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There are already spells to do what you propose. Scrying and Teleportation can both be stopped cold. Alarm should sound the alarm as soon as the teleporter appears. If you have access to the Spell Compendium there is Anticipate Teleport (3rd) which gives you warning and delay their arrival for 1 round or 3 rounds if they have the greater version(6th). Zone of Respite (4th) blocks teleportation but has shorter duration than Dimensional Lock. I am sure there are others I have missed.
Mage’s Private Sanctum
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 30-ft. cube/level (S) Duration: 24 hours (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No
This spell ensures privacy. Anyone looking into the area from outside sees only a dark, foggy mass. Darkvision cannot penetrate it. No sounds, no matter how loud, can escape the area, so nobody can eavesdrop from outside. Those inside can see out normally.
Divination (scrying) spells cannot perceive anything within the area, and those within are immune to detect thoughts. The ward prevents speech between those inside and those outside (because it blocks sound), but it does not prevent other communication, such as a sending or message spell, or telepathic communication, such as that between a wizard and her familiar.
The spell does not prevent creatures or objects from moving into and out of the area.
Mage’s private sanctum can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Material Component: A thin sheet of lead, a piece of opaque glass, a wad of cotton or cloth, and powdered chrysolite.Dimensional Lock
Abjuration
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space Duration: One day/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like or psionic abilities. Once dimensional lock is in place, extradimensional travel into or out of the area is not possible.
A dimensional lock does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, the spell does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
Also there was a wonderful dragon article a while back that talked about using mundane materials to shield against teleportation and scrying. Lead morter, lead lined shutters etc.
WotC put out a short adventure based on a redirected teleport going wrong that was interesting. It is among the D&DI stuff released for 3e. Here. No spells or anything but an interesting way to make PCs cautious of teleportation.
I have had to get pretty creative lately in limiting the power of teleport like powers since 4 of my PCs are marked members of House Orien in Eberron and they can all teleport to some degree or another.
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You're certainly right about alarm, but I'm not happy with the
fix for SBT being in a non OGL book, so I'd like to come up with
my own, that could be OGL.I also don't find the SRD spells quite do it either; I'd like
the ability to defend against Scrying to become available when
Scrying does, and neither of the two SRD spells do that.Any comments on the spell I posted?
Well you Scry Ward duplicates 3 spells.
- For objects, Obscure Object (SRD, lvl Clr3 W/S2) no opposed checks the attempt simply fails. Only works on 1 object per casting. 8hr duration.
- For person. Nondetection (SRD, lvl W/S3) has opposed check longer duration and 50gp component. Though not in Cleric list except trickery domain.
- For buildings see Private Sanctum above which is a better deal.
It just seems that your spells don't really step far enough outside the SRD spells to warrant new spells. Now some of these will be needed for divine casters to have similar powers.
But Scry Ward looses all its appeal to a caster when he can get private sanctum and the longer duration w/o opposed checks one spell level later. And Greater Scry Ward? In balance is the longer duration worth the trade of an opposed check to see if they get through it anyway?
Any comments on the spell I posted?
Bards can't do a thing about scrying with it, because it's a 3rd level spell for bards and scrying is 4th level.
I also don't find the SRD spells quite do it either; I'd like the ability to defend against Scrying to become available when Scrying does, and neither of the two SRD spells do that.
But there is a defense from scrying at the same level; detect scrying. While it doesn't actually stop scryers, it lets you know immediately when someone is watching you. At that point, you make some prearranged hand gesture to your fellow party members and they all start talking about the weather.
Or, you could just yell, "Hey! Are you scrying on me, jerkwad? Well, since I beat your caster level check, I know where you are and what you look like. And, since I know what you look like, that counts as secondhand familiarity for me to scry you back! And, since I'm a Pathfinder diviner, that actually counts as firsthand familiarity! So you'd better just give up now, dirtbag, unless you want a permanent image of your naked butt displayed throughout the Nine Kingdoms!"
I love this game. :)
But seriously, you're worried about the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, not just scrying by itself. Mordenkainen's private sanctum is the same level as teleport, so it can still effectively stop this combo. Plus, teleporting to a location you've only viewed once has only a 75% chance of working properly. Good odds — but would you bet your life?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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There's also some non-magical ways to get around SBT. First of which is to use an alias. If the PCs only know the villain is named The Deathlord, that won't really help them scry Vort Mitigard. They'd first have to find out enough about The Deathlord. If it's a villain that the PCs get to see earlier in the campaign, then you can have them do their evil deeds in a disguise (either magical or using the skill) and they won't have the correct visual to scry on that villain.
Also, a mastermind type villian could easily use duplicates, whether they be simulacra, polymorphed henchmen, or simple look a likes. While the PCs SBT in, get the easy kill on the duplicate, the real villian can come in and mop the floor with them once their short term buffs have expired and they think all is safe. Meanwhile, he'll have all of his short term buffs up, and can bring all of his henchmen, monstrous pets, etc.
Finally, there are lots of villians that the PCs simply don't know anything about. If they're exploring a lost dungeon looking for an artifact, they don't know who/what the bad guy guarding that is, and thus can't scry on it.
Other ways to thwart this tactic is the contingency spell set to teleport the villian away if anyone teleports/appears within his sight that's not a known ally. He can then use the SBT tactic back at the PCs since he now knows what THEY look like.
I see the problem lying with the teleport and greater teleport spell. With a 3 second casting, you can be at any place you like, if you know it. Seaking into a base might be a problem, but geting out again, surviving the home trip and evading or overwhelming any pursuers all becomes nonexistant problems.
And that's not just for high level games, but starts at Level 9. Maybe it's okay for some campaigns, but for sword and sorcery frontier campaigns, it outrightly kills half of the game. And I don't really see a way to fix it.
Scry is indeed a 3rd level bard spell; unless of course this particular SRD is wrong in this case.
So a bard can stop other bards from scrying on him, but he still can't stop clerics, druids, sorcerors, or wizards.
Detect Scrying is fine and all, but doesn't help much when you're asleep.
But what are they going to do, admire your pajamas? If they teleported in after scrying while you were asleep, that would be dangerous indeed. But if your enemies can cast 5th-level spells, then so should you (or at least someone in your party), which means you should be sleeping in a private sanctum.
So, is it scrying alone that you're concerned about, or Scry-Buff-Teleport? Why is it so essential for a 7th-level wizard to block scrying from a 7th-level wizard who can't follow up with a teleport? Why would anyone want to play a less-than-20th level diviner?
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I see the problem lying with the teleport and greater teleport spell. With a 3 second casting, you can be at any place you like, if you know it. Seaking into a base might be a problem, but geting out again, surviving the home trip and evading or overwhelming any pursuers all becomes nonexistant problems.
And that's not just for high level games, but starts at Level 9. Maybe it's okay for some campaigns, but for sword and sorcery frontier campaigns, it outrightly kills half of the game. And I don't really see a way to fix it.
The "bampf" home effect is maddening. We have over several games house ruled teleport down do be less derailing to the game but this effect remains and is now assumed in adventure design.
scry and all such divinatiosn could have their effects mitigated but not rendered useless by allowing a saving throw. In the area of effect of a divination spell, make a will save and go unnoticed or even worse (for the caster) notice the spell.
The save for scrying is actually quite reasonable. Second hand knowledge of the person gives a +5 to the save. Further if the casting fails they can't scry again for 24 hours. It seems to me that high level critters and NPCs will be perfectly aware of the dangers of scry-teleport and take precautions... or even set traps. Non-detection is only 3rd level... Maybe part of the problem is in high level adventure and NPC design rather than inherent in the system?
As for escaping via teleport dimensional anchor is only 4th level and can be made into a wand. Dimensional Lock blocks a room from teleport in or out.
I understand your frustration and I would offer the following as a counter(s):
This strategy is a good one, if used sparingly and only on very very important missions. An old group of mine used it one time despite the campaign going into the mid 20's, with both a full-caster Sorc and Wizard and Cleric on the team. Used sparingly it can be very dramatic and very effective.
The problem comes when the players use it repeatedly to thwart every encounter. The solution to this can take a few forms. For one, you can tell them to stop. You can instruct them OOC not to do it anymore. While effective, I think you will agree that this method is really rather lack-luster. Arbitrarily instructing players that they can't use their abilities anymore really tends to take the oomph out of a campaign.
You can however tell them to stop it without telling them to stop it.
The primary method of doing this is the intelligent foe.
Ingredients required:
One foe who escaped. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. One intelligent foe is all you need. So long as he's still alive. (or undead).
The vast majority of PC's, for some reason, run around without any protection against scrying and teleport. Even those very groups who use it to such devastating effectiveness are usually very very succeptible to having it done to them.
Escaped BBEG either becomes a wizard, was a wizard already, or hires (or bribes, or extorts) one to assist him. He then gatheres an ECL+1 (or +2) group of suitable brutes to accompany him.
Suitable in this instance means that the brings with him a relatively good-to-moderate counter to each of the PC's. Remember- this is an old foe. He has done his research. He knows the PC's and he hates them. He brings with himself people who are equipped and capable of bringing the PC's down.
Then he waits and watches while the PC's fight and plunder their way through their latest adventure. Eventually they make it back to an inn, safe and secure because their latest cause is over. About 2 hours into the sleep cycle, Retribution Begins.
Scry, Buff, Teleport. Mass combat begins.
By the time combat is over, the PC's (assuming they survived- and they probably will) will have to sit and re-evaluate their battle plans for the future. They will, if they are smart, do two things.
1) They will find ways to protect against scrying in the future. (Veil is great for that).
2) They will probably tone down their use of scry/buff/teleport.
If the PC's are not bright enough to tone it down, you may have to wait awhile and repeat the process again. With the same BBEG perhaps.
The primary thing that keeps PC's using scry/buff/teleport is that the DM is seldom willing to use it against them. Once it becomes the tactical nuke for both sides, intelligent PC's will quickly realize that it's a weapon best saved for emergencies and serious problems.
If you come up with a multitude of spells that contiually and permanently make it such that the PC's can never scry anyone or teleport anywhere then instead I would suggest you simply tell the PC's that those spells no longer exist, and that they can swap the spells out for another of the appropriate level. It works better, creates less anger among the party, and still promotes game-world cohesion.
</wall of text>
-S
It stands to reason that if your PCs have thought of or discovered this combo of spells, so have others in the past. In the real world it would have been used for everything from robberies to assassinations and thus the combo would become well known amoung all powerful circles. True, a commoner might not know about "wizardly workings" but it makes sense that any government official, BBEG (is there a difference really?), or other high-powered or wealthy individual would know to anticipate such tactics. As such, any fortress built should already have private sanctums literally woven into the stonework. This means that almost any and all attempts to use this combo will already have been prempted when the villain buitl his secret, or not so secret, lair.
In other words, given these factors, why is there a need for new spells?
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Scry is indeed a 3rd level bard spell; unless of course this particular SRD is wrong in this case.
So a bard can stop other bards from scrying on him, but he still can't stop clerics, druids, sorcerors, or wizards.
Unless he Heightens the spell to 4th level, to match.
OK not a perfect solution, but it's one possible way.
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So, is it scrying alone that you're concerned about, or Scry-Buff-Teleport? Why is it so essential for a 7th-level wizard to block scrying from a 7th-level wizard who can't follow up with a teleport? Why would anyone want to play a less-than-20th level diviner?
The trouble is, the attacker doesn't need to be 9th level to follow up his divinations with an attack, since he only needs one teleport, which can be from a scroll, and cast it when Scying tells him the conditions are right.
The defender needs to be able to reliably cast Mage Sanctum every day to get the benefit.
You can however tell them to stop it without telling them to stop it.
The primary method of doing this is the intelligent foe.
Well I was thinking of having contingent dimension door on the primary bad guy. DDooring him into a safe location then triggering a massive trap in the room he was in.
Once the characters wade their way out of the huge pile of rubble that was the BBEG's throne room then he can attack them. Probably starting with using dimensional anchor in the first round if his trap didn't already hit them with that.
In other words, given these factors, why is there a need for new spells?Why not? It actually gives a way for BBEG to have built his secret lair to be proof against this tactic.
Well actually there are already ways the BBEG can have proof against this tactic with the core spells. If the existing defenses aren't being used then why would new spells be used?
Detect scrying has a 24 hour duration. While the characters have a few minutes/ rounds to prepare themselves the BBEG has had years to create traps and defenses in his lair. As soon as he detects scrying he can prepare to trigger his traps in a subtle way that the PCs won't notice so when they teleport in he gets the drop on them.
Good idea Dennis :)
Intelligent foes > Nerfing over-used spell combo's.
Good idea Dennis :)
Intelligent foes > Nerfing over-used spell combo's.
I was just picturing what I would do. Characters teleport in all ready to go. BBEG presses a button on his throne and the roof literally crashes down on the party. BBEG casts dimension lock on the room, pulls another lever as the party tries to extract themselves from the room then walks out as the room starts to fill with water.
Only when the party finally stumbles out of that mess does he greet them at the door with his fully buffed henchmen.
And that's the ingame, rational solution to the problem.
It's only a problem inso far as the DM refuses to have intelligent foes 1) counter it and 2) use it themselves.
-S
And that's the ingame, rational solution to the problem.
It's only a problem inso far as the DM refuses to have intelligent foes 1) counter it and 2) use it themselves.
Well in fairness I don't think the problem is limited to those on this thread. There are a considerable number of high level adventures that don't take this tactic into account either. Many DMs are just following the adventure as written.
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Well in fairness I don't think the problem is limited to those on this thread. There are a considerable number of high level adventures that don't take this tactic into account either. Many DMs are just following the adventure as written.
I agree; so many times I and my fellow players have spent a session debating how best to enter a powerful enemy's lair, and the DM has asked "What are you ****ing about for?".
My reply is that I know what I would do to protect my home, but I am often slightly disappointed to find this doesn't happen in the adventure, making my preparations completely unnecessary.
Of course, the one time the place is trapped is the time the players say "What the hell; these places are never trapped. Let's just run in..."
This discussion has cropped up before; the threads on it are interesting reading. The problem with making it a spell is that it doesn't help your non-spellcasting creatures.
I think my favorite suggestion was to make 10 feet of dirt or rock a natural teleport barrier, so if your big bad monster or evil guy wants to have a teleport-proof lair, they have to build a dungeon...
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We had a fairly epic GURPS fantasy game where my mage character had Teleport and was ordered to go warn the local lord that the kingdom was under assault (from one of the beseiged border keeps). The character had been to the lord's throne room and just rolled. The GM was in the middle of pointing out that the lord's throne room was magically protected by a ward that gave a -10 to attempts to teleport into (or out of) it, but I rolled a critical success and appeared in front of the lord, who turned to his court wizard and said, "I thought people weren't supposed to do that?" The wizard rebutted, "Sire, I cast those wards myself!" My smartass character retorted, "Oh? There were wards? Sorry, I didn't notice." He made no friends that day...
A straight penalty to teleportation is far more funthan just barring it outright, particularly if the teleport-foiling spell sends each affected person to a different place, scattering any groups that attempt to teleport in at the same time.
A fun option, borrowed from Ocean's Eleven, would be for the king / evil wizard / whatever to make a perfect copy of his throne room, deep underground, and fill it with Programmed permanant illusions of himself and his court doing stuff. Scrying and teleport spells could be redirected to this fake arrival point, which, naturally, would be trapped, and perhaps even Dimensionally Anchored, so that it becomes a teleporter roach motel...