We're in the midst of playtesting Pathfinder Beta (much like everyone else, we've upgraded from Alpha 1 to 2 to 3 and now Beta)...and there seems to be a problem with the Improved Overrun feat.
Here's the relevant language from Pathfinder Beta:
Overrun
As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver attack roll as normal. If your attack is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attack exceeds the DC by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
Here are the new rules for Improved Overrun from Pathfinder Beta:
You are skilled at running down your foes.
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver.
And here's the original Improved Overrun feat from the D20 3.5 SRD:
Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit
When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent.
Normal
Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.
Special
A fighter may select Improved Overrun as one of his fighter bonus feats.
If you notice, the Pathfinder Beta (and previous Alpha versions) give an opponent the opportunity to avoid an Overrun attack, even if the attacker has the Improved Overrun feat. Whereas, the 3.5 SRD version does not. Was this an intentional design decision in conjunction with the Combat Maneuver experiment? Or just a bit of errata? Has anyone mentioned this before? I couldn't find any changes throughout all of the Alpha or Beta rules...
--Neil
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Jason will probably clarify if the rules are incomplete, but my reading of the new rules was that Improved Overrun no longer takes away the opponent's ability to avoid an overrun. This would be consistent with the spirit of the other changes, which are designed to make these maneuvers easier to adjudicate and slightly more challenging to pull off. Forcing an opponent to be overrun also seems a bit too much like a bull rush, and they're probably trying to distinguish the two combat maneuvers better than they were under 3.5, since a bull rush can never be avoided by simply stepping aside.
I think overrun chiefly exists more as a way of moving past enemies who have you cornered, rather than as an offensive maneuver. You risk an attack of opportunity unless you have improved overrun. If Improved Overrun is a requirement for Trample, it may say specifically that someone with Trample can't be avoided, but I don't have the rules handy as I type this.
We're in the midst of playtesting Pathfinder Beta (much like everyone else, we've upgraded from Alpha 1 to 2 to 3 and now Beta)...and there seems to be a problem with the Improved Overrun feat.
Here's the relevant language from Pathfinder Beta:
** spoiler omitted **Here are the new rules for Improved Overrun from Pathfinder Beta:
** spoiler omitted **And here's the original Improved Overrun feat from the D20 3.5 SRD:
[spoiler]Improved Overrun [General]
Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.Benefit
When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent.Normal
...
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If Improved Overrun is a requirement for Trample, it may say specifically that someone with Trample can't be avoided, but I don't have the rules handy as I type this.
For reference:
Trample (Combat)
While mounted, you can ride down opponents.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent
while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you.
Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target
you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack
rolls against prone targets.
So, Trample does include the "unblockable" part, but doesn't have Improved Overrun as a prerequisite, oddly enough.
So, Trample does include the "unblockable" part, but doesn't have Improved Overrun as a prerequisite, oddly enough.
Hence, I still believe they erroneously left out the "unblockable" part on Improved Overrun. Otherwise, it's a pretty wasted feat that will almost never come up in a game. Comparatively-speaking it isn't nearly as worthwhile to take versus something else.
--Neil
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I think you are both reading the feat correctly and misinterpreting it. It would seem that it is not the feat that has been changed/nerfed, but the maneuver itself. Here's how it works, from what I can tell.
Step 1: You declare an overrun attempt.
Step 2: The target of the attempt gets an attack of opportunity on you.
Step 3: The target chooses whether to let you past or not.
-- Step 3a: If the target chooses to let you pass, you go past. The attempt is resolved.
-- Step 3b: If the target attempts to prevent you, you make a CMB check as normal. (I believe that the DC of the check is increased by any damage done in the AoO, but I'd been to look again to be sure.) If you succeed, you move through their space - otherwise, you do not move.
So Improved Overrun removes step 2, but not the choice in step 3; what's really important here is that, as far as I can tell, the target could both move out of the way and take the AoO on you. Which is interesting, and at first glance appears to be a nerf.
will someone using overrun generate 2 attacks of oportunity from a target with combat reflexes? (one from the overrun manuver and one from moving in the target treathened area)