I understand the laudable goal of being 3.5e back compatible. But as I've been putting together a character for Crimson Throne using the Pathfinder beta, I wonder if that ship has sailed.
I'm building a cleric. As usual in 3.5, I start planning out my build progression, because to get into prestige classes etc. you have to plan from level 1 (I don't like that, but that's the game).
So I start going through Complete Divine, the other Complete books for feats, PHBII, etc. Many of the feats and p-class powers don't make sense any more (like anything referring to domain spell lists). Others don't make sense because of the changed turning rules. Even ones that might make sense, my DM thinks are unbalanced in Pathfinder - in cases I disagree, but anyway. (And some now suck to where I consider them unbalanced in the "don't take this!" sense.) Most prestige classes really suck now in that they don't advance your turning/channeling. The net result is that my 3.5 resources, except for the raw spell lists, aren't all that useful.
And you know, I'm OK with that. Frankly the 3.5e prestige classes seemed mostly to come from someone's diseased mind with little to no regard for what classical archetypes someone would want to build a character to. After having some hands-on time I wonder if more deviation from 3.5 to make a better system is merited, because the "cost" of losing back compatibility is IMO already being incurred. Don't go for 3.75e, go for "4e the way it should have been." Y'all have a super aggressive publishing schedule coming up, seems like you could easily fill the need for feats/p-classes quickly and, I dare say, in higher quality than D&D did in 3.5e.
I'll save specific change thoughts for other posts, this is more for discussion of how much value there is in cleaving to 3.5e too tightly when so much if it can't really be used RAW now.
Many of the feats and p-class powers don't make sense any more (like anything referring to domain spell lists).
Actually, "domain spell lists" do exist in Pathfinder Beta (since clerics get bonus spells, not SLAs now). They're just missing level 3, 4, 6, and 8 spells.
Many of the feats and p-class powers don't make sense any more (like anything referring to domain spell lists).Actually, "domain spell lists" do exist in Pathfinder Beta (since clerics get bonus spells, not SLAs now). They're just missing level 3, 4, 6, and 8 spells.
They're pretty much cleric spells already, so while this is technically true it means in the context of many clerical feats it's pointless.
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Clerics seem to be the most trying case, because the changes to domains and turning were quite extreme. Still, even the vast majority of divine feats shouldn't be any trouble to use, since they just create a different effect for the use of a turn attempt, and you still have the same number of turns.
Also, a lot of your complaints -- that some of the divine feats are overpowered, and some of them are underpowered was as true in 3.5 as it is in Pathfinder. I wouldn't blame Pathfinder for the brokenness of some of the stuff in the WOTC splats (or OGL books either). The PrCs you mention that don't increase a cleric's turns per day didn't increase them in 3.5 either. If Pathfinder made turning so great that you want more and more of it, and thus PrCs are less attractive, I think that's a major improvement in the game. If some Divine feats are now not obviously superior to basic turning, that's also a major improvement.
I would like clerics to be among the most extreme change to 3.5, I'm not really interested in seeing the game alter too much more radically than it already has. Fix the parts that don't work the way they should, but otherwise leave it alone.
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After having some hands-on time I wonder if more deviation from 3.5 to make a better system is merited, because the "cost" of losing back compatibility is IMO already being incurred. Don't go for 3.75e, go for "4e the way it should have been." Y'all have a super aggressive publishing schedule coming up, seems like you could easily fill the need for feats/p-classes quickly and, I dare say, in higher quality than D&D did in 3.5e.
I agree, I think it is right about where I would want the changes to be, however PrCs could stand to have a little bit of change but by changing them you are getting rid of a vast resource throughout a tremendous amount of books. So, I think it would not be useful to modify the PrCs that much. However some broad changes in how multi-classing works could make the system better.
Lowering requirements on feats and PrCs would allow less "planning". And you hit on one of my major beefs with the 3e system. The need to "plan your character from level 1 to 20". If you get rid of requirements it might increase the ability to fly by the seat of your pants and not need to design your character from 1 to 20 when you first create a character. I can see dumping nearly all feat prerequisites and only retaining the obvious ones - like you must take two weapon fighting before improved two weapon fighting. PrCs could remove all prerequisites except maintain a must be level 6 to get in to this.
Lowering requirements on feats and PrCs would allow less "planning". And you hit on one of my major beefs with the 3e system. The need to "plan your character from level 1 to 20". If you get rid of requirements it might increase the ability to fly by the seat of your pants and not need to design your character from 1 to 20 when you first create a character. I can see dumping nearly all feat prerequisites and only retaining the obvious ones - like you must take two weapon fighting before improved two weapon fighting. PrCs could remove all prerequisites except maintain a must be level 6 to get in to this.
I totally agree. I'd like to be able to level opportunistically - that is, take the class and abilities that make sense for a character of that level, without having to worry about the "eventual build." You need to live through those levels after all - I see so many NPC villains that have a powerful build but if you walk it back, you realize they were really gimped half of their life.
PrCs should have fewer stat requirements and DMs should take more seriously the in-game requirements. They should require belonging to some organization, or rep with some kind of faction, or something, most of them.
...I see so many NPC villains that have a powerful build but if you walk it back, you realize they were really gimped half of their life...
...which is a good reason to be those bitter, hate filled monsters they are ;)