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I look at the wizard and I just don't get it, the universalist gets abilities and bonus spells that are far better than the specialized class (since you can pick from any school) and some of the specialist bonus abilities that are so weak that it is preferable to memorize prohibited school spells. I just get the feeling that you would prefer people to not specialize. Or if they do specialize to ignore prohibited schools. I'm not opposed to it or anything, it just makes me curious, I'll roleplay being specialized anyways because I don't really care about mechanics, rather I was just hoping to hear your motivation/reason behind the new approach to specialization? I mean, in my opinion, specialization should make you better at your school of focus and the new version feels like instead it's just a matter of minor flavor. Also don't get me wrong I'm not whining or complaining I'm just seriously curious as to the design decisions behind it.
I don't think non speclist should get the bounes spells.A generalist caster should only get the 1,8th and 20th powers not the extra spells.
I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I've seen some people say "nobody ever plays a generalist wizard in my campaign" and they take this as evidence that specialist wizards are too good. But on the other hand, I've seen people say "nobody ever plays a specialist wizard in my campaign", too!
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I think one of the key problems that people are missing is that specialists sacrifice MUCH less than they have in 3.5. In Pathfinder, specialists and generalists get the same thing. They get bonus spells and some nifty supernatural abilities, pretty even along the board. The one thing the Specialists get that the Generalist/Universalist doesn't is a single 'Specialist' ability, like the Illusionists' ability to extend all his Illusions by 2 rounds.
Remember also, the specialist can still prepare ANY spell he wants, including banned ones. All that happens is he loses his 'specialist' ability, which still gives him the same number of abilities and bonus spells as a Generalist.
I do agree that the Generalist shouldn't have such a powerful capstone ability, but otherwise, the Wizard seems MORE balanced now than ever, since now specialists can still prepare any spell they want, just temporarily losing a single ability while they have them.
Original Poster: does this really fit the "Ability Scores and Races" topic that you posted in?
Jason do you just not like specialists?
Wow.. loaded question there.
the universalist gets abilities and bonus spells that are far better than the specialized class (since you can pick from any school)
On this single point it looks at first glance that you have a point. We went from Alpha having a set list for each option, regardless of if the Universalist had a more balanced selection, to Universalists having a broad choice and specialists a narrow choice.
However, after all is said and done, both choose a spell at each level, and are stuck with it forever after. If this was a bonus spell they could choose different every day, it would be excessively biased. However as it is, both types of wizards will do their best to choose a spell they would always want to have memorized. Is that really that great a difference in options? I'm not sure.
I am sure that in 7-8 years of 3.0 and 3.5 I had exactly *one* wizard that didn't specialize. He was Cleric 19/Wizard 1. The power gap that bonus spell made was *far* too great to ever choose not to for most, even ones who didn't really want to specialize.
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It isn't just that universalists get the choice of any school for their bonus spells but rather the kinda weak benefit of not memorizing your prohibited spell schools. As a player of a focused enchanter in Shackled City campaign in 3.5 I knew there were spells that I really wanted from other schools, when dungeon crawling I think the draw to use a prohibited school would have been to great and I would memorize it just because. If I'm memorizing spells from my prohibited schools because thats better than some of the minor boosts granted then the character doesn't really feel specialized. Like I said though in all I can live with these things. I'm just curious as to Jason's reasoning behind the changes. And I fully understand that he's under no obligation to tell me, I just thought I'd give it a shot. I'm still embarassed that I put this in the wrong forum though.
Seems balanced for the most part.
Specialists get a cool power that generalists don't get, and if they want to cast from all schools they forgo that power. Generalists don't get any special power, but they do get to pick from all schools.
Seems balanced for the most part.
Specialists get a cool power that generalists don't get, and if they want to cast from all schools they forgo that power. Generalists don't get any special power, but they do get to pick from all schools.
The problem is that most specialists get a kind of lame power, not a cool power:
- Energy resistance 5 to one element -- lame, easily duplicated by a long duration spell
- +2 armor bonus -- lame, easily duplicated by a long duration spell
- Always act during surprise round -- handy & unique
- +2 enhancement bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate -- O.K., if you're into that
- +1 on damage -- lame (+1 damage? seriously?)
- "Concentration" illusions last "concentration + 2 rounds" -- lame, extremely situational
- Control 8 HD of undead per level instead of 4 HD -- as a DM, I hate "zookeeper" PCs
- +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex or Con -- better than nothing, I guess
stuff
And yet, they still get a power. :)
- Energy resistance 5 to one element -- Always on is not lame. :)
- +2 armor bonus -- Again, continually on is not lame. It's hard to get AC without duration.
- Always act during surprise round -- I thought this one was minor.
- +2 enhancement bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate -- Not for me
- +1 on damage -- It's +1 damage ever 5 CL. Not too shabby, since it stacks with everything else.
- "Concentration" illusions last "concentration + 2 rounds" -- It's ok
- Control 8 HD of undead per level instead of 4 HD -- I like pets and pet classes, plus this one is astoundingly powerful.
- +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex or Con -- Hard to get stat bonuses, so these are nice
Mind you this is from a "Somethings better than nothing, considering it's harder to get something other ways" mentality.
And yet, they still get a power. :)
IF they give something up...
Energy resistance 5 to one element -- Always on is not lame. :)
Let me put it another way. You pick the element at the beginning of the day. So if you happened to meet some fire/cold/electricity-breathing monster, and if you happened to pick the right element that morning, and if it happened to breathe on you, you would save a whopping 5 points of damage. Yeeee-ha!
+2 armor bonus -- Again, continually on is not lame. It's hard to get AC without duration.
Any ability that is made obsolete by a cheap magic item (bracers of armor +2, or a few pearls of power I, or a lesser extend metamagic rod) is pretty lame in my book.
Always act during surprise round -- I thought this one was minor.
It seems like my characters are always getting ambushed. YMMV. At any rate, it can't be easily replicated with a magic item.
+1 on damage -- It's +1 damage ever 5 CL. Not too shabby, since it stacks with everything else.
I looked up "shabby" in the dictionary, and it said "See: evocation school power". :)
+1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex or Con -- Hard to get stat bonuses, so these are nice
You save some money of a belt of dexterity/constitution, I guess.
Mind you this is from a "Somethings better than nothing, considering it's harder to get something other ways" mentality.
If it was really "something for nothing", I'd agree. But you're giving up the ability to pick any bonus spells you want, and the ability to cast certain spells at all (if you want to use that power).
Then again, I've never liked specialists as their benefits have never been worth it.
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[If it was really "something for nothing", I'd agree. But you're giving up the ability to pick any bonus spells you want, and the ability to cast certain spells at all (if you want to use that power).
Or you wind up with the situation that the wizard never bothers to show specialization always having prohibited school spells memorized. In otherwords the only thing differentiating them is their 1st-8th-20th level abilities. and don't get me started on some of those, there are specialty schools that don't really get a useful ability till 8th or 20th level.
Although I also have some comments on the matter of wizards/generalists/specialists, this board is not the appropriate forum for it. It is best to wait until the discussion of classes or magic comes up.
I don't know about the rest of the specialists, but diviners really benefit from the new rules. Under 3.5, you'd just put true strike as your 1st-level bonus spell and detect scrying as your 4th-level bonus.
In Pathfinder, you can get multiple true strikes instead of just one, and 8th-level diviners get detect scrying always on without having to prepare it (and since it's a supernatural ability, it can't be dispelled.) In addition to that, the 8th-level diviner gets better at scrying, which makes perfect sense. If you wanted to scry on someone, you'd call a specialist in the field, right?
The ability to always act in the surprise round can be quite powerful, depending on your initiative score and that of your enemies. An elf diviner with a high Dex and Improved Initiative can make life very short for a would-be ambusher. The closest thing to this in 3.5 is foresight, which is a 9th-level spell. (Foresight also prevents you from being flat-footed, which the diviner ability doesn't if the diviner doesn't win initiative. Plus, I've always thought foresight was way too weak for 9th-level. +2 to AC? Well, that's impressive.)
What about suggesting some alternative powers? I agree that these are... somewhat lame.
I agree that these should rather be unique.
Just tinkering!
Abjurer
now:
Energy resistance 5 (10 after level 11) against one element (chosen when you prepare spells)
- agreed, not too good
change to:
-Ignore first X (50?) damage you suffer that day (book keeping = for me bad)
or
-Ignore 1 attack X times/day (including those from traps or spells - you can activate after the damage is rolled)
or
-Ignore all damage for 1 turn X times/day (swift action to activate)
Conjurer
now: +2 armor bonus to AC +1/5 CL
change to:
+2 bonus to AC +1/5 CL (That stacks with the mage armour and it may work even in anti-magic field - there's nothing said that these abilities are connected with spells or something)
Diviner
now: act in the surprise round
-not bad for me
Enchanter
now: All day long bonus to three skills
change to:
- skill check reroll with these skills with Int bonus to it
or
- allow someone to rerolla will save with your Int bonus to it
Evoker
now: +1 damage to evocation spell you cast /5 caster levels
-LAAAAME
change to:
- change energy type of an evocation spell x times/day
or
- apply metamagic feat for free to an evocation spell x times/day
Illusionist
now: Illusion spells with concentration duration last 2 + 1 / 5CL rounds after you stop concentrating
- meh... not that stellar
change to:
- recall an illusion spell you've cast today x times / day
or
- Cast any spell from your spell book two spell levels lower than your maximum level, x times /day. Spell is an illusion - 50% real - deals only 1/2 damage... Anyone interacting with it rolls a will save to disbelieve (no damage...) (gain a bit more complicated...)
or
- miss chance (like displacement) (additional rolls with every attack... not that good) perhaps cover?
Necromancer
now: 8 HD / CL
- okay I'm allowed to keep an army or make that brute following me tougher... not much for me either
change to:
- fear aura
or
- channel energy (wandering to divine caster's domain - not good)
Transmuter
now: +1 to physical score / 5 CL, chosen when you prepare spells
- not bad, but I'd allow the wizard to change the bonus. Not necessarily in combat (10 min concentration?)
Director of Games
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Hey there all,
Moved this to general. As an aside, there are some good ideas here, but to be honest, I am focused on races and ability scores right now. Feel free to continue the discussion, but we are not quite to this particular topic yet.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I liked Zmar's ideas about abilities:
Abjuration(ignoring one/X attack per day) and Evoker(free metamagic/X per day) & Enchantment (forcing targets to take worst of 2 saves or just a flat penalty) for spells of their School.
the Conjuration School providing an AC bonus... just feels off (isn't that Abjuration?)
Why not actually alter how Summoning spells are cast: Since so many are Full Round actions, and thus most vulnerable to interruption, why not a large, scaling bonus (Level+Int? more?) to Concentration for Conjuration spells? And/Or only make them roll Concentration once vs. the highest damage attack, so multiple hits don't force multiple checks.
the Necromancy School ability?... right.
I liked Zmar's ideas about abilities:
Abjuration(ignoring one/X attack per day) and Evoker(free metamagic/X per day) & Enchantment (forcing targets to take worst of 2 saves or just a flat penalty) for spells of their School.the Conjuration School providing an AC bonus... just feels off (isn't that Abjuration?)
Why not actually alter how Summoning spells are cast: Since so many are Full Round actions, and thus most vulnerable to interruption, why not a large, scaling bonus (Level+Int? more?) to Concentration for Conjuration spells? And/Or only make them roll Concentration once vs. the highest damage attack, so multiple hits don't force multiple checks.
the Necromancy School ability?... right.
Glad to hear that
Forcing someone to reroll a save with your INT bonus as a penalty would also be a neat enchantment ability (You WILL obey!)
Mage armour is also a conjuration spell, shield is abjuration, so I think lasting AC bonus vs. temporary protection would be justifiable.
Conjuration is much more diverse school than evocation, so I'm not all comfortable with strengthening the summoning part.
What about limited teleportation? Or perhaps creating miniature portals (Something like can sharns do in FR) to deliver a touch attack x times a day?
And What about allowing Evoker to convert any evocation school spell he has prepared for any other evocation spell he knows of spell level 1 (or two) lower than the original spell was (again limited by uses/day)? Evocation is not all about damage after all. It would also make a good transmutation or conjuration power...or any specialist school. It would also encourage preparing a lot of your speciality schools.
Soo many possibilities. I think that when appropriate section of the boars is up there should be some think tank concerning this. First we need to decide what do we want to see accomplished by each school and then create school powers and other thingies...
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Conjuration school makes no bleeding sense, they just use it as a catch all school for whatever effect they wanted in 3.5 healing at least could be partially adjudicated with the whole positive energy thing but where the heck does force for the mage armour and this +2 to AC come from, last time I checked there is no plane of force. Abjuration it makes sense because that is the school of defense. Heck I could even understand evocation since force is making something from nothing, but conjuration c'mon, personally I wish Jason would change the spell schools of some spells to make them fit their niche properly.
Which in turn may be an issue for compatibility...home made theme defined schools anyone?
I've already requested and will request again
Please move this to the general forum.
hopefully no one else will say this again.
Sorry - I only read the first post when I posted - now I finished reading the whole threat and saw that my comment on the matter was not the first and that you did request the move already...
Actually this is the right place for this topic untill the class section is open...
May I ask a question related to this topic?
Does a Wizard have to actually "know" (i.e., have it in his/her book) the spell he selects for his specialist bonus?
The rules are actually not clear on this.
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More to the point. It would seem that the easiest (and fairest) solution for the time being would be to "ban" generalist wizards until the issue has been cleared up.
(I would have suggested the reverse, but RotRL will not work without Wizard specialization.)
First post, and already off-topic. Yet somewhat related.
I am under the impression that all wizards are more similar to each other than ever. I don't like that.
Under 3.5, the entire book collection was used to trade familiar for this, bonus feat for that, general spell slot for X, etc. That actually made room for a lil munchkinning or avoid PrC penalties (no adv. for the familiar for exemple), but in the end you ended up creating a real specialist with unique abilities difficult for a generalist/other specialist to copy.
With PFPRG all the casters are almost the same minus the above discussed abilities. And if the specialists do happen to prepare some prohibited school spells that day, they really end up like a generalist who choose spells from a particular school for his bonuses. Minus a couple things off course, but very minor.
I'm not against specialists to be eventually able to cast prohibited school, even right away at lev1, but the spell effects should reflect the specialization. And this links to the +2DC to all schools that the generalist gets. A "problem" some have argue in some other posts.
Thrown ideas:
-make the DC or CL for focus school go up with levels (stackable with spell focus and penetration, otherwise it's just a free feat that can be copied)
-have a permenant penalty for DCs and CLs when casting prohibited schools. That way you get around the whole Archmage lev20 that can't cast magic missile. But you put some real drawback to the school choices.
-have the bound item focus free casting limited to your specialized school, or even limit the bound item focus option to specialists. Generalists having to stick with the familiar
-Related to the above, the bound item focus is the way to go for any wizard who plans on PrClassing. It's a fix bonus wheras the familiar might stop progressing. That's a minor design problem IMO.
-remove bonus feats from the wizard progression and add them to the generalist gained abilities. Removing his actual bonuses AND spells.
Many PrC in 3.5 are a minor advantage over straight Wiz. But with the stopped progression of bonus spells, I think the (rightfully) intended incentives to stay in the base class become a deterrent to quit it. Maybe the bonus spells should be kept progressing while other things should stop progressing. Like the bonus abilities.
Clerics, for exemple, are more different from each other now that you get the bonuses from both domains at the same time. I like that. Why not make it also happen for wizards.