Most of the basic races have a racial ability, while good for several other classes, that is useless for several other classes. Abilities like Elven Magic, which is good for many of the significant spellcasters, but isn't really worth anything to the non-casting classes or the classes that are not likely to deal with spell resistance (like ranger or paladin).
Either using one of these abilities either requires you negate the more powerful class abilities or class abilities that make the abilities useless.
Some of these just pile on benefits for going with one class, beyond what I feel is necessary.
For example, an elven wizard gets the +2 intelligence bonus, wizard flavored class bonus, and the elven magic ability. On the other hand an, lets say, an elven paladin (or fighter, barbarian, and so on) only really benefits the +2 intelligence bonus bonus (and much less so than the wizard benefits from it).
While I agree with giving bonuses for going with certain classes, it does seem to get too much. I would rather see most racial abilities (exception for favored classes) be able to benefit all classes in some way, or at least give alternate racial abilities that replace ones that don't do characters any good.
"Useless to some" racial abilities.
Dwarf: Slow and Steady
Elf: Elven Magic
Halfling: Fearless
Human: Weapon Training
My first idea would be to add something like "choose an exotic weapon, you treat that weapon as a martial weapon."
It gives the benefit to classes proficient with martial weapons (it should be noted that this also makes easier it classes without the proficiency to get the proficiency by taking a feat). I am concerned in practice that it means that they will rely on the exotic weapons, like how I'm concerned that human wizards will all eschew the quarterstaff and crossbow for longswords and longbows, but I'm not going to worry about that here.
Edit: I should note that my preference for the racial weapons to let humans take some cultural weapon that they wouldn't normally take (bladed scarf, monk weapons, Shoanti bola, ...) rather than upgrading every longsword wielder to bastard sword.
Edit2: So I guess my more complicated answer, that I feel would be "better" would be to add "Choose a cultural exotic weapon, you treat that weapon as a martial weapon." But that would also mean going though and make sure to declare cultural weapons as cultural.
While I agree that all it does is strengthen stereotyped roles, I'm curious (in a positive, 'let's see what we can come with' way) what you would suggest as additional/alternate tag-traits?
Specifically, how would you handle Humans, who are supposed to be the norm and the most flexible?
As I've said in other posts...
Human Bastard Sword FTW
How about halfling weapon familiarity - slings and any weapon with the word 'halfling' in it? Every class is familiar with the sling to begin with.
Poor halflings...
While, I agree that is a bit sad. There is always an off chance that some future class will not have sling. In that case a halfling of the class would still know sling.
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While I agree that all it does is strengthen stereotyped roles, I'm curious (in a positive, 'let's see what we can come with' way) what you would suggest as additional/alternate tag-traits?
Specifically, how would you handle Humans, who are supposed to be the norm and the most flexible?
I was always partial to worlds that all humans had died out... if I wanted to fight humans I'd play Risk... but that's just me
How about halfling weapon familiarity - slings and any weapon with the word 'halfling' in it? Every class is familiar with the sling to begin with.
Poor halflings...
Well, wizards aren't proficient with slings...
Also I kind of just assumed there would actually be halfling weapons at some point. Without them though, this ability is kind of pointless for almost every class.
Edit:Again it being a martial weapon would be a boon for practically every class as Exotic Weapon Proficiency has a BAB requirement of +1 while Martial Weapon Proficiency does not.
Although, I do know of one full bab class that doesn't have proficiency with martial weapons...
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My first idea would be to add something like "choose an exotic weapon, you treat that weapon as a martial weapon."
I think a better idea would be to let Humans who choose the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger & Paladin classes to choose an exotic weapon instead of a martial one. The four classes that I listed all get nerfed by this Racial Ability.
It gives the benefit to classes proficient with martial weapons (it should be noted that this also makes easier it classes without the proficiency to get the proficiency by taking a feat). I am concerned in practice that it means that they will rely on the exotic weapons, like how I'm concerned that human wizards will all eschew the quarterstaff and crossbow for longswords and longbows, but I'm not going to worry about that here.
I can understand exactly what your worried about. I hope not to see it at my table when I go to run my PF Beta game in October. Perhaps a better choice would've been to give HUMANS a +1 on Attack & Damage Rolls with a designated weapon that they are already proficient with. Maybe even a +2. This might've better shown the flexibilty of HUMANS without giving the PCs access to weapons that'll alter the feel of certain classes.
Edit: I should note that my preference for the racial weapons to let humans take some cultural weapon that they wouldn't normally take (bladed scarf, monk weapons, Shoanti bola, ...) rather than upgrading every longsword wielder to bastard sword.
I don't agree with this. Mainly, because I don't feel that a possible 2 extra damage is all that important. Some people feel that it is. I hope I never will.
Edit2: So I guess my more complicated answer, that I feel would be "better" would be to add "Choose a cultural exotic weapon, you treat that weapon as a martial weapon." But that would also mean going though and make sure to declare cultural weapons as cultural.
While I would like to see some weapons designated as cultural. I feel this is best represented in Setting books. I hope never to see it in a set of core rules.
How about halfling weapon familiarity - slings and any weapon with the word 'halfling' in it? Every class is familiar with the sling to begin with.
Poor halflings...
Interestingly, wizards do not have sling proficiency, which seemed sort of weird to me for some reason. I mean, slings are so... *simple*...
Also, there are no "halfling" titled weapons.
-Steve
I think a better idea would be to let Humans who choose the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger & Paladin classes to choose an exotic weapon instead of a martial one. The four classes that I listed all get nerfed by this Racial Ability.
Seriously?
I can see this now. An unstoppable army of human lvl 1 fighter NPCs all armed with spiked chains, and trained in the trip feat....
-Steve
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I can see this now. An unstoppable army of human lvl 1 fighter NPCs all armed with spiked chains, and trained in the trip feat....
-Steve
Good thing I'm the GM isn't it.
Also... like I posted a little ways down in that previous post of mine maybe Humans should've gotten a +1 Attack/Damage Bonus to a weapon they're already proficient with. The more I think about this the more I like it.
I can see this now. An unstoppable army of human lvl 1 fighter NPCs all armed with spiked chains, and trained in the trip feat....
-Steve
Good thing I'm the GM isn't it.
Also... like I posted a little ways down in that previous post of mine maybe Humans should've gotten a +1 Attack/Damage Bonus to a weapon they're already proficient with. The more I think about this the more I like it.
That seems extremely powerful for melee classes, and I'm not sure if it's appropriate. You're talking a +1 across the board for 1 weapon, and at lower levels, that can make things very one-sided.
Reverse the situation, for example. You put the PCs up against human NPC guards holding greatswords at lvl 1. That's a recipe for a TPK.
-Steve
My first idea would be to add something like "choose an exotic weapon, you treat that weapon as a martial weapon."I think a better idea would be to let Humans who choose the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger & Paladin classes to choose an exotic weapon instead of a martial one. The four classes that I listed all get nerfed by this Racial Ability.
I thought that is what my suggestion basically did, just without naming the classes. Am I missing something?
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Normally, my suggestion when these issues come up is to make the choice that takes advantage of the bonus, or live without it. This looks like a bigger problem, though. Multiple classes and all races are affected by this. In particular, the racial weapon proficiency rule needs to be parallel across all the races. A group of weapons is considered proficient, an exotic weapon is considered martial, or both, but the rules should be the same for each race with the weapons in question. Even if fighting classed humans are given a choice of exotic weapon, I wouldn't fear armies with silly weapons. Like KissMeDarkly said, the DM is in control of that. Most DMs I've encountered in recent years really hate most of the exotic weapons out there. If you want to play a spiked chain fighter, you'll do it anyway.
But as for me:
Human Bastard Sword FTW
While I agree with giving bonuses for going with certain classes, it does seem to get too much. I would rather see most racial abilities (exception for favored classes) be able to benefit all classes in some way, or at least give alternate racial abilities that replace ones that don't do characters any good.
I think the whole assumption that every race should be equally good at every class is flawed. Races are different and will be stronger at certain things because of those differences. That makes sense and it adds flavor to the races. Also, while individual racial abilities might benefit a class more than another the net sum of the abilities generally is balanced for martial/ casting.
Dwarves - CON benefits every class. Slow and steady... now rogues and wizards can truly use strength as a dump stat. Hearty, gives dwarves bonuses against many things wizards are weak at. Weapon proficiency? A wizard with a battleaxe :) Cool!
Elves - The DEX benefits all classes and martial classes more than casters. INT benefits all classes with skill points and bonus languages. Immunities help martial classes more than casters because these are almost all WILL save based effects. Longbow and Longsword proficiency helps rogues primarily (wizards won't use them much and martial characters have them. Keen senses benefits rogues and martial characters most. Low light vision benefits rogues and martial characters most. Heck personally I like elves as rangers and rogues better than as wizards.
Almost all races have trade offs between the melee and caster classes. Yes some are better at a few specific classes but that's not a bug, that's a feature.
Technically Slow and Steady was just there for the dwarven monk really. It probably should not have been there or at least, it belong on the list the least.
On the others, all the abilities you are listing still benefit all races in some way. Unless one class is being targeted more by fortitude saves, in general, it helps both classes equally. A fighter might see more saves against poison because they are on the front line and wizards might see it more because attacks are being coordinated by an intelligent force. Same for will saves.
I'm not saying that I want all races to be equally good for each class.
I'm just saying that I didn't think that some of the abilities only really working for a bit more than half the classes doesn't make me happy (and in most cases, it isn't really necessary to make that class the better choice). I would like to not be able to leave off racial abilities on my character sheet because they don't actually do anything.
Here, I care less about that the ability added is useful. I just don't want abilities to be useless.
Slow and Steady might also give a +1 (or 2, 3, or whatever) to Strength for determining carrying capicity.
Elven Magic might then give a minor spell like ability (like mage hand or something).
Both would make it useful for nearly every class.
I'm just saying that I didn't think that some of the abilities only really working for a bit more than half the classes doesn't make me happy (and in most cases, it isn't really necessary to make that class the better choice). I would like to not be able to leave off racial abilities on my character sheet because they don't actually do anything.
The thing is, every single ability for every race is more useful to one class or another. You would eliminate Weapon Familiarity (useless to martial characters and most casters), Darkvision and Low Light vision (Not really useful to casters), Hatred, Defensive Training, Elven Magic, Gnome Magic... All of the things that make the races distinct are of limited value to half the classes, mainly they are either useful for caster classes or for martial classes but not both.
As for your example, perhaps the monk doesn't benefit from the armor with slow and steady but he can certainly benefit from the load carrying capacity. Monks benefit significantly from the defensive training, hatred, and darkvision. Also, the WIS and CON racial ability modifiers are excellent for monks... all in all dwarves should make great monks, don't knock the combo because one racial ability is of limited value.
The thing is, every single ability for every race is more useful to one class or another. You would eliminate Weapon Familiarity (useless to martial characters and most casters), Darkvision and Low Light vision (Not really useful to casters), Hatred, Defensive Training, Elven Magic, Gnome Magic... All of the things that make the races distinct are of limited value to half the classes, mainly they are either useful for caster classes or for martial classes but not both.
Yet, all you have listed (aside from Elven Magic) are of some use to every class to that comes to mind.
So, you know, I would eliminate Elven Magic at most and find your statement that I would eliminate a significant section of racial abilities silly.
As for your example, perhaps the monk doesn't benefit from the armor with slow and steady but he can certainly benefit from the load carrying capacity. Monks benefit significantly from the defensive training, hatred, and darkvision. Also, the WIS and CON racial ability modifiers are excellent for monks... all in all dwarves should make great monks, don't knock the combo because one racial ability is of limited value.
If he decides that he doesn't really care for the monk AC bonus, fast movement, or flurry of blows.
Yet, all you have listed (aside from Elven Magic) are of some use to every class to that comes to mind.
So, you know, I would eliminate Elven Magic at most and find your statement that I would eliminate a significant section of racial abilities silly.
It seems you use the phrase "of some use", to differentiate between abilities that are merely mostly useless from those that are totally useless... I think this is splitting hairs. Defensive training (versus giants) is only marginally more useful to a wizard character than Elven Magic is to a fighter. Hatred, probably even less useful than defensive training, particularly at level 5+. As I pointed out Weapon Familiarity is nearly useless or completely useless to almost all classes.
The question I think is much more relevant is "Is this race viable for most (75%+) of the classes in the game"? Maybe individual abilities are more or less useful for various classes but is the total package interesting for any class. For elves it is an undeniably attractive race for almost every class, perhaps not great for barbarians or monks but otherwise pretty good. Dwarves are also a good all around race and are appealing for any class.
What are some race/ class combinations that you find unappetizing? I think the dwarf/ monk combo is actually quite decent. Elf/ Paladin... Maybe not the best combo but it's kind of counter to the elf's nature anyways. This makes for good role playing but good role playing often runs counter to optimal game mechanics.
It seems you use the phrase "of some use", to differentiate between abilities that are merely mostly useless from those that are totally useless... I think this is splitting hairs. Defensive training (versus giants) is only marginally more useful to a wizard character than Elven Magic is to a fighter. Hatred, probably even less useful than defensive training, particularly at level 5+. As I pointed out Weapon Familiarity is nearly useless or completely useless to almost all classes.
I don't really see it as splitting hairs. I don't like abilities that only benefit one set of classes. I prefer abilities that work better for one set of classes.
With the current set of weapons in the Beta, yes, weapon familiarity is not a help to characters proficient with martial weapons. However, I'm assuming that elven and halfling weapons would appear at some point to make those abilities do something.
I tend to disagree with you on the difference in usefulness of these abilities. I feel that the +4 AC versus giants is more useful than you are making it out to be (or that you are for some reason imagining elven magic is much more useful to fighters somehow).
Hatred still gives +1 to attacks for spellcasters rays and touch attacks. While I believe the ability is weak to begin with. I don't see it being vastly inferior to warriors using it.
What are some race/ class combinations that you find unappetizing?
I don't really find any race/class combinations unappetizing.
I don't really find any race/class combinations unappetizing.
Then what is the problem? Who cares if one specific ability is catered towards one class or another as long as the race as a whole is workable for a given class?
I don't really find any race/class combinations unappetizing.Then what is the problem? Who cares if one specific ability is catered towards one class or another as long as the race as a whole is workable for a given class?
I just don't like abilities that don't do anything.
I don't like elves having a good at magic ability when that means that elven fighters (and so on) are good at magic apparently, but just have no capability to use magic, understand magic, or anything else that might make you say that the elven fighter is actually good at magic.
I just don't like abilities that don't do anything.
I don't like elves having a good at magic ability when that means that elven fighters (and so on) are good at magic apparently, but just have no capability to use magic, understand magic, or anything else that might make you say that the elven fighter is actually good at magic.
I just don't like monks. That doesn't mean I lobby to have them removed from the game.
I just don't like monks. That doesn't mean I lobby to have them removed from the game.
I don't really think that these situations are equivalent.
I'm just suggestion that these abilities can be improved, not completely eliminated.
I don't really think that these situations are equivalent.
No, not at all. I'm just pointing out that just because you don't like something doesn't justify changing the rules.
I'm just suggestion that these abilities can be improved, not completely eliminated.
I understand this. I just don't get why having some abilities help some classes more and other abilities that help other classes more doesn't work for you? You seem to feel that all the races are good at most classes, it just seems that you have this niggling personal dislike for the way they get there.
It's the sum of the abilities that matters, not the individual abilities.
I understand this. I just don't get why having some abilities help some classes more and other abilities that help other classes more doesn't work for you? You seem to feel that all the races are good at most classes, it just seems that you have this niggling personal dislike for the way they get there.
It's the sum of the abilities that matters, not the individual abilities.
It is just because those abilities apparently apply to all of a race, but only help about half the classes.
I do feel that all races are good at most classes, but what I'm asking for is not to make them vastly better for those classes. All I want is that any single ability give some benefit. Any benefit. This does not mean that
If you are going to have an ability saying that all elves are good at magic, I don't want the fighters to be sitting around with some innate talent for magic that is apparently invisible to the world.
I would feel the same way if a race had two abilities, one that only benefit spellcasters and another that only benefited martial classes. Saying that an entire race is both innately good at magic and innately good at fighting, but overall that is not the way it turns out. Almost all the characters you see from that race will even show any additional skill with fighting or magic.
Currently, all elves have a natural skill with magic. Except, they all don't. That is the problem I have with these abilities.
I don't really find any race/class combinations unappetizing.Then what is the problem? Who cares if one specific ability is catered towards one class or another as long as the race as a whole is workable for a given class?I just don't like abilities that don't do anything.
I don't like elves having a good at magic ability when that means that elven fighters (and so on) are good at magic apparently, but just have no capability to use magic, understand magic, or anything else that might make you say that the elven fighter is actually good at magic.
Actually, per the changes in the skill system, anyone can take ranks in Use Magic Device. Meaning the skill is applicable to any elf that can use a scroll.
-Steve
It is just because those abilities apparently apply to all of a race, but only help about half the classes.
I do feel that all races are good at most classes, but what I'm asking for is not to make them vastly better for those classes. All I want is that any single ability give some benefit. Any benefit. This does not mean that
If you are going to have an ability saying that all elves are good at magic, I don't want the fighters to be sitting around with some innate talent for magic that is apparently invisible to the world.
I would feel the same way if a race had two abilities, one that only benefit spellcasters and another that only benefited martial classes. Saying that an entire race is both innately good at magic and innately good at fighting, but overall that is not the way it turns out. Almost all the characters you see from that race will even show any additional skill with fighting or magic.
Currently, all elves have a natural skill with magic. Except, they all don't. That is the problem I have with these abilities.
Well I'm not going to try and argue you into agreeing with me. I just don't see eye to eye with you on this issue.
One thing I wouldn't mind seeing I mentioned in another thread. Rather than have all of the racial traits be a grab bag where you get all or none, maybe the racial traits system should be replaced with a cafeteria style system. I don't have time to lay out the idea just now but I think it's something you might be more inclined to agree with.
I don't really find any race/class combinations unappetizing.Then what is the problem? Who cares if one specific ability is catered towards one class or another as long as the race as a whole is workable for a given class?I just don't like abilities that don't do anything.
I don't like elves having a good at magic ability when that means that elven fighters (and so on) are good at magic apparently, but just have no capability to use magic, understand magic, or anything else that might make you say that the elven fighter is actually good at magic.Actually, per the changes in the skill system, anyone can take ranks in Use Magic Device. Meaning the skill is applicable to any elf that can use a scroll.
-Steve
I don't think so. As far as I know Spell Penetration does not work with scrolls so I think that Elven Magic would not work with casting scrolls.
I think it would work with staffs though. Although I'm not exactly sure what the caster level of the staff is when you don't have a caster level. If it is minimum caster level for the spell, I'm doubtful the effect +2 vs spell resistance will help. It probably would help slightly though. Although that is very specific for what kind of character benefits (Use Magic Device with staff that will benefit from the elven magic).
Well I'm not going to try and argue you into agreeing with me. I just don't see eye to eye with you on this issue.
One thing I wouldn't mind seeing I mentioned in another thread. Rather than have all of the racial traits be a grab bag where you get all or none, maybe the racial traits system should be replaced with a cafeteria style system. I don't have time to lay out the idea just now but I think it's something you might be more inclined to agree with.
Maybe. I'm not exactly sure what you have been arguing with for a while.
Overall though, I think that you are thinking that I'm having problems with the existing system that I really don't have. I mean, of the four items I listed at the beginning of the thread, the "major" ones would be elven magic and human weapon training. While a grab bag system might let me avoid things like this, I think it is quite a bit excessive to solve this "problem."