Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I sat down last night to build an adventure for my upcoming 4e campaign and found that the tools in the DMG for adventure building are very good and that they are applicable to 3.5/PFRPG. The interesting thing that 4e does is to suggest that you start by calculating the xp you want to award and use that to purchase the monsters that will fill out the encounter/adventure/etc. For those that want to use such a tool, it's fairly easy to do so in 3e as well, and provides a lot of guidance for encounter building.
Let me provide the example I was working on last night (hidden by spoiler tags to conserve some space).
I wanted to build a short wererat adventure for my campaign. Flipping through the 4e MM, I see that the wererats are Level 3 monsters. I want about 4-5 encounters for this adventure and I really want to run it when the PCs are about 4th or 5th level. I figure the adventure should be roughly a third of the total xp for those levels, and calculate a third of the xp required to reach 5th and 6th level. I ultimately decide that I want to have the adventure be a 5th level adventure, so I set my xp budget at 1/3 the amount the PCs need to reach 6th level.
Once I have that number, I start figuring out which individual encounters I will use to build it. I want the adventure to be fast and furious lair invasion. The PCs will not be given the opportunity to take an extended rest, and if they do, the wererats will relocate and their mission to root them out from the city will be a failure. I run some of the numbers, and ultimately determine that 2 Level 4 encounters, 2 Level 3 encounters, and 1 Level 2 encounter will meet my budget. Here's what I come up with:
Level 4 encounter: I want to use one of the Level 4 encounter to build my climax encounter. I don't want to have a single BBEG because, well, I'm a bit tired of that encounter type. Instead, I want to do three moderately tough opponents. I decide to go with three elite wererat skirmishers. The 5th level PCs may well make mince meat out of them, so I consider sacrificing one of my other encounters to goose this one up to level 5 or 6.
Level 2 encounter: I think 5th level PCs will just rip through this like a hot knife through butter, so it seems like the best one to cut in order to increase my budget for the Level 4 encounter. I like that idea, and decide to build the Level 2 encounter into the climax. The total xp shows that I am effectively building a Level 7 encounter, which is within the range of 5th level PCs (or 4th level PCs if my players get to this encounter early). I want this encounter to be a large number of creatures to give the trio above flankers and provide some meat shields, so I ultimately go with a group of humman rabble (Level 2 minions) and dire rats (Level 1 brutes). The last encounter will begin with these guys showing up, and then the trio arriving while the PCs are fighting them.
Level 3 encounter: I want a plain vanilly wererat encounter, so this one is going to be five wererats. It will probably be the second encounter. What will make this encounter interesting is the terrain. The fight will be in some sewer tunnels (classic), and I'd like the wererats to be able to use the tunnels to employ hit and run tactics. I decide to steal a page from the maze in Three Faces of Evil: the tunnels are littered with doors that have a tricky opening mechanism. The wererats are familiar with it, so they can open and close doors as a minor action. For the PCs, they need to use a move action to open and close the doors. However, they can use a thievery check to determine how the doors work. If they succeed, they only need to use a minor action to open that door and any doors afterwards. If they fail, they use a standard action to open the door and must continue using move actions to open subsequent doors until they succeed at such a thievery check.
Level 4 encounter: I like to start things off with a bang, so this will probably be the first encounter. My thought here is to mix a Level 3 or 4 trap with a group of wererats and dire rats who are able to operate without getting affected by the trap. I haven't worked out the full details of this encounter yet, but am happy with the idea. The main thing I want is for the trap to be a nuisance and not the centerpiece of the encounter. I haven't worked out how exactly I will spend my xp budget here.
Level 3 encounter: This is another trap encounter, but unlike the Level 4 encounter, the trap is going to be the main event. Given that the party will be operating in the sewer, I think I will go with the classic water filled chamber of doom trap. The trap should account for 50-75% of the xp for the encounter, and the rest I will fill out with either some aquatic monsters to keep the PCs busy and/or some wererat archers harrassing them from above.
My adventure is about 1/3 of the xp for 5th level, so I'll probably go back and drop in 2-3 easy to find treasure parcels and 1-2 hidden parcels that will require some snooping to find.
That's my rough outline, some parts more fleshed out than others. Mostly I wanted to show how helpful I found it to be to conceptualize building encounters using an xp budget. I realize that if you're a more story oriented DM who likes to adjust your encounters dynamically to challenge the PCs, this method is probably not going to work for you. However, if you're looking for a mechanical framework, this is a pretty nice set of tools for designing encounters. In 3e, you could do the same thing and, to a certain extent, it is easier to do so given that an EL 3 encounter consists of a single CR3 monster, whereas in 4e, it's five Level 3 monsters (or whatever mix you decide to go with).
One thing I noted as I built this is that the way 4e uses "level" as a universal metric is somewhat confusing. A Level 4 encounter does not necessarily have only Level 4 creatures and it doesn't have to be in a Level 4 adventure. I find myself using 3e terms in my notes in order to keep straight what exactly monster level is doing vs. encounter level.
Anyway, not sure anyone will read this long ass post or find it interesting, but I must say that I do enjoy using it to build adventures, and would probably use this style if I were to go back to building 3e/PFRGP adventures again.
Heck, I plan on plundering the treasure allotment system for 3.5 design too. Skill challenges too... though I'm not going to go with having to achieve 2x successes before x failures though. That math is (unintentionally) designed to stymie rather than direct toward success.
I never really built adventures in 3.5 so the CR/EL thing never made a lot of sense to me. If you went just by xp value would you be able to make a 'balanced' encounter most of the time?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I never really built adventures in 3.5 so the CR/EL thing never made a lot of sense to me. If you went just by xp value would you be able to make a 'balanced' encounter most of the time?
If you followed the guidance that 4E gives, the answer is fairly often - yes. 2 CR 10 critters give the same xp as one CR 12 critter, and provide the same EL. You can't just plop in a creature way off the party's level in either system, though. The flat xp awards in PF RPG will make this a lot easier to pull off, assuming this math holds true in PF as well. It's hard to spend an xp budget when the reward for the critter depends on the level of the party :)
One of the areas where 4E shines is that combats with lots of foes are easier to balance. Of course, the trade for that was solo monsters that are unbelievable slogs...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I never really built adventures in 3.5 so the CR/EL thing never made a lot of sense to me. If you went just by xp value would you be able to make a 'balanced' encounter most of the time?
Generally, yes, though as Russ points out, you want to avoid creatures significantly above (or below) the PCs level. This is a bigger concern in 3e because the power differential between, say, a CR 3 monster and a CR 4 monster, is greater than the power differential between a 4e Level 3 monster and Level 4 monster. Similarly, lower CR monsters drop off in effectiveness quicker in 3e than in 4e because of the steeper power curve.
Sebastian,
I haven't had a chance to go through your post (I’m at work), but one thought stuck me...
Have you ever considered joining Wolfgang Baur's Open Design Project for 4th Edition?
He is moving forward with it, though taking the GSL into careful account. It does constitute 3rd party support however.
It strikes me you might enjoy it, and the group could use your level of insight.
I confessing, I am doing a bit of shilling here, but the process is pretty fun, and the more you put into it (as represented by this post of yours), the more you get out of it.
I had a post with some information about the program, if you’d like to know more.
We’re close to being fully commissioned (deadline is the end of the month), but we could use a few more folks, and basic patronage is no more than the cost of Keep on the Shadowfell.
In 3e, you could do the same thing and, to a certain extent, it is easier to do so given that an EL 3 encounter consists of a single CR3 monster, whereas in 4e, it's five Level 3 monsters (or whatever mix you decide to go with).
What Sebastian touches on here is actually one of the more promising aspects of 4e--to me anyway: the flexibility to customize encounters, and though his post was long--he would probably agree, to do so quickly.
There's definitely a learning curve to be climbed while transitioning from the EL and CR way of thinking, but the 4e encounter tool set is much more suited to diverse and interesting encounters.
<pause>
Or, at least allows them to be created with more ease...
But this has all been said before.
Very interesting read Sebastian. One of the first narrative walkthroughs of the encounter creation system... at least that I was willing to read.
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Brandon
Wulf Ratbane over at ENWorld has a really interesting post discussing the very same thing. The system he proposed pretty much mirrors the 4E encounter generation system. Let me see if I can find a link....
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226187
Edit: I have no idea how to turn that into an actual link, so you'll have to cut and paste it.
(url=www.something.com)name of link.(/url) Use ] in place of ).
Like so: with the first square bracket removed.
url=http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226187] Enworld article. [/url]
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks for the info Watcher, I'll have to take a look.
Mallias - I'm inclined to agree regarding the variety of configurations of an encounter in 4e. It does add complexity, but you can also do some interesting thing. I love how you can make a Level 4 encounter with a mob of minions, a single powerful opponent, or a mix. The shallow power curve opens up a lot of options that are tougher to pull of in 3e. An EL 4 encounter consisting of low powered minions is a bit harder to pull off in 3e because the effectiveness of low CR creatures drops off more dramatically than in 4e.
I like that your example design was not just XP and monsters. You also looked at terrain, movement, traps, encounter tempo, etc.
Once I have that number, I start figuring out which individual encounters I will use to build it. I want the adventure to be fast and furious lair invasion. The PCs will not be given the opportunity to take an extended rest, and if they do, the wererats will relocate and their mission to root them out from the city will be a failure. I run some of the numbers, and ultimately determine that 2 Level 4 encounters, 2 Level 3 encounters, and 1 Level 2 encounter will meet my budget. Here's what I come up with:
I have to say that I also really enjoy adventure building using a XP budget. It makes it much, MUCH easier to build a thematic encounter and place stuff to ensure that the players get what you wanted them to get.
The only thing that was a...concern, I suppose, is this part. I'm not sure how dead-set you are on the mission failing if the characters rest, but I would set it up so if the players do head out and take an extended rest, that instead of having it be a total loss to instead just make it a bit harder when they go back.
Perhaps the wererats rig their lair with traps and book it. They might leave the hidden parcels behind, so if the party is insistent on exploring the vacated lair that they might find something there.
Maybe the wererats gain allies somehow (a guild or gang or somesuch), so there is heavier opposition if they go back. They could just try to assassinate the characters while they sleep (possibly preventing an extended rest).
They could also do all of the above.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The only thing that was a...concern, I suppose, is this part. I'm not sure how dead-set you are on the mission failing if the characters rest, but I would set it up so if the players do head out and take an extended rest, that instead of having it be a total loss to instead just make it a bit harder when they go back.
Perhaps the wererats rig their lair with traps and book it. They might leave the hidden parcels behind, so if the party is insistent on exploring the vacated lair that they might find something there.
Maybe the wererats gain allies somehow (a guild or gang or somesuch), so there is heavier opposition if they go back. They could just try to assassinate the characters while they sleep (possibly preventing an extended rest).
They could also do all of the above.
The only thing is that I want this adventure to be fairly fast and furious, like a SWAT team raid. I pitched the encounters on the low end of their capabilities for that reason. The Level 7 encounter at the end will be mostly fodder and a few elite Level 3's, so it shouldn't tax them. The rest of the encounters are below their character level. Part of my goal with this adventure is to test out how well the characters can tackle a series of encounters without using an extended rest to force them to budget their per day powers appropriately and be very aware of their healing surges. If they fail, they'll probably run into the remaining wererats as part of a subsequent adventure.
The only thing is that I want this adventure to be fairly fast and furious, like a SWAT team raid. I pitched the encounters on the low end of their capabilities for that reason. The Level 7 encounter at the end will be mostly fodder and a few elite Level 3's, so it shouldn't tax them. The rest of the encounters are below their character level. Part of my goal with this adventure is to test out how well the characters can tackle a series of encounters without using an extended rest to force them to budget their per day powers appropriately and be very aware of their healing surges. If they fail, they'll probably run into the remaining wererats as part of a subsequent adventure.
Yeah, you know your group better than I, and I dont suspect it will be a problem: it seems much harder to accidentally wipe out your party in a 4E game, whether or not you are an experienced DM. Mainly, it was a suggestion if for some reason you hadnt thought of that, and wasnt aware of the pacing you were aiming for.
It certainly sounds like it'll be fun times for all. Are you going to post the encounter blocks when you finish them?
Who's to say someone else couldn't formalize your notes... Just a thought.
That said, if you continue to flesh out this adventure, I'd love to see more details on the trap designs.
Also, and probably not suitable to this particular adventure's theme (i.e. SWAT), I'd interested to see examples of skill-based encounters.
Perhaps there's a chance of "negotiating" with a defeated wererat, the successful result being some bonus to the final fight... say, some insight into using the terrain to the groups advantage... or, if not limited to benefiting the final fight, a bonus to actually operating those pesky doors...
This is teh awesome. You did a man's work today.
Good stuff. This might help me think better when I begin my own campaign building. Brava!
Aside: Glad to see some real in-depth 4e gameplay discussion finally taking place, too.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks everyone for the kind words, it is much appreciated.
Who's to say someone else couldn't formalize your notes... Just a thought.
Hey, if you want to formalize it and risk the wrath of the GSL, be my guest. ;-) Seriously, I don't mind if anyone wants to take this ball and run it further down the field, I just reserve the right to steal all the cool stuff you come up with.
Also, and probably not suitable to this particular adventure's theme (i.e. SWAT), I'd interested to see examples of skill-based encounters.
Perhaps there's a chance of "negotiating" with a defeated wererat, the successful result being some bonus to the final fight... say, some insight into using the terrain to the groups advantage... or, if not limited to benefiting the final fight, a bonus to actually operating those pesky doors...
The campaign is going to have about 1-2 skill challenges per level, and I specifically designed this to not have any in order to be a more pure combat experience. The conceit of the campaign is that the PCs are all working for the city guard. As such, I've got a rough outline of a skill challenge based around going to court to prosecute criminals. I may yet get around to posting it if anyone is interested.
Oh god, a lawyer DM running prosecutions against the criminals that the players bring in?
My hopes go out to your players, Sebastian. :)
Yeah. Thats pretty brutal.
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The only complaint I really have about the system is that the tables are labeled very poorly.. the "Awards" table should be called something else, like "Monster Purchasing Table" and the Target table should have been called "Encounter Experience Table."
This change would have made things much clearer since the method of calculating XP is pretty backwards to begin with and uses the "Rewards" table again in the reward part of the book.
BTW.. you should away XP... Encounter XP Total - Value of "Encounters" Not Defeated... not the jackass method of adding every encounter that was defeated. If they "defeated" everything, you already should know how much XP was earned.. you designed the damn thing.. if they missed one or two things... adding up 5-8 values is more work then subtracting the value one or two things from the total you already should know from designing the encounter.