After looking as the aplha 3 relase of Pathfinder, I have to say this is what I was looking for.
Its awesome, and everyone is really beifed, which leads me to wonder. What about the Fighter? After looking his class over he's definately the 7th wonder-warrior of the world. The Bravery, Weapons and Armor training are all really awesome and I hope they stay, but is it enough?
Maybe the fighter could get a choice of abilites the way a Barbarian gets the rage powers or the rogue gets the talents?
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No, because Fighter likes swords. It's all he's good at or smart enough to figure out. Okay maybe we could give him swordchucks.
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Okay seriously. I think it's fine to leave one class who's only ability is to lay down the law with a flash of steel and the twang of a bow string. If you give the fighter a bunch of talents or powers like rogues or barbarians you run the risk of stepping into territory that some might dislike. There are plenty of fighter-style classes that get flashy powers like barbarian, ranger, or paladin. In fact in AD&D they were all sub-classes of fighter. IMHO fighters are just fine the way they are. I still want swordchucks though.
I still want swordchucks though.
Why not swordchucks, it can't be any more retarded than 2 bladed sword. You would figure that humanity figured out every possible way of making sharp pointy sticks effective after 4000 years of trying. Strangely enough the 2 ended sword was never considered one of the more effective ways. But Darth Maul uses it so its got to be good... right?
Sorry, back to your normally scheduled thread.
Maybe fighters need to be more powerful at higher levels. I'm not sure I haven't play tested them yet. I do think that they should be kept fairly straight forward though and I'm not a fan of maneuvers or special combat actions in order to make them effective.
Here's a thought... give them 3 good saves :)
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I don't think that the Fighter Talent idea is "too much" as some do. I think this is exactly the way to circumvent some of the non-OGl classes (i.e. Swashbuckler, Samurai, etc.) so that Fighters could be adapted to fit those roles as well. Making Armor Training or Weapon Training into Fighter talents that are stackable or able to be taken multiple times reduces some of the redundancy of these new class features.
I chose Pathfinder over 4E because I feel 3.X has a more versatile feel for character creation. Fighter talents would just be one more customizable choice, as far as I am concerned.
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I still want swordchucks though.Why not swordchucks, it can't be any more retarded than 2 bladed sword. You would figure that humanity figured out every possible way of making sharp pointy sticks effective after 4000 years of trying. Strangely enough the 2 ended sword was never considered one of the more effective ways. But Darth Maul uses it so its got to be good... right?
Actually during the Han Dynasty, the Chinese did develop what has often been described as a two bladed sword. The weapon in question had much shorter blades and a much longer handgrip, so it would be more acurately described as a bladed quarterstaff.
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I think that one of the benefits the fighter has due to not having those sort of things is that there are a number of people out there who want to play a character who is essentially simple and doesn't add a lot of things they have to remember. They avoid spellcasters like the plague, rogues require a lot of tactical use, now even barbarians have rage points to set up. But the fighter is still really good at hitting things in a straightforward way, but there are enough feats that you can make that much more complicated if you do want to and that fills out the class.
-Tarlane
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I think that one of the benefits the fighter has due to not having those sort of things is that there are a number of people out there who want to play a character who is essentially simple and doesn't add a lot of things they have to remember. They avoid spellcasters like the plague, rogues require a lot of tactical use, now even barbarians have rage points to set up. But the fighter is still really good at hitting things in a straightforward way, but there are enough feats that you can make that much more complicated if you do want to and that fills out the class.
-Tarlane
Well I suggested a talent-based feat system that fighters get ever even level - but the beauty of it is - that these talents are a CHOICE or option to take INSTEAD of a feat at the players option. These are things I'm adding to my campaign and have been playtesting them 2-3 days a week.
Those feeling as you indicated Tarlane, can continue to add feats and be simple and as base and broad as they like.
As an alternate, the talents can help specify and specialize in areas a fighter may typically want to excel at - making them better at these things than any other character type can hope to do.
I posted them originaly in a thread called Think Tank Fighter - but that was a while ago. I have done much playtesting since then and some have changed as a result.
the spoilers below is the new versions of them. I'm not advocating using them all or exactly as written, but they are working in my games quite well, and those feeling that such ideas as "talent" for a fighter may find some inspiration from them. Bottom line is though if someone doesn't like them, they don't have to take them as they are offered as an option to the bonus feats that fighters get at every even level. If a player doesn't like them, or doesn't feel they fit his need - he can take a fighter feat at any time instead.
Defender Talents
[Designer notes: In my campaign, there is a feat called Shield Specialization (prereq: BAB +1, shield proficiency) that allows you to choose one type of shield and increase the AC by 1 for that shield. (This feat has been included for many years – back to 3rd edition before 3.5 – and well before a similar feat appeared in PHB2) Also in my games, shields provide the following AC bonuses: Buckler 1, light: 2, Heavy: 3, Tower: 5]
Defender
You win fights by outlasting your opponents. Your use and skill with a shield protects you, and prolongs your life. You’re skill with using a shield to deflect killing blows, and absorb lethal damage makes you a force to be reckoned with, and a mighty tank in the face of overwhelming odds. You not only use your shield to protect yourself, but to defend your allies. These Talents apply when fighting with a shield, (other than a buckler). This talent provides you a +1 shield bonus to all touch attacks made against you.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization
Defender II
As Defender, but your shield bonus is +2.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 10
Defender III
As Defender, but your shield bonus is +3.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 18
Absorb Damage I
You gain Damage Reduction 2 / -
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Absorb Damage II
As Absorb Damage I, but your damage reduction is now 4 / -
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Absorb Damage I Talent, Fighter Level 12
Absorb Damage III
As Absorb Damage I, but your damage reduction is now 6 / -
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Absorb Damage I Talent, Absorb Damage II Talent, Fighter Level 18
Defensive Fighting
When choosing the fighting defensive option or full defense option, your AC is increased by 2.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Shield Ally I
As a move action, you can apply your shield bonus to an adjacent ally. The bonus remains in effect only until your next turn, and only while that ally is adjacent to you.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter level 4
Shield Ally II
As Shield Ally I, except you can apply your shield bonus to two adjacent allies.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Shield Ally I Talent, Fighter level 10
Shield Ally III
As Shield Ally I, except you can apply your shield bonus to three adjacent allies.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Shield Ally I Talent, Shield Ally II Talent, Fighter level 16
Shield Basher I
You add +1 to attack rolls and damage to all Shield Bash attempts
PREREQ: Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Shield Basher II
As Shield Basher I, but bonus to hit and damage are +2
PREREQ: Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Shield Basher I Talent, Fighter Level 10
Shield Basher III
As Shield Basher I, but bonus to hit and damage are +3
PREREQ: Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Shield Basher I Talent, Shield Basher II Talent, Fighter Level 16
Shield Charge
When you charge an opponent using a shield bash, if you hit, make an immediate attempt to trip your opponent. Use your attack roll as your CMB check. This trip attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity, nor is your opponent able to trip you back.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Shield Knock-Back
Any time you hit an opponent with your shield bash, you can opt to knock them back 5’ from you, resolved by making a CMB check.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Shield Maneuvers I
You have a +1 to your CMB checks resolved by using your shield.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Shield Maneuvers II
As Shield Maneuvers I, but your bonus is now +2
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Shield Maneuvers I Talent, Fighter Level 10
Shield Maneuvers II
As Shield Maneuvers I, but your bonus is now +3
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Shield Maneuvers I Talent, Fighter Level 16
Shield Parry (option 1)
Once per round, you can choose to “ready an action” to parry an incoming attack. You can only parry one attack per round, and you must be aware of the attack, and be able to see the attacker. Allow the opponent to attack you as normal and apply damage. Your shield deflects an amount of damage equal to your fighter level + your shield bonus. Any damage above that amount is applied to you. Resolve any damage reduction you may have after the shield parries. If you have Shield Ally talent, you can opt to parry an attack being directed at an ally you’re defending.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Shield Parry (option 2)
Once per round, you can choose to “ready an action” to parry an incoming attack. You can only parry one attack per round, and you must be aware of the attack, and be able to see the attacker. Allow the opponent to attack you. The AC that your opponent was able to hit becomes a DC for you to match using an attack roll of your own as if you were making a shield bash attempt. If your attack roll with your shield bash equals or beats the DC, you have successfully parried that attack. Both you and your opponent roll damage. Subtract the damage you would have applied with your shield bash from the damage he would have dealt with his weapon. The remainder of the damage is applied to you. Resolve any damage reduction you may have after the shield parries. If you have Shield Ally talent, you can opt to parry an attack being directed at an ally you’re defending.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Shield Pin
As a standard action, you can use your shield to pin your opponent’s shield against his body so that he is required to free it before it can be used again. Make a CMB check, if you win, his weapon is unusable until your opponent’s turn, in which he must then make a CMB check to free it, or move at least 5’ away from you.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Shield Specialist
Your shield bonus is 1 higher for any type of shield you use (other than a buckler).
PREREQ: Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Shield Warding
Apply your Shield bonus to defend against Combat Maneuvers.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Defensive Fighting Talent, Fighter Level 8
Stalwart Defender I
As a swift action, choose 1 opponent within reach. If you hit this opponent with a melee attack, and the opponent chooses to attack one of your allies instead, on your next turn, you gain a +2 to your attack rolls against that target, and a damage equal to ½ your fighter level. This bonus continues until the creature makes a full attack option against you. You can only have one marked target at any given time.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Stalwart Defender II
As Goading Strike I, except that you can have 2 creatures as marked targets, though you can only mark one per round.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Stalwart Defender Talent, Fighter Level 10
Stalwart Defender III
As Goading Strike I, except that you can have 2 creatures as marked targets, though you can only mark one per round.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Stalwart Defender Talent, Stalwart Defender Talent III, Fighter Level 16
Stalwart Defender Specialist
If you make a successful melee attack against someone you have dubbed the victim of your Stalwart Defender Talent, you are able to make an immediate attack of opportunity against him if he takes any aggressive action towards any of your allies, or he moves away from you for any reason.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Stalwart Defender Talent, Fighter Level 8
Tower Shield Bash
You can make bash attacks with your Tower Shield.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Tower Shield Combat Talent, Fighter Level 6
Tower Shield Combat
The penalty for fighting with a Tower Shield is reduced to only -1
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 4
Weapon Pin
As a standard action, you can use your shield to pin your opponent’s weapon against his body so that he is required to free it before it can be used again. Make a CMB check, if you win, his weapon is unusable until your opponent’s turn, in which he must then make a CMB check to free it, or move at least 5’ away from you.
PREREQ: Shield Specialization, Improved Shield Bash, Defender Talent, Fighter Level 6
Defensive Stance
The areas you threaten with your shield bash are harder for your enemies to navigate through. Each such threatened square counts as 2 squares of movement, and applies a -2 penalty to tumble checks by your opponents, as if it was difficult terrain.
PREREQ: Any Fighter Talent; Fighter Level 8
Juggernaut Talents
Juggernaut
Your fighting style specializes in big powerful weapons and brute strength to guide them while heedlessly charging at the head of the enemy. Decked in the heaviest armor you can carry, your presence on the battlefield alone is enough to make all but the most stalwart warrior look for a retreat. The Juggernaut talents provide you with a myriad of slobber-knocking, mayhem-causing, and damage-dealing feats that only the most bold of men dare to learn. The talents only apply when wielding a 2-handed weapon. This talent grants a +1 Bonus to attack rolls when charging.
PREREQ: Power Attack
Juggernaut II
As Juggernaut, but the bonus is +2.
PREREQ: Power Attack, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 10
Juggernaut III
As Juggernaut, but the bonus is +3.
PREREQ: Power Attack, Juggernaut Talent, Juggernaut Talent III, Fighter Level 18
Annihilating Charge I
Once a day, when charging, you can take a full attack action, either doing attacking with all of your attack, or using an ability or feat that require a full attack action (such as Vital Strike).
PREREQ: Power Attack, Overhand Chop, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 8
Annihilating Charge II
As Annihilating Charge I, but can be done two times per day.
PREREQ: Power Attack, Overhand Chop, Juggernaut Talent, Annihilating Charge II, Fighter Level 16
Bull Rush Tactics
+2 to all Bull Rush Attempts, and to resist being Bull Rushed
PREREQ: Improved Bull Rush, Juggernaut Talent; Fighter Level 6
Bull Rush Specialist
During your standard action in which you bull rush an opponent, you can strike to damage him first. Resolve your attack first, apply damage as applicable and then resolve the bull rush attempt.
PREREQ: Improved Bull Rush, Juggernaut Talent, Bull Rush Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Bulldozer
After bull rushing your opponent, you have the ability of knocking him prone to the ground. Roll a CMB check to resolve the bull rush. Determine how far you were able to push him. If your CMB result was enough to knock him prone using the normal rules for Overrun Manuever, you also successfully knock the opponent prone at the end of the movement you pushed him backwards. You can then end your movement at that point, or choose continue up to the extent of your movement allowed that round as per the Overrun Manuever.
PREREQ: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Juggernaut Talent, Bullrush Tactics Talent, Bullrush Specialist Talent, Overrun Tactics Talent, Overrun Specialist Talent, Fighter Level 14
Deadly Backswing
Your Backswing attacks do full strength damage.
PREREQ: Overhand Chop, Backswing, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 10
Deadly Power Attack
When power attacking, you gain a +2 damage to all successful attacks.
PREREQ: Power Attack, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 4
Fearsome Presence
Your martial prowess in combat easily demoralizes your enemies. Using an intimidate skill to “demoralize” a foe is only a move action for you.
PREREQ: Intimidating Prowess, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 4
Great Critical I
Once a day, you can declare one attack that you have already confirmed a critical attack on to deal damage as if the weapon’s critical damage multiplier was one higher. (For instance a Greatsword will be x3, a greataxe would be x4).
PREREQ: Overhand Chop, Fighter Level 8
Great Critical II
As Great Critical, but can now be done two times per day.
PREREQ: Overhand Chop, Great Critical Talent, Fighter Level 14
Great Critical III
As Great Critical, but can now be done three times per day.
PREREQ: Overhand Chop, Great Critical Talent, Great Critical II Talent, Fighter Level 18
Mighty Cleave
When making a Great Cleave attempt, you can opt to take a 5’ step at any point during the string of attacks on your opponents. For instance you attack your foe successfully, apply damage, and immediately attack a foe adjacent to the first. If successful, you can attack another foe who is adjacent to the first – but you are allowed to take one 5’ step during any of this to help you reach another adjacent target to the initial target.
PREREQ: Cleave, Great Cleave, Juggernaut Talent, Fighter Level 8
Overrun Tactics
+2 to all Overrun Attempts, and to resist being Overrun
PREREQ: Improved Overrun, Juggernaut Talent; Fighter Level 6
Overrun Specialist
Your target can not choose to avoid you when you attempt an overrun.
PREREQ: Improved Overrun, Juggernaut Talent, Overrun Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Powerful Lunge
When charging, you double your strength damage to you attacks with a two-handed weapon.
PREREQ: Power Attack, Overhand Chop, Juggernaut Talent, Deadly Power Attack, Fighter Level 8
Staunch Survivor
Your specialized fighter style, wielding a two-handed weapon has taught you to be tough and resilient. When fighting in your specialized style (two-handed weapon), you are simply tougher than most. You receive a +1 to AC, and +1 to Fort Saves.
PREREQ: Juggernaut Talent; Fighter Level 4
Sunder Tactics
+2 to all Sunder Attempts, and to resist being Sundered
PREREQ: Improved Sunder, Juggernaut Talent; Fighter Level 6
Sunder Specialist
After successfully Sundering a target, the fighter can make an immediate attack against the sundered foe. (Use the same BAB for the attack that you used for the disarm maneuver – in case the successful disarm came from one of your iterative attacks.)
PREREQ: Improved Sunder, Juggernaut Talent, Sunder Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Swashbuckler Talents
Swashbuckler
You’re fighting style specializes in easy to wield one-handed weapons, combined with light and flexible armor. Your flexibility, combined with quick, elusive strikes, parries, and counter-attacks allows you to wear down your foes, and makes you hard to pin down as you dart and dash about you foe confusing and frustrating him. The swashbuckler talents only apply when you are wearing light or no armor, not wearing a shield (other than a buckler), and wielding only one-handed weapons. This talent provides a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC.
PREREQ: Dodge
Swashbuckler II
As Swashbuckler, but Dodge bonus to AC is increased to +2
PREREQ: Dodge, Swashbuckler Talent, Fighter Level 10
Swashbuckler III
As Swashbuckler, but Dodge bonus to AC is increased to +3
PREREQ: Dodge, Swashbuckler Talent, Swashbuckler II Talent, Fighter Level 18
Disarm Tactics
+2 to all Disarm Attempts, and to resist being disarmed
PREREQ: Improved Disarm, Swashbuckler Talent; Fighter Level 6
Disarm Specialist
After successfully disarming a target, the fighter can make an immediate attack against the disarmed foe. (Use the same BAB for the attack that you used for the disarm maneuver – in case the successful disarm came from one of your iterative attacks.)
PREREQ: Improved Disarm, Swashbuckler Talent, Disarm Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Feint Tactics
+2 to all Feint Attempts, and to resist being feinted by others.
PREREQ: Improved Feint, Swashbuckler Talent; Fighter Level 6
Feint Specialist
After successfully performing a feint maneuver against a target, you can perform a move action that would ordinarily provoke an attack of opportunity without actually provoking it from that target.
PREREQ: Improved Feint, Swashbuckler Talent, Feint Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Fencing Defense
When using Combat Expertise, and fighting with one hand free, you are able to turn your body sideways to provide a smaller target to your foe. You receive an additional +1 to your AC.
PREREQ: Combat Expert, Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler Talent
Fencing Defense II
As Fencing Defense, but AC is increased by a total of +2
PREREQ: Combat Expert, Swashbuckler Talent, Fencing Defense Talent, Fighter Level 12
Precise Strike
INT modifier applied as a bonus to damage to melee attacks made after the fighter moves at least 10’
PREREQ: Dodge, Mobility, Swashbuckler Talent, Fighter Level 6
Precise Strike II
INT modifier applied as a bonus to damage to all attacks made by the fighter, whether he moves that round or not.
PREREQ: Dodge, Mobility, Swashbuckler Talent, Fighter Level 12
Surprising Trip
When you fight with a one-handed weapon and the other hand is empty, you can choose to make a trip attack with your free hand in lieu of an attack of opportunity that an opponent just provoked from you.
PREREQ: Improved Trip, Swashbuckler Talent; Fighter Level 8
Swift Combatant
Your specialized fighting style of wielding a one-handed weapon with nothing in your other hand, has taught you act quick and agile in your attacks. When fighting in your specialized style (one-handed), you are simply more swift than most. You receive a +1 to Initiative, and a +1 to Reflex Saves.
PREREQ: Swashbuckler Talent, Fighter Level 4
Trip Tactics
+2 to all Trip Attempts, and to resist being Tripped.
PREREQ: Improved Trip, Swashbuckler Talent; Fighter Level 6
Trip Specialist
After successfully tripping an opponent, the fighter can make an immediate attack on the prone foe. (Use the same BAB for the attack that you used for the trip maneuver – in case the successful trip came from one of your iterative attacks.)
PREREQ: Improved Trip, Swashbuckler Talent, Trip Tactics Talent, Fighter Level 10
Weapon Snatch
When you fight with a one-handed weapon and the other hand is empty, you automatically catch the weapon out of the air after you successfully disarm your foe.
PREREQ: Improved Disarm, Swashbuckler Talent; Fighter Level 8