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Can someone tell me about the three Tomes of Horror and what the general idea behind them is? (I'm very clueless about them.)
And which is regarded as the best one and why?
the first one was intended to bring favorite monsters from earlier editions into 3.0. critters that didn't make the "official" cut, so to speak - for instance, Tome of Horrors I statted out favorites like the old school demon lords (fraz-urb-luu, et al...) and most of the monsters from the original monster manual, monster manual II and fiend folio (mostly the decent ones from FF though). the second and third books contained more original content.
if you run a 3x game and want stats for a lot of the 1e monsters that were never developed for 3x, the first book is awesome. the other two are great as well, but wont tingle the nostalgia center as much.
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Hmmm...sounds cool. Can you give other examples of the monsters used?
wow, between the three books, you're looking at close to eight or nine hundred critters! seriously, think of every monster from 1e that wasn't in the 3x WotC monster manual, and its probably in tome of horrors I, or the "normal animal" section of tome of horrors II. well, unless you didn't play 1e, then i guess i'll just have to start typing... (the 3.5 version of tome of horrors I - restatted and reformatted in a more user friendly layout - is/was only available in pdf form, so you'd have to buy it online if its still out there).
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This series is worth every penny. I was first turned on to them by PAIZO when the Pathfinder Adventure Paths started and they were referenced in the material. Since then, I've acquired I, II, and III. I enjoy the print copy and agree with the other posts above - there's a lot of substance, very intelligent design and fantastic sketches of the beasties.
As an aside, I believe the reason I too was ignorant of these incredible tomes, is the fact that I was formerly under the wotc spell that taught me to only purchase official wotc content - what a joke! With the death of dungeon and dragon magazines I explored PAIZO, and Necromancer Games (who produces these books). With the advent of the so-called fourth edition (a game so different from dnd that it could have been published by a 3PP), I no longer believe there is such thing as official content anymore.
I tell this story, because my disillusionment with wotc and my discovery of the ToH series went hand-in-hand. Get them & enjoy.
P.s. A grognard friend of mine also approves! He is extremely particular about his "dungeons and dragons" materials, and he's reviewed the ToH and finds it of excellent quality. (Take that for what its worth - my point is that it is truly an excellent dnd supplement.) In my opinion, the ToH series is more genuine d&d than fourth edition.
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ToH I has most of the stuff left out of 3.5 and 3e from the 1e fiend folio, 1e mm1 and 1e mm2. Then, it seemed, as time went by, WOTC put back in a bunch of those monsters anyhow, just in time to have them for about 3 months to a year until 4e came out, if you bought all the right splatbooks and/or adventure books, because putting the left out classic monsters such as the Cambion or the Alu demon in the Monster Manual IV instead of like a 6th level hobgoblin ninja/mindknife or whatever it's called is just bad business sense.
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Like, for instance, I do a Saltmarsh pbp. There were rotgrubs in there from 1e, and I wanted to keep them in there.
MM? Nope.
MM II? forget it.
MM IV? naah, there's not enough room for them what with all the "color" spawn "adverb"ifiers of Tiamat.
ToH? yup.
I think the rotgrub is in some splatbook though.
I give 'em HUGE props for the amount of effort involved, and because they did what no one else bothered to do. But be prepared: the conversions are rather bloodless -- straight conversion from 1e to 3.0/3.5, with little effort at customization, finding unique roles, mechanics, etc.; I maybe kid myself, but I feel as if I can create better conversions myself, given the time and motivation (see my dire corby elsewhere on the boards, for example). Not to take away from what Clark & co. did; I convert monsters one at a time, with a lot of care, and they tackled literally hundreds of them. So if you absolutely MUST have a kech, and you don't have the time or the creativity to stat one up yourself, Tome of Horrors (I) is absolutely indispensible. See also this site, which has a lot of the ToH prototypes.
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I give 'em HUGE props for the amount of effort involved, and because they did what no one else bothered to do. But be prepared: the conversions are rather bloodless -- straight conversion from 1e to 3.0/3.5, with little effort at customization, finding unique roles, mechanics, etc.; I maybe kid myself, but I feel as if I can create better conversions myself, given the time and motivation (see my dire corby elsewhere on the boards, for example). Not to take away from what Clark & co. did; I convert monsters one at a time, with a lot of care, and they tackled literally hundreds of them. So if you absolutely MUST have a kech, and you don't have the time or the creativity to stat one up yourself, Tome of Horrors (I) is absolutely indispensible. See also this site, which has a lot of the ToH prototypes.
i like that they did all the heavy lifting, whech frees the dm up to add the fluff (like roles and whatnot). i cut my teeth on 1e anyway (and have a decent handle on the monsters), so i just really need the stat blocks.
i can see where someone just coming in, who doesn't have the backround we do with these critters, could have used a bit more "ecology/motivation" type writing in the descriptions, though.
can you link to your dire corby write up? i'd love to see another take on an old school fiend folio classic...
[edit] nevermond, didn't notice it was already linked, sorry :)
My kech, for anyone interested:
Hit Dice: 5d6+23 (40 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft., climb 60 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +4 melee (1d4+2), bite -1 melee (1d6+1)
Face/Reach: 5 ft. x 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Traps, rend
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 5/cold iron,
low-light vision, pass without trace, scent
Saving Throws: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +12, Craft (trapmaking) +11,
Hide +9*, Jump +10, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9,
Survival +10, Tumble +10
Feats: Alertness, Toughness, Track [B]
Climate/Terrain: Temperate or warm forest
Organization: Pack (2-5) or band (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 6-15 HD (Medium-size)
A kech appears as a monkey-like creature about 6 feet tall. It has a fanged filled mouth, fiery blue eyes, and tough, leathery leaf-like skin, green in color. Kech are excellent climbers and are equally at home on the ground or in trees.
Although seemingly bestial, they are actually cunning fey, representing the cruel and capricious nature of the forest and the rapaciousness of its predators. Their chief goal seems to be to miselad, snare, and devour humans. Several small bands will sometimes amalgamate in order to raid forest communities and carry off hapless victims to some faraway spot where the keches can feast undisturbed.
Combat
Kech prefer indirect combat, utilizing pits and deadfalls to weaken parties and travelers, followed by snares to hold the weakened prey helpless to be killed. They will not hesitate to face a lone target directly, however. Opponents that are considerably superior will be attacked at night while resting. The kech will concentrate their attacks on one or two members of the party (those on watch usually). If successful, they will drag their prey off into the forest.
Traps (Ex): Kech may use their Craft skill to build snares, deadfalls, and the like. Assuming the kech take 10 when constructing these, their traps require a DC 21 Search check to detect and a DC 21 Disable Device check to disarm.
Snares entangle those caught in them (+11 melee touch; DC 21 Strength check to break or DC 21 Escape Artist to wriggle free). Deadfalls affect a 5 ft. x 10 ft. area for 4d6 damage (DC 21 Reflex for half). Kech traps are used in conjunction with false trails (DC 20 Survival check and Track feat needed to detect the ruse) and ambush attacks.
Rend (Ex): If a kech hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d4+3 damage.
Pass Without Trace (Ex): Kech can move across any ground—ice, snow, mud, without leaving any footprints. Tracking a kech by nonmagical means is impossible.
Skills: Kech receive a +8 racial bonus on Climb, Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks. A kech can take 10 when climbing even when distracted or under pressure. *Due to their coloration and leaf-like skin, kech receive a +12 racial bonus to Hide checks when in a forested area.
The dire corby thread is linked to in the post in which I mentioned it (stupid hyperlink blue... too hard to tell from black!). As pointed out in that thread, he should really be CR 2, not CR 1.
nice work!
Thanks! Anything else you need, let me know; if I don't have it, I'd be willing to work on it.
My theory is that it's better to have 3 versions of a monster, and be able to pick one, than just have one (or none!). For giant crabs, for example, sometimes I use the Tome of Horrors one, sometimes I use the WotC web site ("Monster Mayhem," I think) version, and sometimes I use one of the ones from Stormwrack, depending on what adventure I'm using it with.
Anyone know of a site that has an updated list of all the different monsters and what book they are in?
Yes - go here. There is probably some that are not in there as of yet though.
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Yes - go here. There is probably some that are not in there as of yet though.
Thanks for the link, but I am looking for something more "at-a-glance" and A-Z "list like". While your link sort-of does that, it also "garbles" the list with classed monsters and stated NPCs as well. I'm looking for something that is just straight monsters (without the ninja/swashbuckler orc that ALSO appeared in book x along with monster x)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Thanks for the link, but I am looking for something more "at-a-glance" and A-Z "list like". While your link sort-of does that, it also "garbles" the list with classed monsters and stated NPCs as well...
Yeah, I've been going back and forth on classed monsters. Not sure what I want to do with that as of yet. What in particular are you looking for? Here's a list of what's in the Tome of Horrors, for example.
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What in particular are you looking for?
Not looking for any particular monster, just a compiled table of them (all of them, if it exists). The number of books with monsters in them (which was almost every one of them) hit critical mass long ago. It would be nice to have a compiled list of where to look for a particular monster all in one place (the LIST of monsters in one place, not the monsters themselves)...
Not looking for any particular monster, just a compiled table of them. The number of books with monsters in them (which was almost every one of them) hit critical mass long ago. It would be nice to have a compiled list of where to look for a particular monster all in one place...
I've been trying to compile a list of them for some time - if you know what monster you're looking for, you can do a search on the term. Click on the results will give a list where they appear in. But as for an easy A-Z list with sources listed, no, I don't have that.
~shakes my head in disgust~ Geeze Lilith. You don't have it done ALREADY?!? ~RUNS~
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For just wizards' products, you could take a look at:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1
Like, for instance, I do a Saltmarsh pbp. There were rotgrubs in there from 1e, and I wanted to keep them in there.
MM? Nope.
MM II? forget it.
MM IV? naah, there's not enough room for them what with all the "color" spawn "adverb"ifiers of Tiamat.
ToH? yup.
I think the rotgrub is in some splatbook though.
Rotgrubs turned up in the Dungeonscape splatbook, in two different locations. One was a single rotgrub as a CR 4 Hazard, the other was a rotgrub swarm at CR 6.
Incidentally, Dungeonscape co-author Rich Burlew recently made a hilarious reference to that book in his absolutely marvellous on-line comic, The Order of the Stick.
Check out the comments made by the demon roaches in the last frame
Granted, one misses a lot without the overall context, so I strongly advise everyone to read the web comic from the beginning.
As for a consolidated list of monsters, the ones published for 3.x by WotC can be found here.
I hope that that helps!
For just wizards' products, you could take a look at:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1
Drat! Beaten by someone faster with urls than I am! :)
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For just wizards' products, you could take a look at:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1
Yes, Yes, this is good...
Thank you!
I can recommend the other consolidated lists at WotC, available here. The only issue that I have with them is that the Spell list only includes spells from the PHB and the Spell Compendium.
As far as I know, the hardcopy version of the first Tome of Horrors is for 3.0, and only the PDF copy was updated to 3.5. So if you see a hardcopy version of ToH for sale, it's 3.0.
I think that ToH II and III were made under 3.5 rules right off the bat.
As far as I know, the hardcopy version of the first Tome of Horrors is for 3.0, and only the PDF copy was updated to 3.5. So if you see a hardcopy version of ToH for sale, it's 3.0.
I think that ToH II and III were made under 3.5 rules right off the bat.
The Tome of Horrors, Revised Edition is the 3.5 version.
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The Tome of Horrors, Revised Edition is the 3.5 version.As far as I know, the hardcopy version of the first Tome of Horrors is for 3.0, and only the PDF copy was updated to 3.5. So if you see a hardcopy version of ToH for sale, it's 3.0.
I think that ToH II and III were made under 3.5 rules right off the bat.
But is available only as a PDF.
This series is worth every penny. I was first turned on to them by PAIZO when the Pathfinder Adventure Paths started and they were referenced in the material. Since then, I've acquired I, II, and III. I enjoy the print copy and agree with the other posts above - there's a lot of substance, very intelligent design and fantastic sketches of the beasties.
As an aside, I believe the reason I too was ignorant of these incredible tomes, is the fact that I was formerly under the wotc spell that taught me to only purchase official wotc content - what a joke! With the death of dungeon and dragon magazines I explored PAIZO, and Necromancer Games (who produces these books). With the advent of the so-called fourth edition (a game so different from dnd that it could have been published by a 3PP), I no longer believe there is such thing as official content anymore.
I tell this story, because my disillusionment with wotc and my discovery of the ToH series went hand-in-hand. Get them & enjoy.
P.s. A grognard friend of mine also approves! He is extremely particular about his "dungeons and dragons" materials, and he's reviewed the ToH and finds it of excellent quality. (Take that for what its worth - my point is that it is truly an excellent dnd supplement.) In my opinion, the ToH series is more genuine d&d than fourth edition.
I find stories like this fascinating. Especially since I personally believe that a large part of Paizo's success can be traced back to the fact that when they produced Dungeon and Dragon, they were "official" game content magazines. Paizo got a lot of customers initially who were, similar to Pax, only interested in official content. As Paizo when on to produce PF-AP, they started bringing in a lot of 3PP stuff maybe due to no longer being able to access as much official 3.5 D&D content, or maybe because the shackles were removed and they were free to use content they previously weren't allowed to use.
In either case, it was Paizo's "official" position that got them not only with a foot in the door, but well inside of many 3.5 groups. So I think it is silly to bash official content producers.
Since I no longer purchase PF content (I'm sticking with 3.5 and have little interest in variant products, at least till the prices drop further), I wonder if someone could answer me this question, does PF products still delve into 3PP materials as much as they did before their official system came out? Directly, by which I mean they don't put somethign into their own book and then refer to the entry in that book such as how they took some ToH creatures and put them in the Bestiary and then refer to the Bestiary and not ToH? Also, for those people who do go PFRPG, have you purchase a lot of the 3PP related to that system, or do you find yourself sticking only to the official content produced directly by Paizo?
Since I no longer purchase PF content (I'm sticking with 3.5 and have little interest in variant products, at least till the prices drop further), I wonder if someone could answer me this question, does PF products still delve into 3PP materials as much as they did before their official system came out? Directly, by which I mean they don't put somethign into their own book and then refer to the entry in that book such as how they took some ToH creatures and put them in the Bestiary and then refer to the Bestiary and not ToH?
The Adventure Paths, at least, still feature monsters with elements from Tome of Horrors X or Advanced Bestiary, with a page number for where that material is found in the 3PP product. Monsters that are printed in a Pathfinder product give the page reference for that product.
Also, for those people who do go PFRPG, have you purchase a lot of the 3PP related to that system, or do you find yourself sticking only to the official content produced directly by Paizo?
Essentially, I want to have all the official content first, before I start purchasing 3PP products. Since I buy both Pathfinder products and 4E products at the moment, there is little leftover money in the RPG budget for anything unofficial. I do plan to get some 3PP material in the future; some of it looks very well made.
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for those people who do go PFRPG, have you purchase a lot of the 3PP related to that system, or do you find yourself sticking only to the official content produced directly by Paizo?
As my "Superscriber" tag indicates, I purchase all of Paizo's Pathfinder material. I have however, purchased a few "Pathfinder Compatible" products as well. But I am very particular in which non-Paizo products I choose...
There is no direct formula I use to scrutinize this material before purchase, I just base it upon the item's description on whether it appears to be useful to me or not (which was and still is my basis for 3PP d20 material for use with my 3.5 games as well)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-