A lot of you probably do not know me, since I rarely post on this forum, but for the past few weeks I have been playing using the Pathfinder RPG rules. While there is a few changes I like with the classes, a fair portion of the changes I have a strong dislike for. Constant debates with my DM has also unintentionally shown me several other aspects I dislike as well.
As much as I don’t like the Pathfinder RPG however, I’m stuck. I’m with a gamming group I like, but it doesn’t seem likely that I will be playing anything out with the Pathfinder RPG now.
So, I’m attempting a mature approach. Rather than whine like a child, I’m instead going to outline what I dislike about the Pathfinder RPG. I honestly don’t expect to really alter much of what may be happening, but at least I will have a chance to explain what I would change if it were me designing this. If you all agree with what I say here, that’s great, but I’m not going to complain if no-one does, we all have our different styles of play after all.
I understand that trying to design a game is hard, but improving an existing one can be harder at times as well, and so to that end I have also listed how I feel improvements can be made.
And so…here goes. I know a lot of you won’t agree with much said (in fact, I don’t think many of you will agree with anything I say here really) but here goes anyway.
The Races – I have little problems with the individual races, but I do have one main concern regarding all of them. The ability increases. Firstly, I feel this make races less special. Before, a race with a mental ability bonus was rare, and playing as one did make a good difference on the party. Now, every race has a +2 bonus to two abilities, this makes existing abilities a little less special. That +2 to Charisma Spellscale’s receive to represent their innate sorcerer powers….pointless now as gnomes now possess the exact same amount of power. My second dislike of this is the +2 bonuses that humans and half-elves get. I feel this makes the races even less different than before. Without even trying now, a human can match the grace of an elf or the strength of a half-orc. If a human cleric (who places his +2 bonus on Wisdom) worships the god of elves, said human will actually be better than an elf who worships the same god.
Minor Nitpick – Half-Orcs. I dislike the fluff regarding how half-orcs come into existence. Unlike the rest of my dislikes about the Pathfinder RPG, I have been vocal about this dislike. I would like to make clear that, although I hate the idea that half-orcs exist purely as a result of “Orc Rape” I’m not asking paizo to change that. I’m simply asking that the fluff be worded so as to at least leave things ambiguous. I hate to break it to most, but if you actually read the Half-Orc entry in the player’s handbook, it says nothing of force. In fact, it even says that the tribes that spawn half-orcs are usually peaceful tribes that trade with each other. As said, I don’t want much changed, just a small block of text that at least leaves things ambiguous, that way players might be more open to playing a half-orc that isn’t spawned by violence.
Barbarians – As it stands, barbarians are too much like a Psion. They spend “points” to perform special attacks and gain special benefits. Not only that, this also removes backwards compatibility. In my current group, we dislike the barbarians rage because we see it too much of a computer game button. You push it to become stronger for the combat. Our group liked the variant as shown in the players handbook 2, though this variant can’t be used with rage points.
Rage Points – Allows the player to adjust what powers he/she receives whilst raging, but expends rage points to do so, potentially limiting how long he/she can rage.
Players Handbook 2 Variant – The character can, in theory, rage for hours on end, provided he/she is still in combat. This takes away the players direct control of rage, but in exchange, they can potentially rage for much longer.
If you do not take into account my first dislike of Rage points, please at least consider point two, since to my knowledge backwards compatibility is something Paizo are trying to emphasise in their design.
Possible Fix – Provide a variant which, whilst keeping the Barbarian at the same level, removes the need for Rage points. This would allow the use of the player’s handbook 2 variant for those with a similar taste as my own gamming group.
Bard – I believe the bard changes to be pretty good, except for one, the capstone ability at 20th level. Firstly, I do not understand why such an ability exists. Paizo have attempted to remove “Save or Death” effects from the game, yet felt the need to add this one. I consider this deadlier than a typical save effect for two reasons
Reason 1 – A player can protect themselves from a normal death effect using spells such as “Death Ward”. A character essentially has to be deaf to avoid this one.
Reason 2 – This isn’t really a “Save or Death” effect, it is a “Suck or Death” effect. Allow me to explain this for those unfamiliar with the term “Save or Suck”. Such an effect, even if it doesn’t kill you, automatically stuns you for X number of rounds. A single, high level bard can now far easily kill a party of just 1 level lower…as long as the bard goes first. What members he/she doesn’t kill will be stunned and possible subject to more spells/effects.
Possible Fix – Alter the 20th level ability. If the ability is something similar to current death effects (I.E Make a save or take X number of damage) it becomes far friendlier.
Cleric – As stated before in some of my posts, I feel that the Channel ability only fortifies the idea of a cleric being a “Healer”. Also, I would like to point out that the standard cleric, while overpowered, is only actually that way if he/she doesn’t use healing spells. Go to any CharOP board, you will see that the most powerful cleric builds don’t rely on healing magic at all. In all honesty, I feel “Codzilla” is far easier to achieve now, since clerics now have far more freedom with their spells. It also provides an unnecessary “nerf” to evil clerics. A good cleric can now heal his party between combats, an evil cleric…actually hurts his/her party when using Rebuke Undead now.
Possible Fix – Remove the “Healing” aspect of channel undead. Make it a domain power given by the healing domain. That way, if players still insist on a “Healer” Cleric, they can still take it, it also makes said domain better at what it should be. Likewise with the aspect which deals damage to living creatures.
Druid – All in all, I don’t really have any problem with the druid. Although it doesn’t look like many changes were made, I agree with which ones that have been put in place.
Fighter – I only really have one problem with the fighter. I feel that with the additional feats added, it only subtracts from what few class features the fighter has. I also still feel that the fighter’s 19th and 20th level abilities are a little out of the blue.
Possible Fix – A build up of sorts to the fighter’s capstone abilities. Give the fighter minor damage reduction (such as DR 1/-) earlier, then build up to the final one. The same applies with Weapon Mastery as well, allow the fighter to avoid being disarmed earlier, for instance, rather than given two powerful abilities during one level.
Another possible Fix – Give the fighter a class feature, which essentially boils down to “Pick an ability on this list, your fighter now has that ability” and make damage reduction, the ability to not be disarmed, or the improved critical modifier one of those abilities. This also provides plenty of room to help make other styles of fighters as well, such as abilities to make dexterity based fighters more viable, or even an ability that reduces arcane spell failure that could work well with a Fighter/Arcane Spellcaster multiclass.
Truthfully, a few friends and I have been working on our own “What we would do to change the fighter” project. Although I honestly don’t expect Paizo to use this, I think I will show what we have done so far to emphasise how flexible the second “fix” could be.
Monk – Like the druid, I agree with what few changes have been made. Though this is only a personal preference, I think the Ki points for the monk works well. Though this is partly due to a previous point made in the barbarian entry. While I feel this makes these classes too much like psions, I feel this is a little more fitting for a monk.
Psion – Character whom channels inner power to (Insert class description)
Monk – Character whom channels inner power to (Insert class description)
Paladin – I feel the paladin becomes too much of a “Minor Buffer” with so many Auras. I do feel it is a little to much to gain simply be being near a paladin. Many of these Aura’s also provide too much of a jump between levels.
“I’m a paladin who reached level 17, suddenly a commoner with a knife can’t physically hurt me. He could before…and it took him a while, but now he can hack at me all day”. Sorry if the previous sentence sounded a little sarcastic or such, but it does show my point.
Possible Fix – Like the fighter fix mentioned earlier, ease into the more dramatic abilities a little more
Possible Fix two – The non-Paizo paladin already has plenty of abilities which scale with level Rather than add a horde of additional class features, simply emphasise the current ones more.
Ranger – I feel the favoured terrain is too much. As well as keep tracking of which bonuses you gain whilst fighting opponents XYZ, you now have to keep track of another list. Also, since every monster has a fixed creature type listed in their entry, bonuses against monsters are easier to work out. Terrains are open far more for debate. This also provides problems with settings as well. I have been working on a short campaign in an arctic themed setting. I may as well just say to the ranger “You gain a permanent bonus to stealth, perception, survival skills and initiative, and these increase as you level” since there is no reason to take any other. Different types of monsters in a setting I can always fit, but different terrain can be a struggle in some campaigns.
My second problem with this class would be it’s capstone ability. Again, just like the bard, “Save or Death” effects have been downgraded a bit in Paizo…yet the ranger now gets such an ability at 20th level now. Not only that, it provides a “Save or Death” effect that affects Undead and Constructs as well now.
Possible Fix – Remove favoured terrain. The ranger fills his/her role nicely enough; it won’t under power it at all to remove this. Secondly, remove the capstone ability as well. Giving a ranger huge bonuses to damage his/her favoured enemy is good enough as it is. If you wish ranger favoured enemies to be more viable, consolidating the favoured enemy list could be a better way.
Rogue – I again, dislike the capstone ability, similier to my dislike of the ranger’s and bard’s capstone ability.
Possible Fix – Downgrade the ability. Stunning an opponent, making them flat-footed for another round, or even being able to deal non-lethal damage, all effective abilities that don’t overpower the rogue at all.
Sorcerer – One major thing I dislike is the sorcerer changes. What changes it has does nothing to make it on par with the wizard. There is also a fluff orientated dislike behind these bloodlines.
Bloodlines in General – I honestly feel these should be represented with something like feats. The idea that every sorcerer has to have an unusual heritage I dislike. In fact, up until playing dungeons and dragons, I never even heard of sorcerer heritages before. Even then, it was only implied, these heritages leave little doubt. I like the idea of being able to play an “Elf Sorcerer”, not “And Elf Sorcerer who has his powers because his daddy was a demon/devil/angel/dragon/thing from another planet”.
Aberrant – Aberrations are more likely to produce Psionic off-spring rather than arcane. In fact, aberration heritage feats exist in 3.5, they’re in the book Complete Psionic. I honestly feel this heritage should go.
Abyssal – Again, not likely to produce sorcerers. I know Paizo don’t intend to use non-OGL content, but a fair amount of players still intend to. Abyssal heritage is more likely to produce warlocks, and let’s be honest, the sorcerer doesn’t really lose much if this is taken out.
Arcane, Celestial, Destined, Draconic and Inferno – I have little problem with these heritages, out with the Celestial, Draconic and Inferno, simply because I feel these are too radical. I always feel that something that really personalizes your character should be in the form of feats. Although I dislike most of the unusual heritages, I feel it is important to encourage what I do like about this class, which is the Arcane and Destined abilities. They don’t require unusual creatures doing things to your character’s ancestors and give the sorcerer a much needed boast.
Elemental – Again, I feel this goes to the wrong class. Elemental-based spell casters are more suited to druids.
Fey – See Abyssal above
Undead – Sorry, but I don’t see how non-living creatures can create living off-spring. I don’t think this heritage suits at all. Not to mention that being undead doesn’t provide inherit magical powers, otherwise we’d have zombies throwing magic missiles at adventurers.
Possible Fixes out with heritage alteration – Remove second level. As much as I disagree with Frank Trollmans methods, I believe he was right with this point. There’s little reason for a sorcerer to lag behind spell levels .It doesn’t make the sorcerer broken (at least, no more so than a wizard can be) and it brings it on par with its competitor.
Wizard – I don’t have a problem with the wizard-schools themselves, but how some abilities work I feel need some adjustments.
Necromancy – I feel the powers here need to be altered. Not all necromancers are undead lovers; in fact, some of the more powerful undead hunting spells, such as Undead to Death, a necromantic.
Universal – Being a universal wizard is already too good. Go to any form and discuss the “Batman” wizard, not a single “Batman” build will feature a specialist wizard.
Possible Fixes – Provide a variant for the necromantic one, possibly providing undead hunting powers as well, this at least leaves the option open. And remove the universal wizard powers, this provides far more incentive to specialize, it also leaves the wizard at roughly the same power level, which is still fairly high compared to other classes.
Death Effects – While I agree some effects can be powerful, I dislike the change. They are, essentially, direct damage spells now. There’s little difference between Slay Living and a good old disintegrate spell now.
Possible Fix – Keep Death effects the same as they are, except that instead of dying on a failed save, you are simply put into negatives. This still makes the spells deadly, but doesn’t pre-emptively end an adventurer’s career.
And, as promised earlier, the fighter class feature designed by myself and a few friends. As I said, I honestly don’t expect Paizo to use this, but it simply shows the possibilities regarding one of my fixes listed.
COMBAT FOCUS (EX)
At 2nd level, the fighter gains the ability to enter a meditative state in combat. When a fighter makes her first successful attack in combat, she may choose to enter Combat Focus. Combat Focus lasts a number of rounds equal to Half the fighter’s level (rounding down). If the fighter chooses not to enter combat focus, she may choose to do so later, but only after scoring another successful attack. At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, a fighter must choose an ability from the list below. A fighter may only enter combat focus once per encounter. While in combat focus, they gain the benefits of all abilities chosen by the fighter. Each ability may only be taken once unless stated otherwise.
Able Defense (Ex): While in combat focus, if the fighter chooses to fight in total defense, she gains a +8 bonus to her amour class instead of a +4 bonus.
Armored Mobility (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter counts as wearing amour one category lighter for the purposes of movement. So a fighter in combat focus and in medium amour would count as wearing light amour for the purposes of movement.
Arrow-Snatcher (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter grants a +8 bonus to amour (rather than +4) to any allies being shot at with a ranged weapon should the arrow/bolt/thrown weapon etc pass through the fighter’s square.
Defensive Position (Ex): While in combat focus, any area threatened by the fighter counts as difficult terrain. A fighter may choose to apply this ability while enemies pass through his threatened squares, and retract it as allies pass through.
Fencer (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter may add his intelligence modifier to her amour class and to all melee damage rolls. In addition, the fighter also deals +1D6 Precision damage on every successful attack. The fighter only gains the benefits of this ability if wearing light amour and is wielding a light melee weapon (note, weapons which count as light for the purposes of weapon finesse also count as light for the purposes of this ability).
Hard-Hitter (Ex): While in combat focus and when making a full-attack action, a fighter may sacrifice all iterative attack she would normally gain. For each attack she sacrifices, she deals an additional +4 on all weapon damage rolls for the remainder of that turn.
Mage Amour (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter’s suffers no arcane spell failure from light amour. Unlike normal combat focus abilities, this ability can be taken more than once. If taken a second time, a fighter may choose to extend it’s effects to medium amour or shields. If taken a third time, it extends to both medium amour and shields.
Perfect Grip (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter reduces the penalty for wielding two weapons by 2 points. So a fighter wielding a weapon, a light weapon and has the two weapon feat, she has a penalty of -0/-0 on her attack rolls.
Psychic Combatant (Su): While in Combat Focus, a fighter gains a +4 circumstance bonus on any concentration checks to either enter Psionic focus, or remain in it. This ability can only be taken by fighters with a power point reserve.
Precise Shooting (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter shooting through allies or enemies counts as shooting through one less person than normal. The target, however, still gains her +4 bonus to amour class even if the number of people being fired through is reduced to zero using this ability.
Rapid Attack (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter gains an additional attack at her highest base attack bonus when making a full-attack action. Note, this ability can be combined with Hard-Hitter, in which case this additional attack counts as an iterative attack and must be sacrificed.
Riposte (Ex): While in combat focus, the fighter may make an attack of opportunity against any foe that makes a melee attack against her. Roll the result of the attack of opportunity before the opponent makes her attack roll. If a fighter has combat reflexes, she may make addition attacks of opportunity against other attacks as well provided she has enough attacks of opportunity remaining.
Role Model (Ex): While in combat focus, the fighter grants all allies within 30ft of her a +1 bonus (Max +5) to damage rolls for every successful hit the fighter makes in combat. However, any attack that the fighter makes which misses removes 1 point of this bonus, to a minimum of +0. Unlike other combat focus abilities, the effects of this ability remain until the end of the encounter, even if the fighter’s combat focus ends.
Shield Ally (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter using a shield can provide a +2 shield bonus to all allies within 5ft of him. Unlike normal shield bonuses, this ability stacks with any existing shield bonuses the fighter’s allies may have (even if from another shield or another fighter’s Shield Ally ability).
Will of Steel (Ex): While in combat focus, a fighter gains a +4 circumstance bonus on will saves against charms and compulsions.
Well…there we go.
Erm Nero are you talking about our Barbarian player and our group because he says he loves the way the new rage works?
I have seen you two discuss the mechanics of the barbarian once. I beleive his exact words were "Rage is still just a button to push". Said player has -never- liked the idea of a barbarian who chooses to rage.
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Erm Nero are you talking about our Barbarian player and our group because he says he loves the way the new rage works?I have seen you two discuss the mechanics of the barbarian once. I beleive his exact words were "Rage is still just a button to push". Said player has -never- liked the idea of a barbarian who chooses to rage.
I really dont think you should be quoting something from him unless you asked his permision first especially since from my discusions he says he licked the rage mechanics.
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especially since from my discusions he says he licked the rage mechanics.
Gross man, just gross
Anywho, I think you are being a bit one-sided in your mention of bloodlines. You never once mentioned the Arcane or Destined bloodline but then complained that you couldn't just have a sorcerer who just was sorcerer and not abysal sorcerer who's grandma liked the "badboys" but then don't even mention the two bloodlines that enable you to do that if it is your preference. Also the bloodlines that have heritage feats actually sinc up quite nicely. and allow for interesting story possibilities. Talk to my games Elemental bloodline sorcerous with fey heritage feats who was born from a long line of entirely human parents. You are pushing something onto the bloodlines that isn't actually there by exclusion.
I actually kinda understand where you're coming from with the ranger, and completely agree with you on the wizard. but the way you presented your argument for sorcerers bothered me.
Some of your stuff I agree with, some I don't. The half-orc point is one I agree with strongly. I don't usually play them, but when I do, they're usually from a genuine orc/human love story. Is that so hard to conceive? The whole "all half-orcs are ultimately rape-children" mentality annoys me.
Your argument about humans making better priests of elven gods than the elves rings hollow. By that logic, I could argue humans would make better paladins of Yondalla because they're stronger, even without the ability mod. Scaling up all the races is no big deal. Just house rule in an extra ability boost for spellscales, probably Int or an extra +2 Cha on top of their existing charisma boost.
The races that already get a charisma boost make perfect sense. Halflings are fey-kin, with one of their origin stories being that they're mutant brownies. Fairy blood is a classic explanation of magical abilities. Gnomes are ambiguous fairy-dwarf-elf beings established as having innate magical, sorcerous abilities every bit as much as spellscales.
On your dissection of sorcerer bloodlines, I think you're way, way too picky about which blood causes what. The fey lineage, for example. That was an option for sorcerer heritage way before Pathfinder, and it make a great deal of sense for a lot of characters anyways. Elves, gnomes, and halflings are pretty much fey-kin to begin with, so it is the most logical, traditional source for sorcery in those races. Trace dragon blood has always been the presumed source of sorcery for most members of the class, even if it doesn't affect the character all that much.
For the other bloodlines, particularly the ones you'd say cause some sort of different magic, who's to say there's only one way a bloodline can manifest itself? And for the ones you claim should provide more druidic powers, that's just silly. It's like saying celestial heritage should make you a cleric. Druid abilities aren't a bloodline trait. It's a faith thing. Meanwhile, I can easily envision fey heritage granting someone a slew of enchantment spells while someone who's kin to a fire elemental had better be chucking fireballs about.
Anywho, I think you are being a bit one-sided in your mention of bloodlines. You never once mentioned the Arcane or Destined bloodline [..]
Yes, he did. He said he liked them!
"Although I dislike most of the unusual heritages, I feel it is important to encourage what I do like about this class, which is the Arcane and Destined abilities. They don’t require unusual creatures doing things to your character’s ancestors and give the sorcerer a much needed [boost]."
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Just an observation, but: most of what I noticed the OP disliked was either fluff or material in non-ogl non-paizo products. Paizo is not only trying to 'fix' 3.5, but they also want to tie it together with their own world setting (imo). Fluff is bound to change, and as they're making their products, they can't bother to go through every WotC splatbook and try to make it fit with their world (imo). However, if you don't like something, change it, and bring it up to the DM (or not, if you are the DM).
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Anywho, I think you are being a bit one-sided in your mention of bloodlines. You never once mentioned the Arcane or Destined bloodline [..]Yes, he did. He said he liked them!
"Although I dislike most of the unusual heritages, I feel it is important to encourage what I do like about this class, which is the Arcane and Destined abilities. They don’t require unusual creatures doing things to your character’s ancestors and give the sorcerer a much needed [boost]."
hmph missed that whole line somehow, oopsie. Well then in that case it's not so bad, I just disagree with you on principle because I think that they are great.
I like the abberation origin for Sorcerers. I do agree that I dont like the "orc rape" thing though. I play a half-orc in a Ptolus game and he is the product of love, thank you very much!
Lewis
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I have two sorcerers in my playtest campaign, and what I love is that for more than just their spell selection these spellcasters perform and feel different. We have the OP's hated infernal bloodline, and we have an elemental bloodline one. Because of the way their at will powers work we have one that relies mostly on his spells and one that focuses heavily on using her at will power. I find it funny that someone would consider this a bad thing, or that since heritage feats exist in 3rd party material then having bloodlines is redundant, especially since they aren't. In most cases the heritage feats stack nicely with the bloodlines. And there is no forced flavor, in any game a DM can restrict it to just the arcane and destined bloodlines if they don't want sorcerer magic to come from ancestry. All in all, I can never really get behind someone who says take optional abilities away because they don't fit. Because being optional they aren't forced on you therefor they only don't fit if you force them on even though you don't want them.
I actually have a sorcerer that took Undead as his bloodline.
The character's parents were sorcerers who made a deal with some devil, but revoked the deal and instead of losing their souls, embodied them within phylacteries and hid them away.
Their off spring had some issues.
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I actually have a sorcerer that took Undead as his bloodline.
The character's parents were sorcerers who made a deal with some devil, but revoked the deal and instead of losing their souls, embodied them within phylacteries and hid them away.
Their off spring had some issues.
In otherwords your bloodline isn't determined by parents fornicating with things, it's determined by your characters story. The elemental bloodline sorcerer in our game with fey heritage came about from a tale of a boggle (fey) making a deal with a farmer so that he had good crops. No interspecies fornication whatsoever but the character has an elemental bloodline and fey heritage, both of which make sense if you read the characters backstory.
I have two sorcerers in my playtest campaign, and what I love is that for more than just their spell selection these spellcasters perform and feel different. We have the OP's hated infernal bloodline, and we have an elemental bloodline one. Because of the way their at will powers work we have one that relies mostly on his spells and one that focuses heavily on using her at will power. I find it funny that someone would consider this a bad thing, or that since heritage feats exist in 3rd party material then having bloodlines is redundant, especially since they aren't. In most cases the heritage feats stack nicely with the bloodlines. And there is no forced flavor, in any game a DM can restrict it to just the arcane and destined bloodlines if they don't want sorcerer magic to come from ancestry. All in all, I can never really get behind someone who says take optional abilities away because they don't fit. Because being optional they aren't forced on you therefor they only don't fit if you force them on even though you don't want them.
I would say the heritage feats do become a little redundent. At this moment in time, I'm looking at several of the draconic heritage feats. I could spend a feat to fly any round I cast a spell, or just take the Draconic Bloodline and gain wings. I would spend a feat for a claw attack, but then again, most Bloodline heritages gain this (including Draconic).
And while you could limit what bloodlines are avalible, it poses some problems. Have you ever banned a core class? Any cleric domains? Ranger's Favoured enemy or fighting style? Or even any of the Core races? Most DM's rarely ban any of these for the simple fact that they're in the core. I'm one in fact, I'm currently writing up a custom setting for a few one-off adventures and while banning a few non-core classes I feel don't fit, I've yet to ban a single core class.
And there is no forced flavor
I wouldn't quite say that. Again, using my own Spellscale Sorcerer as an example, I've had to explain countless times why I planned to take the Arcane Bloodline rather than Draconic. I was planning to take a few Draconic Heritage feats to represent minor heritage traits comming through, but just about every time I mention it, someone makes a comment which shows most at the table have assumed I'm using the Draconic Bloodline.
And there is no forced flavorI wouldn't quite say that. Again, using my own Spellscale...
Just goes to show what they know. It's better to surprise with new ideas than dull with old ones.
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As for the half-orc origin thing, I read through it and it didn't say that all were the result of such a pairing, as far as I can recall, but it's been generally understood, at least among the groups I've played with, that that was how most were likely conceived. Of course, that doesn't rule out the love story thing, either. Still, orcs are brutal, savage creatures by nature, so the more violent sort of origin isn't hard to believe.
As for the half-orc origin thing, I read through it and it didn't say that all were the result of such a pairing, as far as I can recall, but it's been generally understood, at least among the groups I've played with, that that was how most were likely conceived.
On the other hand, I've never seen a half-orc that was the "byproduct of violence" in the groups I've played with. YMMV.
Still, orcs are brutal, savage creatures by nature, so the more violent sort of origin isn't hard to believe.
Good thing that humans are so sweet and gentle by nature to provide a counterbalance to that. :)
I'm going with the half-elves and half-orcs are it's own race, but way in the past they were results of misbehavin'.
I would say the heritage feats do become a little redundent. At this moment in time, I'm looking at several of the draconic heritage feats. I could spend a feat to fly any round I cast a spell, or just take the Draconic Bloodline and gain wings. I would spend a feat for a claw attack, but then again, most Bloodline heritages gain this (including Draconic).
Remember, NONE of the Heritage Feats are OGC, thus the existing ones aren't usable by Paizo. Paizo's bloodlines for sorcerers are, I imagine, an attempt to expand on the PHB's "draconic heritage" mention for the class, and the idea behind Heritage Feats giving different powers.
...in any game a DM can restrict it to just the arcane and destined bloodlines if they don't want sorcerer magic to come from ancestry...
I'm not picking on lastknightleft here, but the above quote perfectly outlines one of my personal peeves with the way (seemingly) most players view sorcerers. Who's to say that a sorcerer with the Abberant bloodline actually has abberant blood?
Example 1: I have a PC Sorcerer with the Abberant bloodline. How did this come to pass? The character's mother was once a prisoner of an aboleth. During her years of servitude, in a desire to have "home grown" slaves, the aboleth encouraged it's captives to breed. Simply by close association with the aboleth during gestation the child, in a not-too-uncommon occurance, is born with sorcerous potential.
I mean really, an aboleth and a human? The physics alone boggle the mind!
Example 2: Is anyone familiar with the term Changeling? No, I'm not talking about White Wolf. I'm talking ancient Celtic (& Germanic, Norse, et al) mythology. (Incidentally the original incarnation of the kobold has roots in Germanic faerie lore.)
Human baby is stolen (or exchanged, with the fey leaving one of their own in the infant's place) and raised by the faerie-folk. This child, genetically human in every way, grows up in the magic-infused world of the fey. So, while born with no supernatural abilities, this child (or Changeling) obsorbs some of the essence of the fey realms. Upon returning to the world of his origin he boasts powers that his kin had absolutely no part in.
Now, the physics of a human and a nymph... not so hard to imagine. But the "fey" bloodline does not necessitate such carnal relations.
In Conclusion
A "bloodline" can be taken as a bit of a misnomer. It does not require that said sorcerer's ancestors had odd tastes, or some unfortunate violence thrust upon her (pardon the euphamism). A "bloodline", in many cases, can simply be the result of unusual environmental factors.
Use your imaginations in this. I'm certain that a similar background can be devised for any of the bloodlines presented in the Pathfinder RPG.
I'm going with the half-elves and half-orcs are it's own race, but way in the past they were results of misbehavin'.
Here is another example of how "half-breeds" could be nothing more than the result of unusual environmental factors.
In the Pathfinder setting of Golarion, there are elves who grew up among humans, the so-called Forlorn. I played in a campaign once where the opposite occured, human children being raised in elven lands. These people, while genetically still human, were refered to as "half-elves" by their human kin. As a result of their upbringing they had a very different view of the world from most humans. Nearly any aspect of the race can be rationalized to some degree. The resistance to sleep, for example. This could be a special kind of awareness that developed while dealing with the esoteric elven life-style.
A similar arguement can be made for those lovely half-orcs. Perhaps a tribe takes prisoners for slave labor. The children that grow up in such an environment would certainly not qualify as 'stable' in human lands. The kind of brutality the child had to endure at the hands of the orc whelps would leave more than just physical scars. Here is another situation where the racial abilities of the "half-orc" can be explained in a different way. Darkvision, while not something associated with the nearly blind race of humans, would become a necessary survival trait in the tribal slave pens. Perhaps the natural radiation from the Underdark alters the way the children develop visual senses while still in the womb.
Again, a little imagination goes a long way. This is, after all, Role-Playing we're talking about, no?
I would say the heritage feats do become a little redundent. At this moment in time, I'm looking at several of the draconic heritage feats. I could spend a feat to fly any round I cast a spell, or just take the Draconic Bloodline and gain wings. I would spend a feat for a claw attack, but then again, most Bloodline heritages gain this (including Draconic).Remember, NONE of the Heritage Feats are OGC, thus the existing ones aren't usable by Paizo. Paizo's bloodlines for sorcerers are, I imagine, an attempt to expand on the PHB's "draconic heritage" mention for the class, and the idea behind Heritage Feats giving different powers.
I'm not saying Paizo should be using these, I know Paizo can't use Non-OGL content. However, part of the point of Pathfinder RPG is to create a new 3.5 that is compatable with non-OGL content. As it stands, such feats are pointless since Bloodlines provide just as much, if not more power.
As for the half-orc origin thing, I read through it and it didn't say that all were the result of such a pairing, as far as I can recall, but it's been generally understood, at least among the groups I've played with, that that was how most were likely conceived. Of course, that doesn't rule out the love story thing, either. Still, orcs are brutal, savage creatures by nature, so the more violent sort of origin isn't hard to believe.
"Born from Orc and Human parents". Half-Orcs in Paizo are a result of mixed-racial breeding. Partly the reason why I feel so strongly about this is because the PHB version of this fluff does not say this. It does not even imply rape either. In fact, it implies that the Orc and Human villages where half-orcs come from are peaceful and actually trade with each other. All in all, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to ask that a small paragraph be altered to at least leave their origins a little more ambigious.
I'm not saying Paizo should be using these, I know Paizo can't use Non-OGL content. However, part of the point of Pathfinder RPG is to create a new 3.5 that is compatable with non-OGL content. As it stands, such feats are pointless since Bloodlines provide just as much, if not more power.
Only if you're limiting a sorcerer to picking heritage feats related to his bloodline.
There's nothing preventing you from having a draconic bloodline sorcerer taking abyssal heritage feats, or even a CE celestial bloodline sorcerer with abyssal heritage feats.
And unless I'm missing a majority of the Heritage Feats, there are none that specifically require a particular one besides the base "XXXX Heritage" feat. So it'd be a simple matter to not take those feats which overlap with the corresponding bloodline's abilities.
Though I'm not seeing too much overlap. Let's take a look at the Draconic Heritage feats and the Draconic Bloodline.
Breath Weapon:
Feat: Sacrifice a spell to deal 2d6 x spell level breath weapon damage. Either a 30-ft. cone or a 60-ft. line. Reflex save is DC 10 + spell level + Cha mod. Can be taken at 1st level.
Bloodline: 1/day at 9th, 2/day at 17th, 3/day at 20th, deal 1d6 x caster level breath weapon damage. Either a 30-ft. cone or 60-ft. line. Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 sorcerer level +Con mod. Initially gained at 9th level.
Analysis: The bloodline version clearly deals much more damage (20d6 at 20th level), but the Reflex save isn't clearly better (19 + Cha mod could be higher than 20 + Con mod), and the ranges are the same. The feat's main advantage is that it can be used much more often, though at the expense of spells.
Claws
Feat: Gain claw attack, damage is Small 1d4, Medium 1d6, Large 1d8. If you cast a spells with a casting time of 1 standard action (most of them...) you can make a single claw attack as a swift action. Can be taken at 1st level.
Bloodline: Gain claw attack, damage is Small 1d4, Medium 1d6. At 5th level claws are considered magic weapon for overcoming DR. At 7th damage increases to Small 1d6, Medium 1d8. At 11th, claws deal an additional 1d6 energy type per hit. Gained at 1st level.
Analysis: Bloodline is clearly better, though making a swift attack after casting a spell is nice.
Dragon Resistance I: Energy Resistance
Feat (Draconic Resistance): Resistance to associated energy type equal to 3x the number of draconic heritage feats you possess (i.e. 5 heritage feats = energy resistance 15). If your chosen dragon type doesn't have an energy associated with it, you gain no benefit. Can be taken at 1st level.
Bloodline: Energy resistance 5 in associated energy type. Increases to 10 at 9th level. Gained at 3rd level.
Analysis: I'd actually label the feat better here, since with only 2 feats you have a better resistance than the bloodline does until 9th level, by which time you'll probably have more than 3 heritage feats. The only downside is that they do take up feat slots, though that isn't as much of a concern for Pathfinder.
Dragon Resistance II: Natural Armor
Feat (Draconic Skin): Your natural armor bonus increases by 1. Can be taken at 1st level.
Bloodline: Gain +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, bonus increases to +4. Gained at 3rd level.
Analysis: The bloodline is clearly better, however I don't see either making the other obsolete, because they do stack (I think).
Wings
Feat: Cast an arcane spell with a casting time of 1 standard action and gain Fly 10 ft. x spell's level for remainder of turn. No maneuverability class stated. Can be taken at 1st level.
Bloodline: Grow wings as a standard action, granting Fly 60 ft. (average). Can be dismissed as a free action. Gained at 15th level.
Analysis: Either one has uses. The feat can grant up to 90 feet of fly speed, but it only lasts until the end of the turn you've already spent a standard action in. You can also get access to it far earlier than the bloodline's flight. The bloodline's wings are better by virtue of lasting as long as you want, and can be dismissed and returned without spending more spells. I'd give a slight edge to the bloodline, though I wouldn't turn away the feat even with the bloodline.
Initial and Capstone Draconic Ability
Feat (Draconic Heritage): Gain dragonblood subtype, choosing dragon type. Gain related skill as class skill. Gain a bonus to saving throws against magic sleep and paralysis effects and save against related energy type equal to the number of draconic heritage feats you have. Can be taken at 1st level.
Feat (Draconic Legacy): Gain a number of spells to your list of spells known related to your dragon. Requires at least 4 other draconic heritage feats. Spells are gained at appropriate levels.
Bloodline: Gain Perception as class skill and various dragon-theme related spells of 1st-9th levels. Gain immunity to paralysis, sleep, and related energy type. Gain blindsnese 60 feet. Gained at 1st and 20th level.
Analysis: This is another swingy one. The Draconic Heritage feat is nice, granting a bonus on saves equal to the number of draconic heritage feats, and is gained as early as 1st level. By 20th the bloodline capstone trumps it, though having the feat until then is very good. The Draconic Legacy feat doesn't provide as many bonus spells as the bloodine, but there's little to no overlap in gained spells, so neither invalidates the other.
And that's only 7 out of 12 Draconic Heritage feats, leaving 5 feats which are not covered by the Pathfinder Sorcerer Bloodline. And even among those feats which are mimicked by the bloodline, it's not exact nor is it always a case of the bloodline being better.
I mean really, an aboleth and a human? The physics alone boggle the mind!
Alas, anime disagrees with you.
Some of your stuff I agree with, some I don't. The half-orc point is one I agree with strongly. I don't usually play them, but when I do, they're usually from a genuine orc/human love story. Is that so hard to conceive? The whole "all half-orcs are ultimately rape-children" mentality annoys me.
It ultimately depends on the perspective of a given person towards Orcs and Half-Orcs. Do they view Orcs as Tolkien originally depicted them - rampaging engines of destruction and a perversion of the natural order? Or do they view them as a troubled but viable race of sentient beings that have the potential to make their own way in the world without defaulting to committing horrific acts of evil?
Not everyone is so easily accepting of the positive depictions of Orcs, Half-Orcs, and Goblins that have been presented in games such as Eberron and World of Warcraft.
I vehemently disagree that the Universalist wizard is that much better than the specialist wizards. I have only two problems with the generalist wizard: he can pick bonus spells from any school and his capstone ability. Other than that he lacks a specialization bonus that the others gain and, even if you specialize, at any time you could choose to prepare any spell of your choice from your prohibited school at the cost of your special power - while somewhat punitive, it hardly strikes me as a harsh penalty.
I feel the generalist wizard's powers bring some unique and fun powers to the mix and would hate to see them go.
Some of your stuff I agree with, some I don't. The half-orc point is one I agree with strongly. I don't usually play them, but when I do, they're usually from a genuine orc/human love story. Is that so hard to conceive? The whole "all half-orcs are ultimately rape-children" mentality annoys me.It ultimately depends on the perspective of a given person towards Orcs and Half-Orcs. Do they view Orcs as Tolkien originally depicted them - rampaging engines of destruction and a perversion of the natural order? Or do they view them as a troubled but viable race of sentient beings that have the potential to make their own way in the world without defaulting to committing horrific acts of evil?
Not everyone is so easily accepting of the positive depictions of Orcs, Half-Orcs, and Goblins that have been presented in games such as Eberron and World of Warcraft.
I never did like making the orcs pure evil as a whole. They're a brutally savage culture valuing strength over all else, and their leaders are a bunch of war mongers, but that doesn't make them mindless thralls of darkness. Every sentient race needs exceptions, dynamics, or you just have another case of shallow monsters. There are enough of those. If I simply wanted "monster," I'd go with a zombie horde, a bunch of vermin, an ooze, or any of hundreds of other critters. Orcs are supposed to have some base level of reason in them, and a handful who reject their warlike ways is a good thing. It builds them up as an intelligent race, no matter how savage. Of course, most of the orcs who prefer flowers to axes probably get gutted and put on display as a warning to their brethren, but a few getting away and actually falling in love and starting a family (before getting cut down by intolerant humans) makes for a great backstory for a half-orc.
Those who reject the possibility of a positive depiction of orcs is just shoving a race that's supposed to be sentient into an overly tight mold and blocking out lots of good character and story options. Same goes for goblins, kobolds, and all of the intelligent savage races.
I'm not saying Paizo should be using these, I know Paizo can't use Non-OGL content. However, part of the point of Pathfinder RPG is to create a new 3.5 that is compatable with non-OGL content. As it stands, such feats are pointless since Bloodlines provide just as much, if not more power.Only if you're limiting a sorcerer to picking heritage feats related to his bloodline.
There's nothing preventing you from having a draconic bloodline sorcerer taking abyssal heritage feats, or even a CE celestial bloodline sorcerer with abyssal heritage feats.
And unless I'm missing a majority of the Heritage Feats, there are none that specifically require a particular one besides the base "XXXX Heritage" feat. So it'd be a simple matter to not take those feats which overlap with the corresponding bloodline's abilities.
Though I'm not seeing too much overlap. Let's take a look at the Draconic Heritage feats and the Draconic Bloodline.
Breath Weapon:
Feat: Sacrifice a spell to deal 2d6 x spell level breath weapon damage. Either a 30-ft. cone or a 60-ft. line. Reflex save is DC 10 + spell level + Cha mod. Can be taken at 1st level.Bloodline: 1/day at 9th, 2/day at 17th, 3/day at 20th, deal 1d6 x caster level breath weapon damage. Either a 30-ft. cone or 60-ft. line. Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 sorcerer level +Con mod. Initially gained at 9th level.
Analysis: The bloodline version clearly deals much more damage (20d6 at 20th level), but the Reflex save isn't clearly better (19 + Cha mod could be higher than 20 + Con mod), and the ranges are the same. The feat's main advantage is that it can be used much more often, though at the expense of spells.
Claws
Feat: Gain claw attack, damage is Small 1d4, Medium 1d6, Large 1d8. If you cast a spells with a casting time of 1 standard action (most of them...) you can make a single claw attack as a swift action. Can be taken at 1st level.Bloodline: Gain claw attack, damage is Small 1d4, Medium 1d6. At 5th level...
Breath Weapon:
I would rule the bloodline version superior by far, since it doesn't require the expenditure of high level spells to have a decent DC (as appropriate for the Sorcerer's level). Sorcerers have better things to do with their high level spells.Claws:
the best benifits of the claws are gained automatically with the bloodline ability. Claws work well since they can deliver touch attacks (without the AOO) and can act as a last resort backup weapon. The addeded benifit of the swift attack isn't that great unless you plan to go into melee combat alot (which is bad for a sorcerer). Are you really willing to risk attacks to deal a lousy 1D6 (plus strength)while you cast?
Wings:
Wings allow you to stay in the air for rounds on end. The Heritage feat lets you do it only if you have spells to cast. Also, with Pathfinder, Perfect Mauvourbility is pointless.
Resistance:
If you're honestly telling me you would take a feat that becomes 100% obsolute at higher levels you'll be the first. If people really took feats which became useless later there would be no need to rewrite toughness (since +3 hit points is handy at first level).
Natural Armour:
Nammed bonuses of the same type do no stack. Even if they did, the feat would still be useless since the feat "Improved Natural Armour" does the same thing as well.
Capstone ability:
It may just be personal preference, but I'd consider immunity to paralysis and sleep, not to mention blindsense to be better than gaining four spells. Four spells I'd add, that you do not pick, they're determined by your heritage.
So yes...the feats -do- become fairly obsolute compared to the bloodline abilities.
Your argument about humans making better priests of elven gods than the elves rings hollow. By that logic, I could argue humans would make better paladins of Yondalla because they're stronger, even without the ability mod.
So you're saying by my logic a human would be a better paladin because he can fight better? Well...yeah, a paladins main role both IG and in their church is fighting evil. How powerful their connection to the gods though (determined IG by Charisma and Wisdom) wouldn't be better (at least until Pathfinder RPG).
Theres a reason no core race gains a wisdom bonus. Now a race like Aasimiers I could understand gaining a wisdom bonus (since they -are- supposed to be more closly connected to the planes) but a human? Besides, humans are powerful enough as it is, in the right hands that bonus feat is a nightmare.