I house-ruled the Artificer in this way: adding the Artefice Domain at 1st level (as a cleric of equal level) and tweaking the Craft Reserve points for Item Creations (since there are no more XP penalties for making magic items, I use these points as "virtual gp", multiplying the indicated value by 2,5). Also, I changed the Retain Essence ability in this way: the value that is added to the Craft Reserve is one-half the cost to create the item. So, a full(50 charges) Wand of Summon Monster IV (21000 gp, cost to create 10500) adds 5250 "virtual gp" to the Craft Reserve points. I have to actually playtest my modifications (nobody has taken an Artificer since PFRPG came out), but it can be a starting point...
that is if they could do it, not sure if they can, due to legal stuff
im curious what if anything Paizo would modify
the artificer from eberron is my favorite class to play, i like its versatility, item creation ability, the buffs it can add to party members & the homunculus's are neat
the one downside to them is their infusion list is pretty short, but that might be a balance factor for them, but it would be nice if more were added (one of my many projects was adding spells from the spell compendium to their infusion list)
The Artificer is thoroughly broken and is hard to fix.
Broken in what way? Artificer scrolls? I just rule that they are a special type that only the Artificer can read. Be strict in employing Use Magic Device. Without more detail there's not much to comment on.
One particular thing to note is the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability; you can throw around Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, etc. spells like crazy.
The main limitations are money and time, but there are lots of ways to make money.
Well, it was just to leave the intended "flavor" of the class (tinkering with magic items and being able to make them more easily). By the way, I wasn't able to find the generic rules (bonus squared times 2000 gp, etc.) for creating magic items (along with body slot affinity, etc.) in the Beta Rules. Are they present only in the Alpha release (I already have the Alpha release 3, so this is not a problem for me, just for clarification...) ?
The Artificer is thoroughly broken and is hard to fix.that is if they could do it, not sure if they can, due to legal stuff
im curious what if anything Paizo would modify
the artificer from eberron is my favorite class to play, i like its versatility, item creation ability, the buffs it can add to party members & the homunculus's are neat
the one downside to them is their infusion list is pretty short, but that might be a balance factor for them, but it would be nice if more were added (one of my many projects was adding spells from the spell compendium to their infusion list)
Mongoose Publishing has a very different form of Artificer. I've seen their "Power Classes VI - Artificer" booklet and it's nothing at all like the Artificer class presented in the Eberron Campaign Setting - which I agree has some serious power-balance issues (5 feats AT FIRST LEVEL?! - to name one such problem).
It could be more suited to a common medieval fantasy setting, I've not looked into it too closely to know how well it would (or wouldn't) work to really say for sure. But it is something to look at. It very well may be OGL, or it could be possible to get permission from Mongoose to use the class if it would fit & work well.
Well, actually is 5 features at 1st level, not feats... of these, only one is a bonus Feat. The Bard has 7 features at 1st level. Not counting that both Artificer and Bard have a spell list (but very thin...)
I'm not an Artificer fan myself, but the class is not so powerful compared to the others (it's similar to a Bard, but tinkers better with magic items and boosts constructs instead of living characters). Regarding Metamagic Spell Trigger, sure, it could be a powerful ability... if the Artificer is optimized in order to use it. Taking metamagic feats is certainly possible (some infusions are quite powerful if combined with the right Metamagic feats), but draining a wand or a staff with a combo like that mentioned before will deplete the magic item in few shots. And since only a staff could benefit from the Artificer's caster level, most of these powerful shots (from a wand, for example) would not be effectively so very powerful...
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Well, actually is 5 features at 1st level, not feats... of these, only one is a bonus Feat. The Bard has 7 features at 1st level. Not counting that both Artificer and Bard have a spell list (but very thin...)
I'm not an Artificer fan myself, but the class is not so powerful compared to the others (it's similar to a Bard, but tinkers better with magic items and boosts constructs instead of living characters). Regarding Metamagic Spell Trigger, sure, it could be a powerful ability... if the Artificer is optimized in order to use it. Taking metamagic feats is certainly possible (some infusions are quite powerful if combined with the right Metamagic feats), but draining a wand or a staff with a combo like that mentioned before will deplete the magic item in few shots. And since only a staff could benefit from the Artificer's caster level, most of these powerful shots (from a wand, for example) would not be effectively so very powerful...
The problem with the Artificer is that they can use their retain essence and crafting pool to make expendable items without limits. Couple that with Action points, dual wand wielding, and metamagic spell triggers and you get some of the most broken combos in the game. One of the players I was in a game with had an artificer who was doing close to 100d6 damage using scorching ray wands and those combos at right around 12th level. Since XP was never a problem in item creation due to feats that reduce the cost and the ability to draw XP off of items you find, the excess charges that an Artificer burned through to do those combos wasn't relevant to game play.
Artificers are the only non ToB class banned from my home games.
You can create a variant of the Artificer with a Runemaster.
Which, of course, would fit the Runelords storyarc.
I actually made a class like that.
Basically that's a crafter, who creates items and carves runes instead of casting spells.
The runes are a mix of enchantements (like infusions) and mythical symbols (like in norse folklore) used for augments and divinations.
That combo from the wands is incredible, but...
Are you sure that you can apply all that Metamagic feats contemporaneously? Because the Metamagic Spell Trigger speaks of applying "a metamagic feat you know" to a spell trigger item. It's not clear if you can ONLY apply a single metamagic feat or not... and that would be a simple way to negate such a huge damage with such a (relatively) low level character.
I must however agree that the Retain Essence and the Craft Reserve are abilities that can be easily eliminated without weakening the class too much, with the current rules. As stated before, these were only suggestions I myself could not test at the moment (no players of mine seem interested with the Artificer...)
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The problem with the Artificer is that they can use their retain essence and crafting pool to make expendable items without limits. Couple that with Action points, dual wand wielding, and metamagic spell triggers and you get some of the most broken combos in the game. One of the players I was in a game with had an artificer who was doing close to 100d6 damage using scorching ray wands and those combos at right around 12th level. Since XP was never a problem in item creation due to feats that reduce the cost and the ability to draw XP off of items you find, the excess charges that an Artificer burned through to do those combos wasn't relevant to game play.
Artificers are the only non ToB class banned from my home games.
1. Just out of curiosity how did he manage that kind of damage from a pair of wands? As far as I know casting a wand spell is still a standard action.
2. If you brought over the class to pathfinder, one could eliminate the second problem by simply eliminating the Craft Pool and Retain Essence features which would no longer be needed anyway. At that point it's just a matter of keeping your characters from getting too rich too quickly. The last point would hold true even if you ran it in standard 3.5 as is. Using all those Artificer tricks till costs, and the feats which reduce cost only do so by 25 percent even when all of them are taken.
I don't have my books with me, but basically it goes like this.....
You create two wands of scorching ray at 11th caster level. To do that the Artificer must succeed on a DC 31 Use Magic Device Check. At 11th level, an Artificer will have a Use Magic Device check of 14 ranks + 2 artisan bonus + 3 skill focus + 4 Int for a total of +23. Take 10 and you get your DC 31 no problem. So each wand does a total of 12d6 damage on a successful hit (4d6 per ray). Now take the Dual Wand Wielder feat and you can use both wands in the same round by burning more charges. So you are looking at 24d6 per round (12d6 for each wand times 2 wands per round) as a full round action. Next, you use the Metamagic Spell Trigger class feature apply Twin Spell to each wand you are using. Now the spells take effect twice each. So you are up to 48d6 damage per round (24d6 from using two wands doubled for applying Twin Spell using the class feature). Now you use the Action Surge feat to give yourself another standard action in the same round by spending action points. With that extra standard action you do another twinned scorching ray using the same principle as before but with only one wand instead of 2 because you can't dual wield wands with a standard action. Adding another twinned scorching ray adds 24d6 to the 48d6 you already have. So now you are at 72d6. Finally, since you have not used any swift actions this round, you use metamagic spell trigger again and quicken one of your wands making its use a swift action. This adds another 12d6 to the 72d6 you already have. So now you are up to 84d6. Since Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell, you can craft the wands to begin with as Empowered Scorching Rays (because empowered Scorching Ray is a 4th level slot and thus allowed on a wand under normal item creation rules). Taking the 84d6 you have gotten to already and empower it and you get 125d6 damage in one round using two wands of empowered scorching ray at roughly 12th level. It is horribly inefficient in terms of the charges it burns from the wands you are using, and it will burn action points to go full nova. That said, even without the action point to add the extra wand you still essentially get 36d6 (dual constructed empower wands) + 36d6 (Twinned using metamagic spell trigger) + 18d6 (empowered wand using Quickened metamagic trigger to use as a swift action) for a total of 90d6 without resorting to action point surges.
I am doing that from memory, but if you go to WotC optimization boards and look it up they have the full feat and construction tree. You will burn wands like there is no tomorrow doing it, but the artificer bypasses the cost of that by being able to make wands very cheaply.
Edit in: Forgot one other thing. There is an infusion that lets you apply a metamagic feat you know to a wand without using extra charges. Don't remember which one off hand, but that is a way to mitigate the high charge cost to use these combos.
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That combo from the wands is incredible, but...
Are you sure that you can apply all that Metamagic feats contemporaneously? Because the Metamagic Spell Trigger speaks of applying "a metamagic feat you know" to a spell trigger item. It's not clear if you can ONLY apply a single metamagic feat or not... and that would be a simple way to negate such a huge damage with such a (relatively) low level character.
I must however agree that the Retain Essence and the Craft Reserve are abilities that can be easily eliminated without weakening the class too much, with the current rules. As stated before, these were only suggestions I myself could not test at the moment (no players of mine seem interested with the Artificer...)
Well the thing is you can craft wands with a metamgic feat already built in. For example empower spell. Then you use the double wand wielder feat to get double the fun and only add Twin Spell to get twice the fun again. Then you use an action surge to add one more wand blast in with twinn and empower on it as the first two. Then for kicks and giggles you do one final wand with quicken only on it and you add another blast as a swift action. The action surge grants you one more standard action. I explained the full math in the post above that I just finished.
You have a point. But:
1.) an Empowered Caster level 11 Scorching Ray Wand is not cheap (spell level 3(since it's empowered),x caster level 11, x 750 = 24750 gp), not counting two.
2.) an Artificer must still take Two-Weapon Fighting to take Double Wand Wielder, and Two-Weapon Fighting has a minimum requirement of Dex 15. An artificer is alread a MAD character (relying on Intelligence and Charisma), and Constitution is always an option... with Dexterity, that makes 4 scores above average (not counting two feats taken only for the double wand stuff, and Empower Spell, Twin Spell and Action Surge for the multicombo; in 3.5, five feats at 12th level are exclusive only to humans... as said above, the character is optimized for this nuke)
3.) Scorching ray is a ranged touch. While this mean that a character has a good chance to hit, this is not always true - and if the character is shooting at a monster in melee with a friend, that is a -4 to hit that cannot be bypassed with the above combo, because it requires Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (again, a lot of feats to maximize the nuke).
The combo is possible, true, but the character is built only with that combo in mind. And if the monster is immune to fire? Resistant to fire ? With a good SR ? (Not counting, the combo itself is VERY gp-dependant... not sure I am happy playing a character that seems a humanoid B52 that eats money like chips...)
Theoretically speaking, a simple 11th caster wizard could do up to 24d6 with a single Scorching ray, if all his hit rolls are 20s...
I made an error, a human of 12th level has 6 feats... which counts for the Quicken spell of your combo above.
I'm still making errors... an Empowered Scorching Ray is a level 4 spell, so the full cost of a single wand is 4 x 11 x 750 = 33000gp. Two months and more that 60000gp to the Artificer to get ready his arsenal...
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You have a point. But:
1.) an Empowered Caster level 11 Scorching Ray Wand is not cheap (spell level 3(since it's empowered),x caster level 11, x 750 = 24750 gp), not counting two.
2.) an Artificer must still take Two-Weapon Fighting to take Double Wand Wielder, and Two-Weapon Fighting has a minimum requirement of Dex 15. An artificer is alread a MAD character (relying on Intelligence and Charisma), and Constitution is always an option... with Dexterity, that makes 4 scores above average (not counting two feats taken only for the double wand stuff, and Empower Spell, Twin Spell and Action Surge for the multicombo; in 3.5, five feats at 12th level are exclusive only to humans... as said above, the character is optimized for this nuke)
3.) Scorching ray is a ranged touch. While this mean that a character has a good chance to hit, this is not always true - and if the character is shooting at a monster in melee with a friend, that is a -4 to hit that cannot be bypassed with the above combo, because it requires Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (again, a lot of feats to maximize the nuke).
The combo is possible, true, but the character is built only with that combo in mind. And if the monster is immune to fire? Resistant to fire ? With a good SR ? (Not counting, the combo itself is VERY gp-dependant... not sure I am happy playing a character that seems a humanoid B52 that eats money like chips...)
Theoretically speaking, a simple 11th caster wizard could do up to 24d6 with a single Scorching ray, if all his hit rolls are 20s...
Ok. Several points.
1. The Artificer gets metamagic feats and item creation feats as bonus feats. Just a plain old character gets 1 feat every three levels. So just any character has 4 feats at 11th level. A human has 5 feats. An artificer gets the item creation feats for free. They also get a bonus feat at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter to use on metamagic feats. At 11th level that would be 2, but at 12th level that would be 3. But lets stick to the 11th level character. If you count the Artificers free item creation feats, 2 bonus metamagic feats, and the 4 feats every character gets, they will have a total of 6 item creation feats for free at 11th level, 2 bonus metamagic feats at 11th level, 4 base feats at 11th level, and possibly 1 bonus feat for being human. That is 12-13 feats at 11th level. Well above the 5 you mentioned.
2. The cost of the item creation can be reduced by the Artisan feats in the Eberron Campaign setting (down by 25% for extraordinary artisan) so the actual cost is more like 24750*.75 per wand for a total of 18,542 per wand. Looking at the feat tree, the Artisan gets Craft Wand for free. Empower Spell and Twin Spell can be taken with the bonus feats from the class features. With the remaining 5 feats, he takes TWF, Double Wand Wielder, Extraordinary Artisan, Action Surge, and say Point Blank Shot for kicks and giggles. In terms of ability scores, the Artificer can create stat boosting items cheaper than they can be bought. Using the standard array as per Pathfinder he would have stats of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 plus 2 points for leveling up (now that I am thinking about it I think my player was 12th level and not 11th, which adds another 2 feats and one more ability score boost to the artificer bringing their total to 15 total feats counting class features that grant them... the metamagic bonus one at 12th can be used to add Quicken spell as it is a bonus feat for metamagic feats and the regular 12th level feat can be use for precise shot negating the melee penalty). Anyway, going back to stats, you would get Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 Cha 15 if you figure 12th level. If you add stat boosting items to that, then you are gaining on those stats. The Artificer has a d6 in hp, so he doesn't need as high a con as say a wizard or sorcerer. Artificers also follow the Clerics attack bonus progression, meaning that they have a higher BAB than the Wizard as well.
3. This same basic principle can be used on any spell up to 4th level. So you can do orbs, lightning bolts, magic missiles. All of them vary on the total damage output and degree of nastiness, but even just doing it with Magic Missile can output some just sick amounts of damage. The build is versatile by just changing the wand types up. Again, it is very cost inefficient but power player seldom care how much it costs to make a broken character. They are getting their glee from solo killing your dragon BBEG in one round using these combos. If Gold use bothers you that much, just make them plain old scorching ray wands without the empower on them. It reduces your damage output to to like 60-70 d6 (I don't want to go back and redo the math accounting for it) but that is still light years better than any normal 11th-12th level character can do and still broken as heck. The cost of plain old scorching ray wands at 11th caster level is 2*11*750*.75 for a total of 12375 per wand, roughly half the number you have for the dedicated build.
Regardless though, it is a broken class. The ability to gain that type of damage output at a low level because your class gives you the equivalent of 10 feats at 12th level is ridiculous. Add on the essence and artisan features and it gets plain stupid. Add the infusion and I question what they were smoking the day they did that.
Edit in: A few more numbers now that I got access to my books... At 12th level an artificer has a BAB of +9. Add +2 base from my Dex above and now add an infusion to boost it +4 and you get a touch attack bonus of +12. Thus on average he will hit a touch AC of 22. He will hit a touch AC of 17 75% of the time. A 12th level Artificer has a total of 7 item creation feats for free, 3 bonus feats that can be used on either metamagic feats or the artisan feats, 5 base feats, and 1 bonus feat for being human for a total of 16 feats. Sick isn't it? So with the 3 bonus feats you take Empower, Twin, and Quicken Spell. With the 6 normal feats you take TWF, Double Wand Wielder, Action Surge, Extraordinary Artisan, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. For ability scores using the standard array you would go Str 8 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 14. You then use your 3 ability boosts to put 1 points in Dex and 2 in Int. That give you Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 10 Cha 14. You probably have at least a +2 Dex and +2 Int item. Anyway, you can tweak the numbers endlessly but I still stand by my statement that the Artificer as written in ECS is broken as heck.
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if this is possible per RAW (i dont know ive never looked into it), that is where a good GM steps in & says NO, aint gonna happen, its overkill & tone it down or whatever. i suspect this kind of build could be done with most combos. there is always a way to
min/max.when i posted this, it was just because i like the artificer flavor, the versatility they can bring to a party all the little things they can do, given a little time and not because a player can min/max's his character into a walking nuke.
i like homunculus too.
sure the class could be abused, but i think that can be said for most
It is RAW unfortunately. I didn't believe it either when my player did it. I went and read every book looking for a different interpretation. I couldn't find it. Getting this particular combo takes some work, but the real problem isn't really this combo. It's the fact that the Artificer gets every single item creation feat, a bonus feat every 4 levels, and the ability to extract XP from any item they find to make new ones, and all the insanely powerful class features they get for free (like metamagic spell trigger and spell completion). The solid attack progression and hp are just icing on the cake. For the Artificer to work in Pathfinder as a class, it would have to be heavily reworked. I'm not saying it is impossible, but they already have layed the groundwork for Mage Smiths and Golemworkers to fill those roles in Golarion. I suspect they will go that route with it instead of just redoing the Artificer.
The simplest way to create an Artificer with Pathfinder rules would be to create an Artificer Bloodline for the Sorcerer.
Make "Use Magic Item" the bonus skill
Make the Item Creation feats the bonus feats
Craft Homunculous would be either a feat or a Bloodline power
Trapfinding replaces Eschew Materials since an Artificer is all about materials
And Artificer's Touch, Retain Essence, and Metamagic Trigger become some of the Bloodline Powers.
First of all, I have to admit that Brent was right. I had only one player in my campaigns who took an Artificer, and it was more of a "buffer" type, so such a problem never stroke me (she was a warforged artificer who took all the time to boost herself, and when her work was done... the battle was already finished).
About the calculation I made yesterday... well, they didn't calculate well. I completely forgot about the bonus feats an Artificer takes every 4 levels (although I know of all the item creation bonus feats they get).
Obviously, something must be done in order to fix these issues.
Here are my 2 cents:
1) Get rid of the Retain Essence and Craft Reserve features, since in PFRPG there is no more an XP loss when crafting magic items. Some days ago I said that it was nice to keep some feature that worked in asimilar way, but during these days I changed my mind (and frankly, giving "virtual gp" was way too much)
2) Get rid of the bonus Metamagic/Artificer feats an Artificer takes every 4 levels, since they take all the Item Creation feats for free
3) Tweak the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability, which is prone to abuse; make it a swift action to utilize a single known metamagic feat on an item (in order to avoid multiple combos, and to avoid the silly Quicken Metamagic trick with wands that seems more a "Pecos Bill" or "Iaijutsu" thing: "Now DRAW !"). Also, it could be wise to make the ability redundant with magic items built with a metamagic spell inside (something like "you can only use Metamagic Spell Trigger on a magic item that is not built with a metamagic spell inside")
4) I would still give the Artefice Domain to Artificers, since it doesn't seem so unbalanced like the other things mentioned above.
This, as obvious, are my personal suggestions for a "homebrew" version, and as always I am open to further suggestions.
Sadly, I am not fond of the Blastificer. I am more keen on the original aims of the artificer. Which was Magic Item creation. The artificer who believes in that his equipment can make him. I enjoy having nimblewrights, black stone gigants, and Hellfire Monoliths serving me, and guarding my phylactery(mine became a lich).
I don't like how people consider the artificer to be game breaking. A wizard can do the same exact thing, and so can a rogue. A rogue with a High Dexterity would be deadly with dual wands, because, if the wands burn out, he has his short sword and dagger. The problem is the feats, not the class.
Is the Inventor class from the Clock and Steam Blackmoor product OGL? (stats and rules, not the fluff, of course). It seems a quite more balanced take at the general Articicer character concept.
Even if you don't play a blastificer, the ability to make just about every magic item in the game is powerful enough in itself. Artificer infusions aren't why they are powerful. Item creation is. You don't have to create an incredible amount of wands to pull off some really scary combinations with an artificer-- wondrous items and such can also do the trick, just not quite as readily.
At any rate, the very fact that such a proposed "fix" is suggested says to me that the class is probably best left in Eberron, a world built to include it. After all, the artificer's shenanigans are certainly impressive but there are plenty of other more pressing concerns with the Big Three.