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This is something that was fixed in the non-OGL PHB2, but is something that really needs to end up in some fashion or another in the OGL world (and hopefully allowable in PFS play)
Separate Shield Bashing and Two Weapon Fighting. No one who uses a sword and board fighting style is going to have the necessary Dex to even TAKE TWF most likely.
Just make it flat -5 penalty for shield bash of any type with improved shield bash?
This is something that was fixed in the non-OGL PHB2, but is something that really needs to end up in some fashion or another in the OGL world (and hopefully allowable in PFS play)
Separate Shield Bashing and Two Weapon Fighting. No one who uses a sword and board fighting style is going to have the necessary Dex to even TAKE TWF most likely.
Just make it flat -5 penalty for shield bash of any type with improved shield bash?
You make a good point Coridan -- there is a huge difference between Sword & Board and TWF.
You might want to check out this thread. Where sword & shield was discussed in depth. Here is another thread covering the same topic.
I can only hope that our voices are being heard.
CJ
there is a huge difference between Sword & Board and TWF.I would disagree, using a shield as an offensive weapon or as a combined offensive/defensive weapon is going to call for a lot more agility than a standard block, the full culmination of the shield path can be seen as a style of two weapon fighting.
I respectfully disagree the full culmination of the shield & single-handed weapon path should be "I don't get hit", or "I wear my opponent down and wait for an opening". Two-weapon fighting doesn't seem to be an adequate representation of this sort of style.
CJ
there is a huge difference between Sword & Board and TWF.I would disagree, using a shield as an offensive weapon or as a combined offensive/defensive weapon is going to call for a lot more agility than a standard block, the full culmination of the shield path can be seen as a style of two weapon fighting.I respectfully disagree the full culmination of the shield & single-handed weapon path should be "I don't get hit", or "I wear my opponent down and wait for an opening". Two-weapon fighting doesn't seem to be an adequate representation of this sort of style.
CJ
If the point is to get AC and not attack, then why even worry about the shield bashing aspect? You should be using your shield to protect yourself not attack other people in that case.
If the point is to get AC and not attack, then why even worry about the shield bashing aspect? You should be using your shield to protect yourself not attack other people in that case.
Yes. The "point" of a shield is not to attack. Shields don't have points -- unless you are using those funky Drow shields or the shields with spikes or the African shields with horns...
...so SOME shields do have points. Many shields do not have points.
If you were to chose to carry a weapon in your off hand in many instances you could do better than a shield.
Using a shield as a weapon is an option.
Using a shield as a means of not getting hit should also be an option. Thus far, this has been a neglected option.
CJ
Using a shield as a weapon is an option.
Using a shield as a means of not getting hit should also be an option. Thus far, this has been a neglected option.
CJ
You don't need any feats to use a shield as a weapon, though you do take some pretty serious penalties if don't take some feats. But if you want to bash someone and keep the AC, that is what improved shield bash does. So what exactly is the problem?
You don't need any feats to use a shield as a weapon, though you do take some pretty serious penalties if don't take some feats. But if you want to bash someone and keep the AC, that is what improved shield bash does. So what exactly is the problem?Using a shield as a weapon is an option.
Using a shield as a means of not getting hit should also be an option. Thus far, this has been a neglected option.
CJ
The problem is that I'm posting this to the wrong thread.
I am totally thread jacking here to support my own agenda -- which is give us more defensive Sword & Board options.
That is the problem.
CJ
At any rate,
if the only purpose of shields is to grant offhand attacks to people with shield bonuses, the status quo is fine. Treat shields as a weapon that gives an AC bonus when you don't use it.
I actually think Shield Bashing should be handled as an offhand attack, with no exception, and no further applicable feats than the 2 Weapon Fighting Chain. This is almost certainly not reverse compatible though, and will be screwing a lot of existing low dex characters, whether or not it "makes sense."
It's been said at length in two or three different threads now, but there has to be more to the shield style of combat than simply attacking with the shield. I've not seen anyone yet suggest that we eliminate shield bashing— I think there is definite clamor for Shield-style feats that give low-dex high armor characters a boost.
Ok, wait, let me see if I understand the issues.
1) people want to see more feats that make shields more defensive, besides just giving more AC, somethings like the Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, and perhaps Active Shield Defense from PHB2 (which obviously are not open content, but something similar could be designed).
2) people want to see more combat feats for shields like Shield Sling from PHB2, Shield Charge and Shield Slam from CW.
3) people want TWF-esque feat(s) for shields that do not depend on dex like Agile Shield Fighter from PHB2.
Ok, wait, let me see if I understand the issues.
1) people want to see more feats that make shields more defensive, besides just giving more AC, somethings like the Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, and perhaps Active Shield Defense from PHB2 (which obviously are not open content, but something similar could be designed).
2) people want to see more combat feats for shields like Shield Sling from PHB2, Shield Charge and Shield Slam from CW.
3) people want TWF-esque feat(s) for shields that do not depend on dex like Agile Shield Fighter from PHB2.
Good idea. There are separate issues, thanks for clarifying.
My stance on #1 is that a Shield Feat might increase the effectiveness of a main attack, sort of a shield enabled counter-attack. I have my house feat that enables this and I'm quite happy with it, so I don't really mind what others may say. So, in a nitpicking fashion, your definition of problem 1 doesn't encompass my gripe.
For #2, I think more feats for any style of combat is a good thing, except there are definitely some styles that have gotten more love than others (2 handers, 2WF). All the feats mentioned for #2 can trace back to a 2WF and Dex 15 requirement. I think that there should be viable shield feats (not necessarily bashing) for people who don't want to go with 2WF.
#3... I agree that in principle a shield bash should be an off-hand attack, and the only feats that should alleviate penalties for this are part of the 2WF chains. In fact this is not reverse compatible, because the shield bashing feats from the 3.5 SRD did not have 2WF (and therefore not Dex 15) as a requirement. I don't see what adding requirements to SRD feats achieves for Pathfinder, besides increasing conversion effort for 3.5 characters with those feats.
Ok, wait, let me see if I understand the issues.
1) people want to see more feats that make shields more defensive, besides just giving more AC, somethings like the Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, and perhaps Active Shield Defense from PHB2 (which obviously are not open content, but something similar could be designed).
Exactly. At a minimum this is what I am looking for. I want a little love for the one-handed fighter.
I'm not really looking for anything more than a couple feats that increase the Shield AC bonus and perhaps reduces the Armor Penalty. More is better though.
CJ
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Ok, wait, let me see if I understand the issues.
1) people want to see more feats that make shields more defensive, besides just giving more AC, somethings like the Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, and perhaps Active Shield Defense from PHB2 (which obviously are not open content, but something similar could be designed).
2) people want to see more combat feats for shields like Shield Sling from PHB2, Shield Charge and Shield Slam from CW.
3) people want TWF-esque feat(s) for shields that do not depend on dex like Agile Shield Fighter from PHB2.
Yeah I basically just want OGL versions of those feats from the PHB2 >.>
Honestly I'd be shocked if someone hadn't already made OGL versions in like Quintessential Paladin or some other 3PP book. I want to see it in the core for Pathfinder though so we can have some sword and shielders in Pathfinder Society.
#3... I agree that in principle a shield bash should be an off-hand attack, and the only feats that should alleviate penalties for this are part of the 2WF chains. In fact this is not reverse compatible, because the shield bashing feats from the 3.5 SRD did not have 2WF (and therefore not Dex 15) as a requirement. I don't see what adding requirements to SRD feats achieves for Pathfinder, besides increasing conversion effort for 3.5 characters with those feats.
The only thing I am not liking here, is I am getting the impression that you are saying a shield attack would have to be an off-hand attack. That you couldn't use a shield as a primary weapon. I dislike that idea, I know the core rules state it like that but it was clarified in the FAQ that it was written from the assumption that the shield would be a secondary weapon. And that in fact it could be used as a primary weapon.
In that case it makes sense that you don't need TWF to get Improved Shield Bash because there could be instances where you'd shield bash but not TWF. For example if all you had was a longsword and a heavy steel shield and were facing skeletons (DR 5/bludgeoning). In that case you might want to just two-hand your heavy shield and smash the hell out of them and if you could get the AC bonus due to ISB all the better.
Also remember that using a weapon in the off-hand even if it is the only attack is -4 penalty (-2 for light though I think)
I believe the -4 penalty (and it is -4 in all cases) is merely a hold over from 3rd edition. The only place I remember ever seeing it mentioned in 3.5 was in the glossary, and it was probably accidentally left over from the days when there was the ambidextrous feat.
The only thing I am not liking here, is I am getting the impression that you are saying a shield attack would have to be an off-hand attack. That you couldn't use a shield as a primary weapon. I dislike that idea, I know the core rules state it like that but it was clarified in the FAQ that it was written from the assumption that the shield would be a secondary weapon. And that in fact it could be used as a primary weapon.
Well, I wasn't actually building a case against this.
There might be very weird NPCs, and who hasn't tried to build the dual-spiked shield wielding character. Also, think of the poor sword & board fighter who's only sword got sundered; will they keep fighting off-handed? No. (2-handed in that moment of desparation, I estimate) Also, I have at least once in my gaming career thrown a shield as a weapon (but not so proficiently as the Captain), but I was playing a first level commoner so that's a write off.
Treating shield bashing as simply an attack leaves room for these corner cases. If you wanted to put the shield in you primary hand and a weapon in the off hand, it's clear how the rolls would work. I think this is how the matter stands in 3.5 and the Pathfinder Alphas, as well.
The SRD Feat "Improved Shield Bash" has been replaced in Pathfinder with "Deft Shield." Deft Shield requires 2WF, DEX 15, and Improved Shield Bash does not. Also, Deft shield has an annoying caveat that a missed shield bash doesn't let you retain the bonus.
The first change actually forces heavy armor fighters that already had improved shield bash to pickup another feat and a high dex they have little use for. The second change is rather just irritating. I don't see the reason for it, but it doesn't invalidate feat selections, so I'll live with it.
Something ought to fill the vacuum for low-dex characters that favor heavy armor and large shields. If Pathfinder wants to treat shield bashing as an off-hand weapon (or primary hand if you're into that sort of thing), do a favor for the Clerics and Paladins of the world. Those iconics are often bearing shields, but they rarely have high DEXs and 2WF is overplayed.
At the least, if there was such a feat, GMs could simply replace Improved Shield Bash on characters who no longer qualified to have it.
I think a feat that gives benefits when enemies attack and miss you is a good start, since it works with the one thing we know shield style characters have: higher ACs.
If you're just using your shield for AC, then the whole two weapon fighting thing isn't part of the picture.
This is true. There are 3+ issues of contention being discussed.
We're also having slightly different conversations in multiple threads. That's not helping the clarity.
Revisiting the earlier enumeration:
I think we can all agree on these two points?
The SRD Feat "Improved Shield Bash" has been replaced in Pathfinder with "Deft Shield." Deft Shield requires 2WF, DEX 15, and Improved Shield Bash does not. Also, Deft shield has an annoying caveat that a missed shield bash doesn't let you retain the bonus.
Ah, I see, I haven't look closely enough at the new feats to see this. Yes that does seem like a poor choice, hopefully they will at least change it back.