it again? how exactly does the staff then get to the 8-Night Vault and 7-Counting Room at the end of each business day? Is that map missing something? or maybe Im not understanding some important details about how a casino operates? or the easiest solution of all, ignore the statement about Saul opening the Daily Cash storage only once a day
the Description for area 32 the Beast Wrangler's room mentions a portcullis with an eye slit??? maybe I misunderstand what a portcullis is... but why the heck would you put a covered eye slit on a portcullis? using the eye slit to peer thru would be like using a door standing out in the middle of an open field while taking a strolling across said wide open field - also the portcullis location is not marked on the map? is the comical portcullis the door to his room? or does it comically block access to the stairs leading down to Sublevel 2? this last option sounds more reasonable
area 38, the pit on Sublevel 2, what exactly prevents a fighter or an animal from fleeing down one of the side tunnels and out of sight of the spectators? maybe even back up the stairs to Sublevel 1 - I would imagine there needs to be a sort of airlock style cage system at each of the 8 entry points into the center of the pit to force combatants into the arena, animal or humanoid
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The problem with paladins is the perception that they tend to be too stuffy and inflexible, and that creates the situation where, unlike pretty much every other character class, they have built-in limitations on the types of adventures they can go on. All part of the reason paladins are my least-favorite character class, honestly (that, and the fact that they seem to attract disruptive players who enjoy using the LG code to throw parties into discord).
It's unlikely that a paladin (or most lawful or good characters) would get a kick out of working at the Gold Goblin, but that's why we created the character traits in the Second Darkness Player's Guide—to give those kinds of characters reasons to be interested in what's going on in the gambling house. Extracting ideas from there, here are a few reasons why a LG character might want to "work" at the Gold Goblin.
(Excellent RP analysis for paladins)
5) There's a weird blot in the sky above Riddleport, and the LG character could have been sent into town...
Thanks James, good stuff. You're right, its possible! Unfortunately, I've run into the other kind of paladins - the ones that are more NG than LG, and aren't disruptive at all, because they aren't really paladins...
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I could see where a paladin might take an interest in the staff and customers at the Gold Goblin in order to witness to them and try to save their souls. You can't bring people into the light without venturing into the darkness. You can't clean up a town like Riddleport without getting a little dirty.
Prostitutes like paladins. Remove disease anyone?
thank you Greg, I went ahead and made the changes because they seemed logical
I think I am just griping about imperfection because I am such a perfectionist about games
Im pretty sure that if I use my GM brain and GM powers I can overcome any typos/errors in a published module
lol