| Shadowdweller |
Combat Tricks
I’ve been reading through the latest Pathfinder RPG alpha ruleset. While I am for the most part impressed, I cannot help but feel that your changes do not sufficiently address, and perhaps even exacerbate, the power imbalances that I and many others feel exist between the martial classes (such as the Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, etc) and casters. In particular, I wish to offer up the following ideas for the Fighter class, in hopes of possibly inspiring others:
Design Theories: One of the latest ideas for rebalancing the classes in 3.5 (with the Tome of Battle and Complete Scoundrel) and 4e for rebalancing martial classes has been the inclusion of “Maneuvers”, or sets of powerful, interchangeable, limited-use abilities that are similar to spells but…well…non-magical in nature. Aside from the increased tactical variety the mechanics add, they may also be conveniently contrasted with spells for the purpose of ensuring that everyone has something to contribute. I think it would quite easily possible to add a sort of limited version of these to 3.5-style classes without 1) seriously compromising the flavor or compatibility of the original versions, 2) stretching physics or game play to the point where it becomes excessively unbelievable, anime-like, or MMORPG-like. I submit the following example:
Fighter (my version):
The fighter is granted BAB, feats, skill points, and hit points as normal for the class in the PathfinderRPG alpha release. However, instead of or perhaps in addition to (a limited version of ?) the Armour/Weapon training they learn to use a number of special, limited-use Combat Tricks.
Fatigue Points: The rationale, in my mind, is that some actions are so taxing or take so much care and concentration that they can only be conducted intermittently. A fighter (or possibly other martial class) gains access to Combat Tricks much as a sorcerer learns spells; that is, they gain a limited number of tricks known based on fighter level and may choose to use any one of them spontaneously. I never DID come up with a suggested tricks-known table. *shrug* To power these abilities, the Fighter gains a pool of “fatigue points” at about 4th level or so equal to something like 2/3 the Fighter level, rounded down. After these are exhausted the fighter simply cannot concentrate clearly enough to conduct any more…until he or she has rested. There are three levels of combat tricks, which each cost a number of fatigue points equal to their level. A first-level trick requires the expenditure of one point, a second-level trick costs two points, etc. Combat Tricks are all immediate actions unless otherwise stated, do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and cannot be disrupted like spells or spell-like abilities. Most are used as part of attack actions. Saving throws, where appropriate, are equal to the 10 + one-half the trick-user’s fighter level + the user’s DEX modifier.
Sample Level 1 Tricks:
1) Energy-Assault: With proper training and care, a warrior can learn to make better use of weapons enchanted to inflict energy damage (such as flaming burst, frost, or shocking weapons). This trick causes an additional status effect if the next attack hits. The exact effect is dependent upon which energy type is used.
Fire: If the attack hits, the Victim must make a reflex save or catch fire. (1d6 fire damage per round; victim may make a reflex save each round to end the effect, or end it automatically by using an action to smother it)
Cold: A living victim takes 2 points of strength damage (no save)
Lightning: A living victim must make a fortitude save or be dazed for one round.
Unholy: A good-aligned victim must make a fortitude save or be sickened for 3 rounds.
Holy: An evil victim must make a reflex save or be blinded for one round.
Sonic: The victim must make a fortitude save or be deafened for 3 rounds.
2) Unexpected Lunge: The fighter may move 5-feet to an unoccupied square during or in response to actions in another person’s turn. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. While this trick may be used to move a fighter out of melee range in some cases, a foe is entitled to adjust movement in response (provided the foe has unspent movement left at that point) and can re-aim ranged attacks at the fighter as normal.
3) Combat Leadership: The fighter offers a suggestion on how best to attack a group of enemies based on his or her extensive battle experience. Allies who comply gain a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls for 3 rounds.
4) Press: Through a series of cunning attacks, the fighter attempts to draw an opponent who is distracted by combat with other foes into an untenable defensive stance. This trick is begun as part of an attack or full attack action, which takes place as normal. However, after the attack is initiated (regardless of whether it succeeds) if the victim chooses to target any individual in the combat besides the fighter with any ability, the fighter gains a +3 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls against that victim. These bonuses last for one round, but may be re-applied at any point in the three rounds after the initiating attack if the victim chooses to target anyone other than the fighter with an attack or ability. Foes who are immune to flanking are also immune to this trick.
Sample Level 2 Tricks:
1) Heroic Save: Carefully gauging a battle, a skilled warrior using this trick rushes forward in an attempt to push an ally out of the way of danger. If an ally within 10 feet is hit by any standard melee, ranged, or ray attack, the fighter may opt to try to use this trick. The fighter moves to any space adjacent to the ally in question (provoking attacks of opportunity), at which point the ally may choose to accept or resist the fighter’s aid. If the ally accepts, the fighter makes a combat maneuver roll. Should this roll exceed the original attack roll against the fighter’s ally, then the attack is automatically considered a miss but the ally is forced into a prone position. If the ally chooses to resist, the attack goes through as normal, the ally remains standing, and the fatigue points remain spent.
2) Fight Enchantment: Through intensive physical and mental training, a fighter who uses this trick learns to delay the onset of certain deleterious effects. A fighter may use this trick when failing a save against any mind-affecting ability, or any other magic or supernatural effect causing blindness, paralysis, stunning, dazing, confusion, or petrification so long as a saving throw is allowed. When used, the effect in question is delayed for 1 round after which the fighter is subject to the full normal effect. This trick cannot be used against abilities that do not allow saving throws.
3) Blind Opponent: A fighter using this trick attempts to debilitate an enemy by attacking their eyes. The fighter must be able to make a number of attacks in a single round equal to the number of eyes possessed by the opponent. The fighter takes a –5 penalty to attacks, and must hit at least once within a single round for every eye possessed by the enemy. Damage is dealt as normal. If these attacks succeed, the victim must make a reflex save or become permanently blinded. (This condition may be cured as normal with a Remove Blindness/Deafness spell, Heal, Restoration, Regeneration, etc). Non-living creatures and those without eyes are immune to this ability.
4) Cunning Drive: Through a set of sly attacks, a fighter attempts to force opponents to tire themselves by making them dodge about. Once activated, this trick lasts for the rest of the encounter. During this period, every time a victim is attacked twice by the fighter they must make a fortitude save or become fatigued for one round.
Sample Level 3 Tricks:
1) Battlestorm: Through a titanic exertion of will and energy, a highly skilled fighter may temporarily speed his or her movements in battle. This replicates the effects of the Haste spell, and lasts a maximum of 5 rounds. After this duration has expired the fighter becomes fatigued for the rest of the encounter.
2) Barrier of Steel: The fighter attempts to hold a location by weaving a clever network of strikes around those who approach nearby. Once activated, this trick lasts 5 rounds. Opponents may enter or exit the fighter’s threatened area as normal. However, to move from one square threatened by the fighter to another, they must succeed at a combat maneuver check. Failure ends that movement action (or 5-foot step). Furthermore, this trick allows the fighter to take an attack of opportunity each time an opponent leaves a threatened square, provided that the fighter has sufficient attacks of opportunity. (Normally, movement inside a foe’s threat range constitutes one single opportunity).
3) Finishing Blow: Against a hindered opponent, a highly skilled warrior is capable of leveling a particularly lethal strike. This trick may only be used against a prone opponent. Unlike other combat tricks, this requires a standard action, and provokes attacks of opportunity. The fighter makes a single attack against the downed opponent at a –7 penalty. If this hits, the blow is automatically considered a critical hit, which applies even against opponents not normally subject to critical hits. If not dispatched by the damage, a living foe must make a fortitude save or perish.
| KaeYoss |
Nope. No powers or manoeuvres for the fighter. There should always be the option of playing a simple swordswinger without the need to track anything like spells or uses per day.
That's the fighter's role.
I don't mind some extra juice for the fighter (especially in the form of high-level feats), but it should be remain the class for those who don't want to look up too many things and just put sharp things into soft things that scream and bleed.
| Shadowdweller |
Nope. No powers or manoeuvres for the fighter. There should always be the option of playing a simple swordswinger without the need to track anything like spells or uses per day.
That's the fighter's role.
Because it takes soooo much less effort to look up the benefits of various feats and to ensure that the various prerequisites do not become lost? Because limited-use-per-day abilities are just too complicated? *rolleyes*
| Brent Stroh |
Because it takes soooo much less effort to look up the benefits of various feats and to ensure that the various prerequisites do not become lost? Because limited-use-per-day abilities are just too complicated? *rolleyes*
Because turning the fighter into a variant ToB subclass may be too big a step away from 3E/OGL backward compatibility, which is a primary design goal for Pathfinder?
| Shadowdweller |
Because turning the fighter into a variant ToB subclass may be too big a step away from 3E/OGL backward compatibility, which is a primary design goal for Pathfinder?
Ah, but then how does one reconcile the rage point mechanic for the Barbarian? One might as easily create a similar system by means of limited-use-per-day feats. Would you -still- think it to be non-compatible?
*shrug* YMMV. I just happen to think tactical diversity, niche balance, playability should trump exacting faithfulness to flawed previous editions.
| KaeYoss |
Because it takes soooo much less effort to
be condescending towards people? Well, that's true, but it won't earn you any respect. I didn't even read on. I thought: "well, he has to go Apple on my, so he can't have anything worthwhile to say". The rude approach simply doesn't work here.
| Quandary |
The non-magical-feel abilities you listed would be a great addition. The 5' move at any moment is a great ability to let the Fighter 'occupy' the battlefield, and force the enemy to engage on terms the Fighter chooses. "Barrier of Steel" is cool idea, though probably TOO powerful with something like a Spiked Chain, or when Enlarged -- I wouldn' want to come up against NPC/ Monsters swinging that s#+!.
The 'magic-feel' abilities, like the Elemental Attack -- I mean straight up, just take levels in Barbarian!!! The tactical abiliities I mentoned above are great, because they extend what the Fighter should be great at. They shouldn't get to bypass magic or cause magic-effects just because you've swung their sword around alot.
It's somewhat implicit in the game that a high-level Fighter will have, if not caster allies buffing him, access to magic items which cover his weaknesses/ extend his abilities. Abilities like your "Blinding Attack" -- Why not just have some para-magical Blinding Powder available for purchase that uses a Touch attack? Because then the Fighter would have to switch from his Bastard Sword? Well, I guess then you DO need Quick Draw.
I really liked the class build that Squirreloid posted here a while ago, but I think it'd be about as useful if similar (non-magicky) abilities were added via new Feats, preferably in Feat Trees or with BAB requirements to allow more effective maneuvers, but at appropriate levels. I think that allows a similar 'gradation' of abilities like you indicated with your 3-tier mockup...
Waiting for Beta...
| Shadowdweller |
The non-magical-feel abilities you listed would be a great addition. The 5' move at any moment is a great ability to let the Fighter 'occupy' the battlefield, and force the enemy to engage on terms the Fighter chooses. "Barrier of Steel" is cool idea, though probably TOO powerful with something like a Spiked Chain, or when Enlarged -- I wouldn' want to come up against NPC/ Monsters swinging that s!~~.
Yeah, it's powerful. I rather assumed something like this would probably become available to a combat class by about the time you had casters slinging around 8th level spells. Compare that to: Wall spells, repel metal, antilife shell, prismatic sphere, etc.
It's somewhat implicit in the game that a high-level Fighter will have, if not caster allies buffing him, access to magic items which cover his weaknesses/ extend his abilities. Abilities like your "Blinding Attack" -- Why not just have some para-magical Blinding Powder available for purchase that uses a Touch attack? Because then the Fighter would have to switch from his Bastard Sword? Well, I guess then you DO need Quick Draw.
I'd personally love to see blinding powder as well. Actually, some of the reasons I included something like this was because 1) gouging eyes has been part of general martial fiction (if not RL historical combat), and 2) to sort of bring back some of the flavor of called shots.
Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to read it :)
lastknightleft
|
KaeYoss wrote:Towards people who were themselves rude in the first place? Expect it every single time.
be condescending towards people? Well, that's true, but it won't earn you any respect. I didn't even read on.
He wasn't being rude, he was merely stating his position, any rudeness you see is what you are reading into it. You however were being deliberately rude by implying that his statements were foolish.
| Shadowdweller |
He wasn't being rude, he was merely stating his position, any rudeness you see is what you are reading into it. You however were being deliberately rude by implying that his statements were foolish.
That "Nope." doesn't strike you as being at all rude when applying to idea a person has devoted any significant amount of time on? Being, you know, a matter of opinion - something subjective. If you think so, I'll respectfully disagree. That said, I'll grant that my rebuttal could have been made more diplomatically.
| Dennis da Ogre |
That "Nope." doesn't strike you as being at all rude when applying to idea a person has devoted any significant amount of time on? Being, you know, a matter of opinion - something subjective. If you think so, I'll respectfully disagree. That said, I'll grant that my rebuttal could have been made more diplomatically.
Thus are flamewars born. It was a very direct statement but on the rude scale nowhere near as offensive as your comment.
FWIW, I agree with Kae. As for your comment, I have a player who has trouble with the barbarian rage mechanism in 3.5. It's not that she's stupid it's just that she wants to come to the table and have fun and learning a bunch of complex rules isn't part of her definition of fun.
I wouldn't object to an alternate martial class that had some sort of maneuvers but leave the core fighter alone. Actually introducing some fighter only feat trees which enable maneuvers would also be cool with me. But the core class needs to be easy to run.