Linguistics a closer look.....

[Steven Hume]

i am looking at using this in my game i would like some comments. i never liked how PCs could just add langs like it was easy to pick up troll and then could understand every word in the lang, i think even though it adds another roll into the game it gives some realism to learning langs.

Linguistics: Every 3 ranks gain access to new lang. You get Basic understanding and as you add more ranks get a better understanding of that lang. Another 3 ranks after learning lang you are Competent, and 3 after that(6 total) you are Master. After 12 ranks from when you took it you speak like a native. Basic you can understand single words but not sentences with DC 15 check. Compentant you can make sentences and put across a idea with a DC 15 check. Master you can use every day and understand 80% of what you hear but still need to make DC 15 for some complete ideas. Natives dont need to check. Those bonus lang a pc picks at 1st lvl they gain competent level and after 3 ranks more onto to master and so on....

commnents guys??

[stonechild]

I do agree that getting a language with every point spent in linguistics seems a bit much. I was thinking every other but every three sounds pretty good too. Also I like the idea of a skill check to communicate or perhaps to understand something being said, if it's not one of your starting languages. However the multiple skill ranks equals higher proficiency seems a little too complex. I'd just up the DC to get across or understand more complex sentences.

[Saurstalk]

I was going with every other (1 = speak + 1 = read/write). But then I got to thinking of how few ranks exist for some characters. So, picking up a new language can become a significant sacrifice for others.

Where it becomes imbalanced is when the wizard, rogue, bard, or whoever pumps ranks into Linguistics to better decipher scripts and as an added bonus, gets a slew of ranks along the way.

This is a tough one.

[Steven Hume]

Well i was thinking of just having a level beside the lang so

Common(N), Elf(B), Gnoll(C),Troll(M), Drow(N)

it would be easy to track like that and after 3 point each goes up by one, simple. Also i would make it every 3 Skill points not ranks so those with class skill get a upgrade automatic and a another lang added, then when they start to add more get to get better.

[Steven Hume]

Saurstalk wrote:

I was going with every other (1 = speak + 1 = read/write). But then I got to thinking of how few ranks exist for some characters. So, picking up a new language can become a significant sacrifice for others.

Where it becomes imbalanced is when the wizard, rogue, bard, or whoever pumps ranks into Linguistics to better decipher scripts and as an added bonus, gets a slew of ranks along the way.

This is a tough one.

It might need to be broken back into a lang skill again, as i said i will be testing this so i will get back to you all what i find

[Robert Brambley]

I've actually been using 4 skill points per language; but the main difference is that you don't have finish one before you take another. Essentially each language you're taking is a new "skill" of its own.

1) You start off at 1st level literate in number of languages equal to your INT modifier + the automatic language you get per your race.

2) You can only put one rank to any one language per level. So that it takes a few levels to get full mastery over any one language from the time you actually being learning it.

3) Barbarians still start off as illiterate and will need to spend a skill point to become literate (per language).

4) Bards automatically gain Literacy Level upon the third rank put in a language.

1 rank: "Pigin" -10 to all language based skill checks (diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, etc.) +4 to saving throws based on language

2 ranks: "Rudimentary" -4 to all language based skill checks (diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, etc.) +2 to saving throws based on language

3 ranks: "Fluent" (no modifiers)

4 ranks: "Literate" can now Read/write that language

Essentially - at any time a person could theoretically have

Pigin in Orc, Fluent in Elf, Literacy in Gnome and Rudimentary in Draconic.

(this is based off of a system I've been using for years.)

Robert

[Dragonchess Player]

As I stated in this thread:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

I would also like to see learning languages separated from Linguistics. This "auto-learning" makes Linguistics too powerful, IMO.

Starting languages should be handled as normal, with additional languages purchased as follows (basically using the 3.x Speak Language as a "cross-class" skill, but including a partial benefit):

1pt gives the ability to convey and understand basic information (simple concepts like "how much?" or "which way?"); effectively what Linguistics should provide, but without the need for a skill roll
2pts gives full fluency

Optionally, this could only apply to spoken communication, requiring an additional point for literacy.

[Steven Hume]

i redo some of this with help from your posts.

First, all characters are considered to be illiterate, even in their native language other than Wizard and cleric. You can spent 1 skill point to read/write.
Most characters begin play with fluency in at least one their automatic languages and varying levels of competence in other automatic languages. Also note you dont get Common only your Native language as fluent. Additionally, rather than gaining bonus languages for high Intelligence modifiers, starting characters instead gain two points per Intelligence bonus to spend on gaining competence of automatic or bonus languages. Characters may not begin play with competence in languages other than those listed as automatic or bonus languages. Some languges provide a variation on synergy with one another. When a character gains a level of competence in a language (called the primary language) that shares Alphabets in another language (called the related language), his competence in the related language immediately increases. If the character already has that level of competence in the related language, then he gains no benefit from the competence increased granted by the primary language. A character that learns or improves a language after 1st level can only advance it one competence level per level, mimicking the natural growth of linguistic mastery over time. If you are less than fluent in a language you are attempting to use with certain skills, you may suffer penalties on skill checks with them, as shown below.

Linguistics: Every 3 ranks gain access to new lang. Your Fluent in Native language. You can then use your points from from high Int to learn new languages. Each point gains you a competence level, so it takes 3 to be Fluent in 1 language. When adding ranks to Linguistics each rank gives you an increase in competence of one of your languages, and 3 ranks allows you to learn a new lang at Basic instead of increasing one already known. You skill in read/write equals your speach in a language.

None Body language is the only thing you can use. -30 to all language based skill checks (diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, etc.)
Basic you can understand single words but not sentences with DC 15 check,-10 to all language based skill checks (diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, etc.), +4 to saving throws based on language.
Rudimentary you can make sentences and put across a idea with a DC 15 check,-4 to all language based skill checks (diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, etc.) +2 to saving throws based on language.
Fluency you can use every day and understand 95% of what you hear.

[thefishcometh]

I posted this this set of rules in another thread and I am quite enamored with them. It needs some tweaking, but doesn't everything?

Spoiler:

thefishcometh wrote:

A character starts out knowing all of their automatic languages, as well as a number of languages of their choice equal to their Intelligence modifier. If a character wishes to learn a new language at a later time, they may begin studying by making a Linguistics check against a language's DC. Sample DCs are shown below. They must have some means of studying, be it either a teacher, texts, or contact with fluent speakers. If their check is successful, the next time they gain a level or Hit Dice, they may add the chosen language to their languages known list. If their check fails, they cannot try to learn that language until they have gained a level. Learning a language is complex, and the DM may alter the amount of time that is required to learn a language as the circumstances permit. It is recommended that characters only be allowed to learn one language per level. Once a character is fluent in a language, they can identify regional or racial dialects by making a Linguistics check against a language's DC. This check cannot be retried until a character's Linguistics modifier has increased.

Sample DCs:
DC 10: Common, Orc
DC 15: Dwarven, Goblin, Halfling
DC 20: Elven, Gnome
DC 25: Draconic, Aquan, Ignan
DC 30: Infernal, Celestial, Druidic
A character with a fluent teacher receives a +5 bonus on their check.

[Steven Hume]

thefishcometh wrote:

I posted this this set of rules in another thread and I am quite enamored with them. It needs some tweaking, but doesn't everything?

** spoiler omitted **

i understand the last 2 being hardest but orc is not as easy as you make it, they make sounds that humans cant, i think it should be based on the creatures type. so humanoid 15, monsterous huamaniod 20, ect.

[thefishcometh]

Steven Hume wrote:

i understand the last 2 being hardest but orc is not as easy as you make it, they make sounds that humans cant, i think it should be based on the creatures type. so humanoid 15, monsterous huamaniod 20, ect.

It isn't the difficulty of speaking a language that is covered by this ruling, just the difficulty of learning it. Orc may have some very difficult sounds and it's own complexities, but comparatively, it is simple. I'm also going on the basis that it is closely related to whatever human tongue or pidgin is around. The closer a language is to one's own, the easier it is to learn. That's why German is so easy for english speakers to learn but the Chinese is nigh impossible. But, if anybody wants Orc to be a more complex or alien tongue, go for it! The example DCs are just guidelines.

[Selgard]

From a real-world perspective I understand where you all are coming from- learning multiple languages can be daunting.

From a game mechanics standpoint though, I am confused.
Why does it matter if a character knows a half-dozen language? A dozen? or even all of them?

Spells and magical items that give you this ability are relatively common place and if I remember correctly- are also relatively cheap.

Knowing a language is hardly "powerful". In fact, for alot of languages, it's hardly worth one skill point- much less several. Lets face it: How often do the PC's need the Giant tongue? Not very often. Some are very common however- like Elven, Dwarven and Draconic. It isn't broken, however, for a PC to know them all. If anything it adds a little flavor. The fighter struggling to know his own language while the wizard can readily prattle about in 6, fluently.

I understand where you are all coming from in an RT sense of learning languages, I just fail to see where it's a problem that needs to be backed up by excessive skill point cost and heavy rules.

-S

[Steven Hume]

Selgard wrote:

From a real-world perspective I understand where you all are coming from- learning multiple languages can be daunting.

From a game mechanics standpoint though, I am confused.
Why does it matter if a character knows a half-dozen language? A dozen? or even all of them?

Spells and magical items that give you this ability are relatively common place and if I remember correctly- are also relatively cheap.

Knowing a language is hardly "powerful". In fact, for alot of languages, it's hardly worth one skill point- much less several. Lets face it: How often do the PC's need the Giant tongue? Not very often. Some are very common however- like Elven, Dwarven and Draconic. It isn't broken, however, for a PC to know them all. If anything it adds a little flavor. The fighter struggling to know his own language while the wizard can readily prattle about in 6, fluently.

I understand where you are all coming from in an RT sense of learning languages, I just fail to see where it's a problem that needs to be backed up by excessive skill point cost and heavy rules.

i agree that, is why speak lang was never used, also that is why they dont need to pay for them, its part of the skill, that still does alot of other things so as they put points into that skill they get languages as well.

[Saurstalk]

I think that the best way to approach Linguistics would be to keep the one rank system, but take the approach that at character creation you only get your base languages, i.e., common for humans and common + race for the other races. This will make Lingusitics more sensical for everyone and also increase the value of taking on new languages.

[Shadowdweller]

Think I'd favor something like Mr. Brambley's suggestion most so far, myself. Makes for a convenient way to keep the skill useful in spite of spells such as Tongues, Read/Comprehend language, etc: The spells would only grant low-quality communication/comprehension.

Might be better reduce it down to 2 levels though for simplicity and backwards compatibility. At 1 point, you take a -4 penalty to language-defendant skill checks, -2 to spell save DCs, and can't read/write. At level 2 you become fully fluent. Hrm, suppose this probably needs more consideration to test if it's worthwhile.

[Robert Brambley]

Shadowdweller wrote:

Think I'd favor something like Mr. Brambley's suggestion most so far, myself. Makes for a convenient way to keep the skill useful in spite of spells such as Tongues, Read/Comprehend language, etc: The spells would only grant low-quality communication/comprehension.

Might be better reduce it down to 2 levels though for simplicity and backwards compatibility. At 1 point, you take a -4 penalty to language-defendant skill checks, -2 to spell save DCs, and can't read/write. At level 2 you become fully fluent. Hrm, suppose this probably needs more consideration to test if it's worthwhile.

Thanks. Try with 2 and see how it works. Its not going to break it. Personally I wouldn't use less than three; and have been using four since I started a Midnight Campaign in 03; and it's worked quite well for us.

And Robert is fine. "Mr.Brambley" makes me feel old. ;-) I've been gaming D&D for 26 years - but I don't want to sound old! lol

Robert

[Onion 316]

Selgard wrote:

From a real-world perspective I understand where you all are coming from- learning multiple languages can be daunting.

I really don't understand this sentiment, nor the angst so many people feel over getting a language down for every point spent.

Firstly, once you understand grammar, learning any language is relatively easy. It really is only a matter of learning vocabulary.

Secondly, in a world where languages are in constant contact (as they are in any fantasy world that accepts the SRD or PFRPG rules as written), vocabulary gets borrowed all the time (even from languages of enemies). This makes learning vocabulary that much easier.

Thirdly, who in the world would waste three skill points to learn one measly language?

Seriously folks, for someone so inclined to learn multiple languages, it isn't all that difficult, especially in a world where trade between races is common (as is suggested by the way the SRD and PFRPG are written).

[thefishcometh]

My issue with it is the possibility for a PC to learn a new language in one day while they level up. I like at least a little realism in my game, or my disbelief is no longer suspended. That's why I use a skill-check system, learning a new language is no longer associated with leveling up, but instead with studying a new language. If you're good with languages, you can learn a new one quickly. If you're not, it takes a long time.

[nblade]

thefishcometh wrote:

My issue with it is the possibility for a PC to learn a new language in one day while they level up. I like at least a little realism in my game, or my disbelief is no longer suspended. That's why I use a skill-check system, learning a new language is no longer associated with leveling up, but instead with studying a new language. If you're good with languages, you can learn a new one quickly. If you're not, it takes a long time.

While, I understand your problem. While one is advancing from level to level you are assumed to be studying / improving. If you wanted to do something were you would take learning time into account. You could do something like have the players spend the points for their next level (sort of like Rolemaster use to do) and then do the skill increases when they level up. You could even allow them to gain partial skill increases when they reach half way through a level. To be honest, I think it's more trouble than its worth but that's just my 2 gold pennies worth.

[Robert Brambley]

Onion 316 wrote:

Thirdly, who in the world would waste three skill points to learn one measly language?

Seriously folks, for someone so inclined to learn multiple languages, it isn't all that difficult, especially in a world where trade between races is common (as is suggested by the way the SRD and PFRPG are written).

Good point, indeed. It does help that no class has less than 4 skill points per level as a base.

Robert

[Shadowdweller]

Onion 316 wrote:

I really don't understand this sentiment, nor the angst so many people feel over getting a language down for every point spent.

Because:

* Having problems communicating due to poor grasp and/or pronunciation is a big and common issue in the real world, and seems like it would be great for RP.

* Because I want people who invest in a language to feel special, and that doesn't happen when everyone can learn every language present in a campaign by level 6 or so.

* Because from both a dramatic and tactical perspective I want savage humanoids to be able to communicate without the PCs automatically understanding what is being said.

=> Cue scenes of captured PCs trying to tell if they're about to feted or feasted upon.

[Selgard]

Onion 316,

If you read the rest of my post (instead of just the first sentence you quoted) you will see that I'm in complete agreement with the fact that the system as written is just fine.

Languages -are- complicated to learn. The fact that it's made easier by our common language origins still doesn't make it "easy". It's just easier than it otherwise would be.

I can only imagine the difficulty in learning a language not only dissimilar to my own, but created and used by an entirely different species.

That has nothing to do really with the question of whether or not Linquistics should give 1 language per rank.
It's fine for it to do so nto because of the ease/difficulty in learning languages in reality- but because languages aren't really "worth" alot in D&D. Especially not once you have the party universal translator willing and able to read and speak anything the group may come across.

Languages in D&D, while a neat bit of flavor, are really no barrier to anything except at very very low levels. It's a very mundane barrier that is very easily overcome without skill points, and so forcing people to spend 2-3 per language is actually a rule stating that no one will learn new languages.

-S

[Shadowdweller]

Selgard wrote:

It's a very mundane barrier that is very easily overcome without skill points, and so forcing people to spend 2-3 per language is actually a rule stating that no one will learn new languages.

In my experience, that is simply not true. Speak Language in 3.x was one of the most commonly taken cross-class skills (at two skill points per language). Furthermore, since ALL multi-point systems proposed so far allow -some- understanding of a language with the investment of only one single point...

[Eyebite]

I think linguistics should be harder to pick up to reflect more realistic application. I hate it when a PC spends a few skill points here and there and ends up being fluent in 15 languages by level 5. (Exaggerating only slightly here.)

We are currently using a house rule for languages in a game I'm playing in, which is remarkably similar to the house rules I've been using for some time. With a fair bit of playtesting, the following has worked quite well and has put the value back into linguistics.

In a nutshell:

1) A character's intelligence bonus determines how many total languages a character is fluent in (i.e. requires no skill checks to use at all). A character that is capable of speech is always fluent in at least one language/their native language regardless of intelligence bonus.

2) Beyond this limit, a character must spend skill points in a particular language to acquire it, but even then they are not fluent in it.

For the first three skill points spent, a character may choose to be either able to speak, read, or write a new language (one point per each). The character then has "Spanish" +3 (Read/Write/Speak) for a skill (for example, plus their intelligence bonus). Anytime the character encounters "Spanish" spoken/written/what have you, they must roll against a DC to understand what was said - with near successes conveying some, but not all, of the information. (For the first three ranks, a character can only understand/use "spanish" in the form they know it in - either to write it, speak it, or read it.)

3) If the character's intelligence later goes up, they may add any of the languages that they have at least 3 ranks in as one of their fluent languages - and the skill points accrued can then be shifted automatically to another language they have ranks in (or an entirely new language).

4) I have a homebrew feat, "Polyglot" that allows a character to become fully fluent in an additional two languages of their choice (except secret languages).

5) If a character has 10 ranks in a language, they become completely fluent in that language.

6) Linguistics is a class skill for everyone

7) Ancient variations of a language known and/or strange dialects can also be deciphered by someone with ranks in the language, but the DC is raised appropriately.

This limits the languages a character can know, adds some objective realism to the skill, and makes languages that much more useful/worth learning.

[Eyebite]

Oh, almost forgot -

8. The dreaded Comprehend Languages has been nerfed somewhat - it's just WAY too powerful for a first level spell.

Comprehend Languages provides a +1 bonus per spellcaster level to understand the subject language only (the one the caster is trying to understand - NOT *all* languages). This maxes out at level 10 with a +10 bonus (providing total, temporary, fluency in that language.)

A character's ranks in the language are added to the bonus provided by Comprehend Languages, and at +10 the character is fluent in the subject language (for the spell's duration of 10 minutes per level).

(And, FWIW, in my game Comprehend Languages typically makes a mage appear as if a candle flame is flickering from their forehead, similar to the events described in the Biblical Tower of Babel. Mages can of course choose to make this flicker invisible, at will.)

[Eyebite]

and 9. (In case it needs to be said) - Linguistics are trained only, meaning that if you aint got ranks in a particular language, you don't understand it, can't read it, and can't write it. (Except, of course, unless you are the recipient of a Comprehend Languages spell.)

[Steven Hume]

Selgard wrote:

and so forcing people to spend 2-3 per language is actually a rule stating that no one will learn new languages.

-S

as i pointed it in last post, the skill does not ONLY give you languages it does other things as well, but ALSO it gives you a new language increase for every point you put in, its a BONUS extra, plus, on top of the normal skill use. at least the system i posted does.