Ultimately, I think it also prevents the otherwise inevitable "but I'm different" streak that spawned Drizzt in the first place, because no matter how much you define them as monsters, someone will eventually want to play one. :P
And I will never ever again have to listen to a white 18 year old middle class kid say "It's because I'm black isn't it" in a game of D&D again.
I've thought about it, and will alter my previous post slightly:
The "main problem" with the drow as PC's seems to be the stereotype.
Most folks seem, for whatever reason, to accept a savage orc who calms down enough to be semi-civilized. Same with gnolls and minotaurs and a few other of the "savage" type races out there.
When people play Drow though they aren't playing to or from a racial stereotype, they typically try to play to a particular character. It's not so much "drow PC bad" as it is "Drizz't clone bad".
The novels and sourcebooks have setup varied and sundry "not evil" drow tha can exist, either the Vaerhun (sp? butchered that one, I know) and Eilustree (another butcher, i'm sure), but yet still every single drow PC I see is a dual wielding scimitar green cloak cat toting clone of the D-man.
If a PC drow came from the position of being a *Drow* who was trying to be good, and as such had the foils and foibles of a drow (trouble trusting others, always expecting others to backstab them, etc) rather than the 'I am good and everyone loves me, we should hate drow together" attitude, I don't think it would seem as terrible.
That is one thing that set the 2nd novel drow (liriel? for the life of me I can't spell today..oi!) apart from the D-man. she was very much still a drow, even as she tried somewhat to fit into the land above.
I think people cringe far more from the "d-man clone" than they do from "drow turned surface" simply because the 2nd has a ton of possibility, where as most of us have already read the D-man's story and don't really want to see a poor imitation lived out for us on the table-top.
-S
I think drow should be absolutely white and pale. Perhaps slightly translucent, with dark blood in their thin veins. They should look like something bleached from a few millenia without the sun. Black drow are a habit, and carry a wealth of associations. You did it for bugbears. Do it for drow. I know the art is already done. Too late for such a change.Yeah, pale-skinned with bulbous eyes like blind cave fish!
As for the existing art; maybe she's wearing bluey-black sun-screen (SPF 150!)?
Maybe the high ranking drow that never come to the surface are all pale-skinned and the skin of those that do get the surface turn black on exposure to sunlight. So the drow who are deep in the ground look like pale things and the ones most likely to be met by adventurers are the ebon skinned critters we all know and love. It could be a nasty surprise the first time adventurers encounter the pale-skinned drow and assume they are something else and it would explain the artwork that has already been done.
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Just to chime in my vote, I think that Moorcock's take on Melnibone (or however that is spelled) would be a great fit for drow. In my mind, the deals with and worshipping of demons, complete debauchery and depravity of the society not to mention the arrogance and sense of entitlement to rule the "lesser races". They also have the deep-rooted connection with all sorts of magic (straight sorcery, a form of "pact" magic, inherent skill handed down through bloodlines etc) and a history with martial supremacy.
You could also more closely tie them to the natural forces of chaos (say to pay reverence to an incarnation of chaos) as Moorcock did.
I don't mean that you should completely rip off Moorcock's creations...but I think that is a fine template that captures the essence of the archetypal drow evil. Haughty, amoral, jaded and very much aware of their own penchant for doling out suffering.
Just my two coppers.
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Incidentally, they are Loviatar worshippers if I remember correctly rather than Lolth.Yeah, Loviatar rather than Lolth. Always wanted to do something in the southern reaches of Faerun.
Loviatar would make a totally cool goddess of strength and pride and honor, believing that pain culls the weakness out of a person (and inflicting pain on others has the twin 'benefits' of either breaking them to teach them their place, as a lesser, someone who refuses to accept that pain will come to everyone in the end, or inciting them to rise up and find their own strength). Instead of all debauched pleasurepain kinky crap, she'd be ruthless and hard, because the world is ruthless and hard, and only people who have learned that lesson early and toughened themselves against the forces that the world will array against them deserve to be in charge, rather than waiting all soft and defenseless, clinging to their cowardly desperate hopes that nothing bad will ever happen in their life, and taking no action to prepare themselves.
Most of the artwork just makes them seem like dominatrixes and pain-fetishists. Yawn. I can get enough of that in real life.
Well, as far as dark elves done right goes, I have to add a vote for Warhammer. They've just got so much history behind them. You also get the sense that the dark elves are an active force in the world, stirring up trouble between the other races, launching raids, even capturing foreign territories. Heck, the dark elves set up the War of the Beard, leading to the decline of the elven and dwarven civilisations. Contrast this to your typical drow, who tend to focus their attentions inwards, perhaps banding together every so often to inflict a bit of woe on the surface world, but never achieving anything lasting.
Warhammer's dark elves can be and are mistaken for high elves, a fact that they use to ruthless advantage, tricking enemies into believing that they will offer honourable terms of surrender, then carting anyone who buys the ruse off into slavery. I wouldn't mind seeing elves raised among drow used for just such a purpose (if they prove sufficiently ruthless and disdainful of their kin, of course).
And then of course there are the social details. No male sorcerers, lest they grow to rival the Witch King. Witch elves, fanatical followers of the god of murder, who are turned loose on the populace for one night a year in an orgy of bloodletting. The watchtowers which guard against incursions from the Chaos Wastes, with the worship of the Dark Gods officially outlawed, but nevertheless practiced at the highest level. Beastmasters who enslave creatures ranging from hydras to dragons to the great sea serpents upon whose backs ships of war are built. And underlying it all, the constant scrabble for power.
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Plot & Poison had a portrayal of Dark Elves that followed a 'Spider Queen' sort of primary goddess and her 'Eight Claws,' each gods of a specific school of magic.
One bit I liked, because reminded me of older unseelie stuff, was the priesthood of the goddess of Illusion/Deception/Mists would hold great festivals, with heartbreakingly beautiful pleasure slaves and intoxicating aromas and the most succulent foodstuffs, all arrayed in ornate splendor. Anyone who isn't hopelessly naive would know that it was all lies and illusion, and that the food would be waste and scraps, or even spoiled, the pleasure slaves too old and worn-out to be usable in any other capacity, etc. The Dark Elves would feast and frolic amid this illusion, grateful if they leave the party with nothing worse than an upset stomach. Sometimes, under cover of the pageantry and sensory displays, scores would be settled as well, and the element of danger only added to the 'fun.'
I always liked the notion that elven/dark elven stuff is part-real, part-glamour, so the notion that the dark elves would be having a party surrounded by rot and slaves that can barely stand, but see it as glorious decadence, all glittering jewels, heady fragrances and unearthly beauty.
Having the 'magical' fey-folk live lives that are as much fantasy as reality, trapped in a haze of glamor, ignoring the broken-down conditions around them, 'partying in the ashes' of their own decay, as it were, sounds very very neat. The all-powerful dreaded dark elves would live out their illusions in their phantasmagorical 'kingdom' under the hill, not even admitting to themselves the far fallen state of their people, emaciated exiles, huddled in caves, eating scraps.
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The only thing I love to hate about the drow is when I have PC's that want to play them....they play them all Emo and Goth like. Ugh.Or lesbians.
YES!!! Especially when the male PC's play a female cleric...the cleric ends up being all "whorey", running around with little to no clothes on and trying to sleep their way out of everything. I finally ended up stating that drow don't exist in my world.
I respect that everyone has had some bad experiences with the Drow...
But after reading some of these posts I have to wonder, was it the Drow, or did your players just have disturbing personal issues or a lack of maturity?
And really, I don't mean to slam any poster in this thread, I'm just pointing out that you can take almost any concept in the game and @#$! it up if you try.
I mean, game systems aside- look at World of Darkness. Any version of it (Vampire and Werewolf being prime examples) you can convert to something shallow and contrived and trite with just one craptastic player and a little mental masturbation.
I respect that everyone has had some bad experiences with the Drow...
But after reading some of these posts I have to wonder, was it the Drow, or did your players just have disturbing personal issues or a lack of maturity?
And really, I don't mean to slam any poster in this thread, I'm just pointing out that you can take almost any concept in the game and @#$! it up if you try.
I would definitely agree. I think we need to not get too far off subject, and perhaps focus more on the themes we would like to see.
So far, I'm very positive on the general sound of a vicious, debauched, and depraved demon-worshipping society. I also like very much the idea of a direct relationship between being a dark elf, and being an evil/monstrous/demon-worshipping/etc type, whereby dark elves that do 'turn good' can be turned back into elves, and elves that turn evil can become tainted into dark elves.
I like these things because it covers the 'classic' feel of the drow as scary monsters ("oh %$#%, drow!"), provides a reasonable explanation for how the dark elves came to be, and creates a channel for those stories of redemption or fall from grace that may arise, that avoids the cliche stereotypes we normally associate with it from past versions of drow.
I would definitely agree. I think we need to not get too far off subject, and perhaps focus more on the themes we would like to see.
So far, I'm very positive on the general sound of a vicious, debauched, and depraved demon-worshipping society. I also like very much the idea of a direct relationship between being a dark elf, and being an evil/monstrous/demon-worshipping/etc type, whereby dark elves that do 'turn good' can be turned back into elves, and elves that turn evil can become tainted into dark elves.
I like these things because it covers the 'classic' feel of the drow as scary monsters ("oh %$#%, drow!"), provides a reasonable explanation for how the dark elves came to be, and creates a channel for those stories of redemption or fall from grace that may arise, that avoids the cliche stereotypes we normally associate with it from past versions of drow.
Very cool ideas, Fire Wraith.
I am not sure I'm remembering this correctly, but it seems like Tad William's fantasy series, "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" had this concept in it.
That is, two diverging Elven Races from one.. based upon moral and ethical choice. And they literally had a landmark "the Stone of Farewell" where the two groups parted ways from each other...
I'm not sure if it was that series that had an aspect of one group could reclaim the of the other side through voluntary choice.. but I have seen that done.
It also neatly deals with all that "skin pigment while underground" complaints that get bandied about.. because their appearance is a reflection of the soul within... not how ultraviolet light deprived they are.
My hope is that it's not too late for the developers to consider these ideas and incorporate them (assuming they like them in the first place). Deadlines wait for no messageboard!
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It also neatly deals with all that "skin pigment while underground" complaints that get bandied about.. because their appearance is a reflection of the soul within... not how ultraviolet light deprived they are.
Even then, associating darkness with 'taint' isn't even necessary. Elves that live in the sun have the palest skin (grey elves). Elves that live in the deepest woods are nut-brown (grugach). Elves that live in the ocean have green or blue skin.
It wouldn't make a lick of sense, given how every other elf species works, for Drow *not* to have dark skin, just like their dark surroundings.
Elves aren't humans. They don't 'tan.' They adapt to the colors around them. They've been described as matching the colorations around them, and with the races that get the most sun being the palest since the '70s. No reason to retcon them into having melanin now.
Even then, associating darkness with 'taint' isn't even necessary. Elves that live in the sun have the palest skin (grey elves). Elves that live in the deepest woods are nut-brown (grugach). Elves that live in the ocean have green or blue skin.
It wouldn't make a lick of sense, given how every other elf species works, for Drow *not* to have dark skin, just like their dark surroundings.
Elves aren't humans. They don't 'tan.' They adapt to the colors around them. They've been described as matching the colorations around them, and with the races that get the most sun being the palest since the '70s. No reason to retcon them into having melanin now.
::nod::
I think you've posted that before, and it made sense when I read it the first time. Both are worthwhile points of view.
I guess I so dislike the notion of Drow being milky white or albino, and wearing a prodominance of black leather- that I want to put a cigarette out in the very idea of it. Not that I'm all that worried that it's going to happen now (hell, they've ordered art).. but I so hate the very thought pale Drow, that I'd rather there was just no Drow if that was the case.
Okay, so here's an addendum to my original question. Who has done drow right?
Green Ronin.
They got the fleshcrafted equipment, utter disdain for other races, multiple deities, and a complete lack of morality completely right.
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I respect that everyone has had some bad experiences with the Drow...
But after reading some of these posts I have to wonder, was it the Drow, or did your players just have disturbing personal issues or a lack of maturity?
And really, I don't mean to slam any poster in this thread, I'm just pointing out that you can take almost any concept in the game and @#$! it up if you try.
I mean, game systems aside- look at World of Darkness. Any version of it (Vampire and Werewolf being prime examples) you can convert to something shallow and contrived and trite with just one craptastic player and a little mental masturbation.
*Thinks back into his past*
Well, some of them probably were doing it for some mental "playtime"; but mostly they did it to annoy me...
*Thinks back into his past*Well, some of them probably were doing it for some mental "playtime"; but mostly they did it to annoy me...
Lol... Poor Mac.
That's the problem of many a GM. "Do you want to run a game bad enough to put up with these guys?"
Not to presume to lecture, you got to be firm from the start in defining your game, it's style, and your shared vision for the campaign with the players. Hit the "Do's and Don'ts" hard right at the start.. because you can (and probably will) lighten up later.
But it's hard to get control after the game has become something you didn't intend to be.
Hey... back to diet for a sec. I vote against rothe and elves and people. If drow are super-sophisticated (in a decadent, evil way), I'd want them imbibing the extracts from the pineal glands of tortured captives. Things like that. Not just cooking meat on a spit and eating it -- that's OK for orcs, but the drow would be so much more refined (in their own twisted view).
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Hey... back to diet for a sec. I vote against rothe and elves and people. If drow are super-sophisticated (in a decadent, evil way), I'd want them imbibing the extracts from the pineal glands of tortured captives. Things like that. Not just cooking meat on a spit and eating it -- that's OK for orcs, but the drow would be so much more refined (in their own twisted view).
Steal something sideways from Book of Vile Darkness and have the Drow use a technique to distill fear, pain, despair, anguish, etc. from prisoners that they torture / torment / mind**** and drink at parties, to savor the rush of another beings anguish or whatever. There might even be theme parties, where a special incense made from the fear-sweat of slaves that were literally frightened to death permeates the room, putting all of the Drow present into a state of paranoia and heightened awareness. Showing fear, despite the aroma of terror sweeping through everyone, would be gauche, and startling a rival into a breach of composure would be a social 'gotcha.'
At the party, the Drow would stand on a balcony and watch skilled manipulators and illusionists prepare the next batch of slaves, plying them with illusions of valiant escapes, slave uprisings, sweet freedom and reuniting with their families, only to shatter their hopes and joyful reunions, crushing them into despair and hopelessness, so that they can distill that essence for next months party, where any drow who drinks the Wine of Sorrow has to control themselves avoid showing signs of sadness or despair, and they playfully try to get each other to commit suicide, while under the influence of the heightened sense of despair, exposing humilating secrets and the like that they've saved up for this special occasion...
Ah, and then the party of mindless rage, where the extractions from those who die in the throes of frenzy are distilled, and those who sample the hormone-drenched boar meats find themselves on a razor's edge, ready to draw steel over the slightest perceived insult. Striking a superior, as always, is punishable by death, and Drow who want to provoke a rival into a fatal misstep find it much easier to encourage ill-conceived final acts of insult, leading to violence.
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*Thinks back into his past*Well, some of them probably were doing it for some mental "playtime"; but mostly they did it to annoy me...
Lol... Poor Mac.
That's the problem of many a GM. "Do you want to run a game bad enough to put up with these guys?"
Not to presume to lecture, you got to be firm from the start in defining your game, it's style, and your shared vision for the campaign with the players. Hit the "Do's and Don'ts" hard right at the start.. because you can (and probably will) lighten up later.
But it's hard to get control after the game has become something you didn't intend to be.
I did that after I got physically older (my wife still says I'm mentally 14, but thats another story!). I printed up my house rules and let them know what was up...needless to say I don't game with them anymore...but I found a better group...that don't use Drow all that often.
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Steal something sideways from Book of Vile Darkness and have the Drow use a technique to distill fear, pain, despair, anguish, etc. from prisoners that they torture / torment / mind**** and drink at parties, to savor the rush of another beings anguish or whatever. There might even be theme parties, where a special incense made from the fear-sweat of slaves that were literally frightened to death permeates the room, putting all of the Drow present into a state of paranoia and heightened awareness. Showing fear, despite the aroma of terror sweeping through everyone, would be gauche, and startling a rival into a breach of composure would be a social 'gotcha.'
At the party, the Drow would stand on a balcony and watch skilled manipulators and illusionists prepare the next batch of slaves, plying them with illusions of valiant escapes, slave uprisings, sweet freedom and reuniting with their families, only to shatter their hopes and joyful reunions, crushing them into despair and hopelessness, so that they can distill that essence for next months party, where any drow who drinks the Wine of Sorrow has to control themselves avoid showing signs of sadness or despair, and they playfully try to get each other to commit suicide, while under the influence of the heightened sense of despair, exposing humilating secrets and the like that they've saved up for this special occasion...
Ah, and then the party of mindless rage, where the extractions from those who die in the throes of frenzy are distilled, and those who sample the hormone-drenched boar meats find themselves on a razor's edge, ready to draw steel over...
This is a definite must.
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YES!!! Especially when the male PC's play a female cleric...the cleric ends up being all "whorey", running around with little to no clothes on and trying to sleep their way out of everything. I finally ended up stating that drow don't exist in my world.The only thing I love to hate about the drow is when I have PC's that want to play them....they play them all Emo and Goth like. Ugh.Or lesbians.
I actually played a drow female cleric who was celibate, although she did claim to be gay once to fend off the romantic advances of our party's halfling rogue. Ironicly, our DM was letting me play two characters and the duskblade I was playing was interested in the halfling. He had started in the game as her valet as punishment for robbing merchants in the town her father ruled. She eventually began to look at his as a younger brother and then as a potential romantic partner.
Okay all! Work starts on the drow articles today! So if there's anything else you want to throw your votes in for or against, let it be know!
Okay all! Work starts on the drow articles today! So if there's anything else you want to throw your votes in for or against, let it be know!
Quick - double the evil, Wes!
Okay all! Work starts on the drow articles today! So if there's anything else you want to throw your votes in for or against, let it be know!
Make sure you get Nick Logue to help with the really sick and twisted parts. And Richard Pett, too. Because those guys are, you know, really good at that stuff.
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Lots of good ideas here already. Yep, remember to make them evil and scary again. One thing I've been missing, though is the sense of mystery behind them. The Drow are never mooks. They are best as behind the scenes controllers. Make sure there is a layer of intrigue between the PCs and the Drow masterminds. Preferably two of three layers. Players shouldn't even suspect Drow involvement in the plot until at least the third game session.
Now, in my own campaign, there are no Drow. There is a hidden cult among the elves that worships a spider deity and tries to manipulate elven society consiracy theory style. But they have not yet been revealed and driven out to become a separate society and race. Any elf could be a Drow.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If I were to synthesize some of these ideas, I'd have Drow "coming of age" ceremonies where newly-adult Drow sell their souls to one of 12 "established" demons. This fills them with all sorts of negative hyper-emotions, and grants their spell-like powers and spell resistance.
Demons don't like each other, and the demon-infused Drow don't like each other, but their society is built on a strict set of protocols. They subdue their inner, roiling hatreds, desires, and fears, and they get along.
A lot like really evil Vulcans who aren't all that good at calming their passions. Or, as someone's said, like White Wolf's Embraced.
As soon as the PC's meet one Drow clan, and figure out what they're like, along comes another cadre, indentured to a different demon lord, and they're Chaotic Evil in an entirely different way.
Only one clan permits itself to eat living, intelligent food. That's the practice of the Ghouls, and only one clan of Drow wants anything to do with the Ghouls.
If I were to synthesize some of these ideas, I'd have Drow "coming of age" ceremonies where newly-adult Drow sell their souls to one of 12 "established" demons.
This is kind of an intriguing idea. Maybe even have them born as elves but when they pledge themselves they physically change.
I think any given group of drow is going to be vastly influenced by the demonic patron. A society of Pazuzu worshipers is going to be very different to one which follows Demogorgon, for instance.
I seem to recall promising some thoughts on drow cities, so here we go. I think it's important that drow cities be as varied in their way as the human cities of the world above, and occur according to the same logic that governs the placement of cities anywhere. The occurrence of natural resources, location on a major junction of trading routes and so forth. Though the question of what constitute natural resources or trade routes in the Darklands is an interesting one.
In some ways, drow cities are a separate topic from the drow themselves, as they are shaped by terrain and purpose. I can see cities perched on the edges of vast chasms, guarding trading routes deeper into the Darklands, as well as others set across entrances to vaults, allowing access to preserved environments from bygone ages, and plants and animals otherwise not to be found in the Darklands (or possibly the world). Then there are those cities closer to the surface, ideally positioned for launching raids to procure new slaves from unsuspecting communities.
In terms of city politics, I suspect it all comes down to steady states and tipping points. Chaotic nature or not, certain political configurations are likely to persist, if only because of the tendency to slip into an enemy's established power base once you've deposed him. Certainly the existing powers are likely to violently oppose any change which threatens their position of authority. So you might see a monarchy persisting over several centuries, even if which family holds the crown changes, while any true anarchy will last only until various forceful individuals carve out their own chunks of territory.
Any given drow political system will have its tipping point though - that point at which changing circumstances make the system untenable, or enough pressure builds from those with the capacity to seize power if only the rules were to be changed.
First Edition Fiend Folio Drow turn me on.
I agree. I think any serious consideration of Drow should start there. The First Edition Fiend Folio really got my imagination fired up about Drow. (Although I don't have a problem with Drizzt either. I certainly enjoyed The Crystal Shard).
I liked how Drow had certain types of equipment associated with them. I did *not* care for the way it was ruined by sunlight. I'd like to see Golarion's Drow have certain iconic equipment...maybe black or bluish chainmail...really fine and lightweight chainmail. Or maybe lightweight lamellar armor with blue or black enamel. Maybe certain types of knives or swords. Magic rings or amulets. Not over-the-top powerful stuff, just...interesting stuff.
I have always liked the idea that Drow were once normal Elves who were corrupted by...something. Maybe a Demon Lord. *shrug* And they fled the surface world...to avoid the sun...or were they searching for something down below? Some lost, ancient source of power, perhaps?
I even liked the drawing of the Drow in the First Edition Fiend Folio. I like the idea that they almost look like a photographic negative. Very cool. And I do like my Drow to have some affinity for spiders.
And I think they should have some connection to Shadow Magic. I always liked the idea of a Drow Shadowcaster. I know that Shadowcasters as written in the Tome of Magic aren't OGL, but the general concept of "Shadow Magic" should be fair game. Seems like a perfect fit.
As for what do they eat, I'd say: fungi (including myconids?), rothe, cave fish, insects, roots and tubers, and the occasional Gnome...
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Okay all! Work starts on the drow articles today! So if there's anything else you want to throw your votes in for or against, let it be know!
* Don't make the drow too over-the-top. Villains are far scarier if they are believable, and a race entirely composed of cannibalistic, fiendish super-geniuses quickly becomes silly instead of scary. There just aren't enough drow to justify constant lethal interactions, just as there aren't enough slaves to sustain constant depravity. Save that for important occasions like initiation rites and festivals - think of them as magically inclined Aztecs.
* Thus, an everyday diet of baby hearts and distilled fear is out. Instead, drow eat a bland diet of cave fish, rothe meat and underground mushroom, and trade with unscrupulous surfacers for grain, vegetables and spices.
* There should be no stat differences between male and female drow. Ideally, they shouldn't have SR either (SR should be reserved for creatures with alien physiognomies or transcendent creatures like dragons) and no spell-like abilities. If the ultra-magical high elves have no spell-like abilities, neither should the drow.
* The drow need an interesting social structure. The matriachical theocracy of Menzoberranzan is one alternative. I have my noble drow houses set up like old Japanese zaibatsus, rather than based on blood relations, bolstered by independent fighting societies dedicated to different demon lords.
* The drow should be great at something that gives the surface races a need for occasionally seeking out the dark elves. Just like dwarves are great smiths, the drow could be peerless alchemists (and poisoners) or surgeons. Having the king's adviser say things like "Only a drow physician can save the queen" adds an interesting element to any game. Of course, the physician is unlikely to accept payment in coin...
* Finally, the drow need a creation myth that gives them an existential focus - specifically, it needs to be determined whether they want to conquer the surface world or not. If they do, they become behind-the-scenes movers and shakers (think Against The Giants). If they don't, they become slave-raiders and mischief-makers that occasionally show up in force to steal an important item or seize a person with special knowledge that will further some unknowable plot or avenge some long-forgotten slight.
One thing I would ask for the drow of Golarion is that they don't become so viciously and digustingly evil...that they become as predictable as many complain Drizzt becomes.
I understand how today's gamers can cringe from the fanboy obsession with the "bad-ass good-aligned dark elf ranger with double blades" stereotype. But I have enjoyed several drow characters in my campaigns, with much more complex personalities than a two-dimensional "CG" or "CE" describing everything they do.
Anytime you label a fantasy race, you limit them. If the rule becomes "All drow are scheming, treacherous villains," then the player will never even think of trusting a drow. How is a schemer supposed to scheme if none of his opponents ever trust a word he says?
I worry that saying "Always CE" about drow limits their potential creatively. You don't get out of the shadow of an icon like Salvatore's hero by going to the other extreme. Don't get me wrong, I love all the fiendish ideas that have been thrown about for the dark elves. I would simply prefer all the options open, however remote some of those options may be.
Creative Director
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Anytime you label a fantasy race, you limit them. If the rule becomes "All drow are scheming, treacherous villains," then the player will never even think of trusting a drow. How is a schemer supposed to scheme if none of his opponents ever trust a word he says?
I worry that saying "Always CE" about drow limits their potential creatively. You don't get out of the shadow of an icon like Salvatore's hero by going to the other extreme. Don't get me wrong, I love all the fiendish ideas that have been thrown about for the dark elves. I would simply prefer all the options open, however remote some of those options may be.
Never fear. By part two of Second Darkness we've already got a non-chaotic evil drow in the mix. I'm certain there will be more. I'm also certain none of them will be good in Second Darkness... but that after we've established the themes and presence of Golarion drow, we'll probably relax on that front. We CERTAINLY can't (and don't want to) forbid PCs from playing good aligned drow; I've done so several times myself, and it's FUN! Second Darkness, though, isn't a good campaign to do that... but others? Why not?
In any case, I'm not worried about our authors limiting the drow of Golarion, any more than our goblins, ogres, kobolds, gnolls, dragons, lamias, wendigos, or redcaps are limited...
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* Don't make the drow too over-the-top. Villains are far scarier if they are believable, and a race entirely composed of cannibalistic, fiendish super-geniuses quickly becomes silly instead of scary.
Yeah. I'm okay with Nick Logue's work, but I wouldn't want the Drow to degenerate too much into Saw/Hostel territory. Sometimes a suggestion is far more sinister than a bunch of gore. Drow may well torture and engage in all sorts of wrongness, but they wouldn't be *messy.*
There just aren't enough drow to justify constant lethal interactions, just as there aren't enough slaves to sustain constant depravity. Save that for important occasions like initiation rites and festivals - think of them as magically inclined Aztecs.
Agreed. The parties I mentioned above (distilled fear and all that) were meant to represent special occasions. Even the Rockefellers sometimes have a quiet meal at home...
* There should be no stat differences between male and female drow. Ideally, they shouldn't have SR either (SR should be reserved for creatures with alien physiognomies or transcendent creatures like dragons) and no spell-like abilities. If the ultra-magical high elves have no spell-like abilities, neither should the drow.
I'd prefer if they were an LA+0 race, perhaps with some minor spell-likes (like Gnomes) and a bonus to saves vs. spells (like old-school Dwarves) but in the interests of backwards compatibility, perhaps that's not an option.
* The drow need an interesting social structure. The matriachical theocracy of Menzoberranzan is one alternative. I have my noble drow houses set up like old Japanese zaibatsus, rather than based on blood relations, bolstered by independent fighting societies dedicated to different demon lords.
With a dozen different demon lords, it's possible that the Drow don't have any one standard social structure. In a community of Kotschie worshippers, the city is made of ice and they stalk around brutalizing each other in dominance displays. In one dedicated to a more subtle demon, a Golarion version of Grazzt, there could be more cutting politics and seduction-turned-assassination and less overt violence.
The larger communities, the Drow equivalent of cities, would likely have many rival followers of different demon lords forced to live together, and the politicking could be fierce. But since the life of *any* Drow is more valuable than that of 'lesser races,' they would be more likely to play out their intrigues by sabotaging each others interests, killing each others slaves, etc. rather than just murdering each other. They wouldn't have any ethical or moral stance against killing their own, it might just be seen as tacky.
Perhaps the Drow who resorts to killing a fellow Drow has proven that he's less of a Drow than the one he killed, since he couldn't win using his wits. As in feudal Japan, baiting a rival to lose his temper and draw steel could be consider a 'win.'
I like the look of the drow, and I enjoy the sinister spidery aspect... but cash me in as one of those people who has a certain amount of trouble believing a successful evil society so hell-bent on not working well with each other. Jockeying for position, betrayals, and the occasional (and expected) assassinations are all fine and good, but it everyone's so busy backstabbing and sabatoging each other that no-one gets anything done... the idea that they're a dominating, and successful villainous threat, is plot-hole fiat.
I think my favorite Drow is Downer. He's not a bad guy, per se, but he's not a goody two shoes walking stereotype engine, either. He's punky, disrespectful, skilled, and pretty much does his own thing.
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Actually, the biggest thing I'd like to see in the Second Darkness books is... how the Underdark... scuse me, the Darklands, works. One of the problems I've had with the Underdark for a long time is that I've never found a book that really explains the way that the underground ecosystem works. Earth needs a sun for light and heat, to fuel life and heat. What's the underground energy source to support so dang many life forms in the bowels of the world?
I know fungus likes dark, dank places, but what does the fungus feed on? Rocks?
It's one thing to say it's an alien environment that doesn't follow earthly surface rules, but it should have some way of working.
What's the underground energy source to support so dang many life forms in the bowels of the world?
The fungus derives energy from the psychic emo radiation of thousands of Drow PCs.
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Okay, time to chime in with my own 2 cents. :)
I've never had a problem with good drow. But here's the thing...I like good drow a) when they're done right, and b) when it's remembered that the vast majority of drow are EVIL, unapologetically so, and they don't desire to change. Drizzt clones get on my nerves, sure (though I have no problem with Drizzt himself. Hell, I've always enjoyed Salvatore's books, though I reached a point where it just felt like he was phoning things in. When you're reading a book by one of your favorite authors, and you start nitpicking certain lines because you feel you could have written it better, there's a problem), I understand that you can't completely rule out good-aligned drow as long as they're rare and done right. I played FR quite a bit, and my favorite character was a halfbreed drow/moon elf from an Eilistraeean community. He'd never even met an evil drow, and tended to act more akin to a surface elf than a drow. I made him partly drow because I liked the flavor the followers of Eilistraee added, and it gave a decent option for the occasional PC that did want to play a good-aligned drow. That being said...I'm not advocating enclaves of good-aligned drow in Golarion. I actually really like the idea of good drow becoming elves again, and I'm absolutely in love with the reimagining of drow in the Second Darkness AP. So...don't rule good drow out, and don't necessarily make it so that they turn back into surface elves automatically...keep things open, and interesting.
Note: As for that half-drow PC, I've actually imported him to Golarion, what with the destruction of the Realms and all. Of course, I made him a full elf now...I felt that it would be a better take on him, since I figured Golarion would be lacking the sort of society that made him viable in FR. :)
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I like the look of the drow, and I enjoy the sinister spidery aspect... but cash me in as one of those people who has a certain amount of trouble believing a successful evil society so hell-bent on not working well with each other. Jockeying for position, betrayals, and the occasional (and expected) assassinations are all fine and good, but it everyone's so busy backstabbing and sabatoging each other that no-one gets anything done... the idea that they're a dominating, and successful villainous threat, is plot-hole fiat.
I think my favorite Drow is Downer. He's not a bad guy, per se, but he's not a goody two shoes walking stereotype engine, either. He's punky, disrespectful, skilled, and pretty much does his own thing.
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Actually, the biggest thing I'd like to see in the Second Darkness books is... how the Underdark... scuse me, the Darklands, works. One of the problems I've had with the Underdark for a long time is that I've never found a book that really explains the way that the underground ecosystem works. Earth needs a sun for light and heat, to fuel life and heat. What's the underground energy source to support so dang many life forms in the bowels of the world?
I know fungus likes dark, dank places, but what does the fungus feed on? Rocks?
It's one thing to say it's an alien environment that doesn't follow earthly surface rules, but it should have some way of working.
1. Consider this: from reading some brittish fiction, one might have the impression that everyone in brittain has a nanny, a nursery, and doesnt have to work for a living. Or is a victimized orphan. One might come to think that, as a nation, brittish people dont raise their own kids, they pay people to do it for them.
or that the population of medival scotland consisted of nothing but various backstabbing lords and their loopy wives.
this isnt the case, obviously. it just that the fiction of a given society, particularly if they are extremely elitist or aristocratic, it's the upper crust that gets alot of the screentime. What, did pre-revolution france consist of nothing but big-wiged poofters and big-girl's blouses, mincing about eating garlich and going to galas?
All the backstabbing and politicing happens in drow noble houses. sure, alot of drow society's underclass consist of slaves from other races, but the greater portion of drow citizens must be artisans, shopkeepers, barbers, the better class of caterers, poets, arcanists, scholars, that sort of thing. not to mention theives, outlaws, and poor people living among the slaves and underclass. Take Downer, as an example.
sure, these "average" drow are backstabbing bastards, but they backstab on behaf of their families and buisnessess, and only occasionaly literaly. the insane killing, culling, cruelty, and scheming is a 'nob thing. Normal drow just slip poison into their aunt murial's mushroom wine so they can snag the inheritance, or go on slavetaking raids because the cash feeds their cute little backstabbing kids.
As for ecology; the same thing that keeps the Deep-sea ecology running; detritus from above and geothermal energy.
...it just that the fiction of a given society, particularly if they are extremely elitist or aristocratic, it's the...
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Actually, I like this. I like this a lot. It's a good perspective to take. I suppose part of my issue is that my last real thorough read on Drow-ish society was in a Dragon Magazine that... if I remember correctly, really went all out on the Drow as ravening psychopaths who're constantly unfurling moustache-twirling Snidely Whiplash (but PG-13+) villainry on their next door neighbors. But then, one could call that the fiction of the society.
Heh, cool.
As for ecology; the same thing that keeps the Deep-sea ecology running; detritus from above and geothermal energy.
This, though... still doesn't work for me. The sea is basically an enormous pit. Detrius falls straight down. Detrius doesn't fall through solid rock. In real life, detrius does get underground, but it's in far smaller supply and usually clusters close to the surface (where there are creatures like bats, who live double lives,) so underground life is sparser, the deeper one gets.
The geothermal energy bit might work with some work... but it strikes me as harder to move the energy around in still caves than in open water.
I'm not saying 'No, Underdark bad.' Comceptually, I love it. Just that I want a good reason for how it's such a rich and peopled ecosystem.
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Well, yes, the energy transfer is less efficient. But here's what I mean by detritus:
1. a giant cave spider jumps out on a deer that came too close to a cavern entrance
2. the spider's crap feeds a mushroom colony. the mushroom mycellium reaches down to a lower cave
3. the mushrooms in the lower cave are eaten by cave crickets, who's lives also form enough crap for the shrooms. the crickets feed other things, which feed other things, which feed the horrible tentacled monster that pops up occasionaly to eat things. its crap...
and so on
But I agree that geothermals wouldnt be nearly as vibrant or efficient as black smokers. but, in the campaign setting, it it said that Orv (the deepest layer) is composed of large magical vaults, many with self-contained ecosystems. the answer boils down to "a wizard did it" but in this case the wizards are impossibly ancient beings that may predate even the aboleths, and, I'm going to take a wild guess here, probably had star-shaped footprints...
so, these hollow-world ecosystems might solve the logistical problems.
Well, yes, the energy transfer is less efficient. But here's what I mean by detritus:
-snip-
and so on
There's no denying energy (and matter) transfer can and does happen. I just have doubt it's enough to account for vast mushroom forests so in subterranean vogue, or multiple warring, swarming civilizations, like the Drow.
but, in the campaign setting, it it said that Orv (the deepest layer) is composed of large magical vaults, many with self-contained ecosystems. the answer boils down to "a wizard did it" but in this case the wizards are impossibly ancient beings that may predate even the aboleths, and, I'm going to take a wild guess here, probably had star-shaped footprints...
so, these hollow-world ecosystems might solve the logistical problems.
Ah, see, that's where my weakness steps in. I don't have the Campaign Setting Book, so I didn't realize they might have given an answer to the question already. "A wizard did it" or "an ancient antideluvian civilization did it," is usually better for me than the "just don't worry about it." that I usually get from D&D. Though it depends on how much of a hand wave the wizard is or isn't.
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Also... um... sorry, I think we might have strayed a bit away from the Drow here, but I still think it's relevant, since it's their environment and all.