One thing that no game I've ever seen, except Conan the RPG, got scholars or wizards correct in the skill system. These people are supposed to be book worms with lots of knowledge, yet they always get 2 + int in skills. Granted they have a high INT usually, but that doesn't make up for it.
I purpose the following as a class ability:
Scholar (Ex)
You gain 3 skill points per Hit Dice in addition to your current skill point total granted from your class. These additional skill points must go into knowledge, craft, or profession skills. This is to represent the vast knowledge your wizard gains through study and profession.
I'm not sure on the wording, but that's basically what I suggest. If you directly increase the wizard skill point total then they can put the skills anywhere, so it wouldn't work as well.
Any thoughts?
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Only that I really like this idea.
I've also been kicking around the idea of giving the core Wizard the Lore ability from the Loremaster prestige class (DMG p.191), but limiting it somehow to things that would be likely to be found in writing (rather than just local rumour or somesuch like the Bard would excel at). After reading your idea, though, I'm thinking maybe both would be appropriate. The crunch impact is not that great, but the ability for the wizard to truly be the guy who knows every piece of information that is worth knowing (and much that isn't) would be kind of cool - and match the archetype.
Hmmmm...
Lore: Loremasters gather knowledge. At 2nd level, a loremaster gains the ability to know legends or information regarding various topics, just as a bard can with bardic knowledge. The loremaster adds her level and her Intelligence modifier to the lore check. See page 28 of the Player’s Handbook for more information on bardic knowledge.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate here anyhoo.
Saying "3 skill points that must be spent on knowledge skills" functionally gives the wizard 3 extra skill points to spend wherever he wants.
Why? Because most wizards are going to want to take several knowledges anyway. Those, and spell craft (and concentration if they ever bring it back) were some of the biggest things wizards take.
Saying you get 3 points to spend in the area you usually spent points anyway is really just re-adjusting the skill points. Instead of getting Arcana, The Planes, and Dungeoneering with normal points now you'll buy it with these three and the other three will go elsewhere. Any elsewhere.
The extra is extra, but it works functionally just like a reallocation of skill points. Not to mention now the character has to keep track of what skill was spent with what point.
I think overall we'd be better off with wizards getting what they should have had in the first place: 4 skill points instead of 2.
The wizard has 16 class skills (if I did my quick count correctly).
Rogue 21, bard 27.
That puts them #3 in skills, but they are dead last in skill points.
Why not give 'em the bump to +4?
</devil's advocate>
-S
I would love to see that as a player (I end up playing bards or multiclassing because the lore options sound better), but I am also going to advocate against it:
1) not all wizards are scholars. They tend to know their arcana and spellcraft, but in a fantasy campaign you can also envisage battle mages who train in the army, spellwrights who do manufacturing stuff or foppish aristocrats who want to know their spells and have power to boss around but care zip about learning. The minimum skills for the wizard's trade, Arcana and Spellcraft, can be covered with regular points.
2) the bard ability not only reflects scholarly training but some sort of extraordinary skill to put things together, recall bits and pieces of information, etc. In a couple words, it's not only "academic" (as wizards tend to be), it implies a sort of lifestyle, which, again, does not follow all wizard lifestyles.
3) I could see what you are proposing as a Feat, open to anyone (as you have many examples of scholarly clerics and monks in RW and in fantasy settings), some revamping of the Education feat (first seen in the FR 3.0, also appears modified in NG's Wilderlands, IIRC).
Scholar [General]
Requirements: Int 13+, Literacy, at least 3 skill points [with PF skill system] in 2 Knowledge skills
Effect: All knowledge skills are class skills for you. They also can be used untrained. You gain a +2 to one given Kn. skill and +1 to other two.
Loremaster [General]
Requirements: Int 15+, Scholar Feat
Effect: You gain a further +2 to your chosen Scholar skill and +1 to other two Kn. skills. You can take 10 from Knowledge skills and, once per day, take 20 from one Knowledge skill as a Standard action.
They are less powerful than the Bard class feature, which seems fair to me, and require feat specialization, which also seems to make sense: be more scholarly and, if a wizard, you'll have less time to delve into item creation or metamagic techniques.
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mm nice, but that doesn't solve a problem i see wither with Wizard and with the Cleric
but are supposed to be knowledgeable people... but their skill points don't agree with that issue... ok the wizards usually has high intelligence, which is not the same for the cleric...
years ago i decided as house rule to give 2 skills points extra to every class (so as not to look as if favoring only the cleric and wizard), in Iron Heroes and other games the least they i give a class is 4 skill points
that is to focus more in the skills and not just in the roll to hit
As a solution, how about just letting wizards get knowledge skills at half price? Two ranks for one point spent?
ok the wizards usually has high intelligence, which is not the same for the cleric...
Some fantasy/middle ages clerics are not knowledgeable at all. Some take more "militant" roles, as it can be actually seen in a decent weapon and armor training. They may have been initiated in the rites and stuff, but that does not make them knowledgeable (even in Religion, in extreme cases). I think that the "knowledgeable cleric" is covered by the Cloistered Cleric variant class (is it in SRD UA?), more knowledge, less combat power.
Wizards seem pretty absorbed in their spellcasting learning, but, as you said, high Int compensates, and an average wizard is going to have a bunch of skill slots (say 5 per level for an Int 16 nonhuman wizard). Take away 1 for Concentration and another one for Spellcraft and the rest, unless the wizard has an unusual non-scholarly background, probably will be Knowledges, Linguistics, Craft or Profession (normally Arcana +2 others). If you get the possibility of extra points or bonuses via feats, that's pretty decent IMO.
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I actually like this. If it were me, I'd drop it down to two. Two every level is more than enough. But the reason I really like this is that it's something I tend to give my players anyway. Two points extra per level to spend on knowledge, craft or profession for those that have less than 4 skill points. But I like this, because it gives players the chance to adapt their characters(and honestly this is only if you cut that wizard bit out) to be more diverse. Specifically, knowledge skills add to the fun of game play and I could definitely see my cleric taking this for knowledge history or blacksmithing or profession dancer(I might also add perform to the list if there was a good reason to have all of the skills chosen). And it would let non-intelligent based classes have a crack at some of the allaround usefulness that usually only wizards and bards get. I like it.
Wizards get decent skill ranks. Let's see...
Start with an 18, add two for elf or human, a 20 gives +5/L. Add the 2 from the class and 1/L from favored class and you are looking at 8 skill ranks/L. Not too shabby and not even optimized.
I think I would rather see some feats that give bonus skill ranks as opposed to built-in class features.
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I agree with the concept of most wizards being bookish and scholarly in theory but also tend to agree with the observation that simply giving additional skill ranks in Knowledge skills essentially just gives them more ranks overall.
I think going the Feat route instead is more a step in the right direction, since it allows a player to play a bookish and scholarly wizard if they want to but does not force them to ...
However, I think many would see this as kind of a waste of a feat.
Why not make it ... a Trait? Now that Pathfinder seems to be using these more and more (which I think is a very cool thing to do, by the way - Traits are a great idea), this seems like the way to go. It keeps things modular, does not alter the core class needlessly and it encourages the player to develop the character's background.
This kind of thing actually seems fairly tailor made for a Trait, in fact.
Giving the Wizard an ability to gain knowledges and crafts in addition to their skill points already is fine by me. I just never have enough to be who I need to.
Granted I haven't actually played Pathfinder yet, this is experience from 3.5.