Well, now 4E is "out and working" and there are people actually playing iy. Still, the absolute majority of threads still end in "edition wars" or, more recently, "company wars".
While CWM suggested to simply "end" the edition wars, I like the fact that these boards are a democratic place were people can freely express their feelings. I understand that many people are upset with WotC/Hasbro and I by no means wish to take their right to express they opinions.
However, there are people who are playing the game or want to play it, and want to make questions or share experiences about rules, character optimization, house rules, adventure ideas, homebrew material, etc. It's sad to see that even threads with such intentions, such as this, end up in edition wars as eventually someone says how much they despise 4E/WotC tactics, and another person says that they shouldn' despise them, and that continues until the thread completely loses its purpose.
Therefore, I suggest doing like EnWorld and split the boards in two:
D&D 4E Gaming: For those who are playing/DMing or interested on playing/DMing 4E, and want to share their gaming experiences with it (rules, house rules, character optimization, homebrew material, adventures, etc.)
D&D 4E Analysis and Criticism: For those who want to talk about their opinions about D&D 4E and perhaps WotC/Hasbro, whether is love or hate, or just comment about specific issues.
Thoughts?
Senior Software Developer
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I've been pondering something like this, but haven't yet really raised it as an issue for discussion with the rest of the staff.
I have a couple initial concerns: One, that people won't play nice and will continue to threadcrap and play Edition War Troll in both forums. (They're already polluting the Pathfinder RPG forums, and I wish everyone would just stop before we have to start moderating there, too.) Two, that the "let's argue about editions" forum will turn into a place where the warfare never ends, like some bad original series Star Trek episode.
I'm hoping that as time goes on people will just calm down, but I'm not terribly sanguine about that hope right now.
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I'm in the 4e & PRPG camp--I plan to run both; and if I can't find anyone to play, I still plan to read and learn about both.
I still have my own snarky moments regarding 4e, but I'm much more interested, now that I have the books, in actual discussion about playing 4e.
Amazingly, my thread regarding how to run a 4e Greyhawk campaign with a traditional feel has garnered almost 98% on-topic posts, but every time I turn around twice there's another good 4e thread that gets overrun by activists for and against the system or WotC. I'd like a split area, too. Unfortunately, there's no really viable way that'll truly result in what KL and I are looking for.
I've said before that I want the Paizo 4e forum to be the best place on the internet to discuss 4e.
I still really want that to happen.
All you need is a laser to shoot the Trolls and the Threadcrappers Gary. A big laser. With shiny red buttons.
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I've said before that I want the Paizo 4e forum to be the best place on the internet to discuss 4e.
I still really want that to happen.
Well, you've done a good job so far. It's the first (and often only) place that I go to discuss 4e. Believe it or not, it's much more civil than any other board I've checked.
Also, it's not blocked by my work web surfing filters.
Same-same and ditto.
I've said before that I want the Paizo 4e forum to be the best place on the internet to discuss 4e.
I still really want that to happen.
Well, I'm a newbie posting here at the paizo boards because even with the threadcrapping and the trolling and the mob mentality and the passive aggressive bullcrap going on here, it does seem like the best place to discuss 4e and get some reasonable feedback.
Sure, I think Baiting needs to be added to the list of things you're not allowed to do on the 4e boards, and I'd like to see a little quicker throwing of the yellow flag, when it's still "unsportsman-like conduct 5 yard penalty" rather than "time for you to go to the locker room".
If you think that a separate "Opinion vs Mechanics" section would accomplish that, I'm on board.
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In all honesty the best way, in my opinion, is to keep one forum and make it for PLAYING 4E. I know the trolls and others will jump in, but IF someone can moderate it for a few weeks and jump in and kill it right away, people will get the message and stop doing it.
Or you can wait a few months or so, probably until after PfRPG comes out next year, and people will calm down some.
Can't we all just get along?
I left for a while due to the hostility of the boards (everywhere, not just the 4E forum (which didn't even exist then)) but having recently come back it is much, MUCH better now. Everyone seems to have just taken a breath and calmed down.
I do find the forum structure here very hard to navigate (do you really need a separate forum for each alpha release of PFRPG and the RPG Superstar - round by round(!) and
holy crap - I just found out what those little arrows are next to the names of each forum!!! Forget everything I just posted (except that the forums are way nicer now :) )
Why not discuss 4E over on the WOTC Site and discuss Paizo products on these forums..
To me thats the best way to do it.
Because the people here aren't necessarily there? Suggesting that anyone who likes 4E should just leave is, to me, a return to the bad old days of early 2008.
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I like how creative everyone is on the Paizo boards.
There was some frustrations with WOTC by a lot of people but it was a LOT better here than other boards. And granted I was quite unhappy too, and hope I never offended anyone.
I can be perceived as a bit snarky online, which is because no one sees the smile as I post. And it is hard to predict how your words will be perceived online.
So, if I have offended anyone, I do apologize.
However, there are people who are playing the game or want to play it, and want to make questions or share experiences about rules, character optimization, house rules, adventure ideas, homebrew material, etc. It's sad to see that even threads with such intentions, such as this, end up in edition wars as eventually someone says how much they despise 4E/WotC tactics, and another person says that they shouldn' despise them, and that continues until the thread completely loses its purpose.
You do realize that any material for 4e MUST be covered by the GSL (a seperate one for fansites will be forthcoming), and that any 'made up' material will must likely be in violation of that contract, which means any sort of conversions or 'homebrew' ideas you would like to discuss while on Paizo's site will wind up with Paizo in a lawsuit?
Unfortunetly, the only thing 'allowed' under their own rules is critique... good or bad.
I have no problem with people discussing or liking 4e - I was planning on running a game of my own to test the rules. I am also a memebr of at least two sites that were planning on cross-editions conversions from 4e rules to 3e FR, and 3e rules to 4e FR... but that is no longer possible because of their own GSL.
They've have drawn a line in the sand, and now people are forced to choose (as far as web development or print books are concerned), and I think they have once again bitten themselves in the Tukus.
I would like to have been part of open discussions between editions, but any sort of creative endeavors to that end are now in violation of their own license.
Therefore, Paizo CANNOT create a seperate board for such a thing, and we must use only the existing board, however counter-productive that may be.
In fact, they better be modding their butts of on that board, making sure no-one accidently posts any 'alternative rules/creatures', stat blocks, rules information, or conversions - I'm sure WotC would love to slap Paizo with a lawsuit.
Of course, I think that only matters if they sign that rather silly, one-sided agreement.
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I am not sure that the GSL applies at all to this situation. The GSL applies to third parties publishers who are publishing their matierials.
The difference is that while Paizo is a third party publisher, they in fact are not the ones posting the materials nor are they actually publishing the materials.
The GSL does not in any way apply to people who are just freely sharing ideas, like us.
Why not discuss 4E over on the WOTC Site and discuss Paizo products on these forums..
To me thats the best way to do it.
Psychotic Warrior have answered well. For all its problems, I still prefer the Paizo boards than the WotC boards. At least I can say here the majority of people have an sense of education and are into deeper discussions.
However, there are people who are playing the game or want to play it, and want to make questions or share experiences about rules, character optimization, house rules, adventure ideas, homebrew material, etc. It's sad to see that even threads with such intentions, such as this, end up in edition wars as eventually someone says how much they despise 4E/WotC tactics, and another person says that they shouldn' despise them, and that continues until the thread completely loses its purpose.You do realize that any material for 4e MUST be covered by the GSL (a seperate one for fansites will be forthcoming), and that any 'made up' material will must likely be in violation of that contract, which means any sort of conversions or 'homebrew' ideas you would like to discuss while on Paizo's site will wind up with Paizo in a lawsuit?
No, you are misunderstanding things.
When the GSL mentions that it doesn't apply to web sites, it means that you can't apply an web site to the GSL. In other words, it will be subject to regular copyright laws - just like AD&D 1E/2E, GURPS, or any other system that doesn't have any special license, and I'm sure that you won't be issued if you post a custom-made AD&D 1E statblock.
Don't worry; EnWorld has an entire webpage with 4E fan-created stuff, and they won't be issued because of this.
For more information, refer to the EnWorld's GSL FAQ.
HOWEVER...
Converting 4e material into 3e, or vice-versa, IS against the rules, and its bound to happen with people 'freely' posting their ideas.
New ideas are fine, but at what point does something become 'derivitive'? And with that license, WotC gets to decide that (EVERYTHING, including maintaining the license itself, is up to their discretion). Also, the license allows changes to itself to hold violaters retroactively responsible for changes made to the license.
I just think discussing anything 4e by parties signing that agreement is treading on very thin ice. Since I don't think Paizo has any plans to sign, they should be okay - the worst WotC can do to non-signers is issue a Cease-and-desist order to them.
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well, since I did not sign an agreement with WOTC, and I doubt most anyone else on the boards did, that part of the GSL does not apply to us or the situation.
Remember the ENTIRETY of the GSL ONLY applies to 3rd party publishers who sign paperwork agreeing to the GSL.
For the rest of us it has no real meaning at all.
You have to remember that the GSL does NOT apply here. You are giving it way more credit than it has.
The worst WOTC can do to non-signers is nothing. As long as copyright and trademark laws are not violated (which ALWAYS applies to any game, product or book, music, art or whatever) then there is nothing at all they can do.
HOWEVER...
Converting 4e material into 3e, or vice-versa, IS against the rules, and its bound to happen with people 'freely' posting their ideas.
New ideas are fine, but at what point does something become 'derivitive'? And with that license, WotC gets to decide that (EVERYTHING, including maintaining the license itself, is up to their discretion). Also, the license allows changes to itself to hold violaters retroactively responsible for changes made to the license.
I suggest you to read the FAQ I posted.
To be more clear, the GSL is a contract, not a copyright. It has absolutely no legal effect unless you agree with it. WotC can't invade your home and force you to sign a contract with them. Even if Paizo agreed with the GSL, it wouldn't apply to boards because: 1. it can't be applied, as the boards are not a printed publication neither a single-download PDF; 2. it won't be applied unless Paizo wants to (and you can be sure they won't).
Of course, the boards are subject to copyright laws. Just like any 3E boards for that matter, as they aren't identified as Open Game Content and thus are not subject to the OGL. Don't worry about that; you are not violating any copyright law by converting 3.5E stuff to 4E and posting it, as copyright laws apply to actual text, not rules. Even if you violate a copyright (post a entire paragraph from the PHB, for instance), WotC won't sue you because:
1. It is probably under Fair Use laws.
2. They don't have absolutely any interest on suing you. Why would a company take legal actions against their fans which are contributing to promote the game?
True, but for anyone who does sign that contract, WotC can change the rules of the game anytime they want, and hold you lible retroactively.
But only if people sign it...
2. They don't have absolutely any interest on suing you. Why would a company take legal actions against their fans which are contributing to promote the game?
Ummmmmm....
EVERYTHING they have done in the past nine months was designed to chase fans away. A worse PR campaign has never been seen, AFAIK.
And they ARE going to come out with a seperate one for websites, and fansites will have just TWO options - Sign it, and follow ALL of their rules (including NO conversions), or don't sign, and recieve a "Cease and Desist" order.
WotC has issued such orders to three other sites in the past two years - the last one being Sarbreener. They went after the biggest first, and they will eventually force everyone to comply or "get out of Tombstone", as the saying goes.
Just you watch - They'll make post-Star Wars George Lucas look like a friendly gent when it comes to suiing anybody and everybody.
Contributor
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Of course they can certainly tell Paizo to reign in their message boards and if Paizo fails to satisfy them could revoke Paizo's GSL privileges.You mean the privileges that Paizo haven't signed up to as they haven't signed up to the GSL yet, nor show much intention of doing so in the future?
I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the previous poster's hypothetical scenario wherein Paizo does sign up for the GSL.
Right... as I've said, all of this hinges on weather they sign it or not, and I'm pretty sure they won't, so the point is moot.
You can't get in trouble for NOT agreeing to something.
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Of course they can certainly tell Paizo to reign in their message boards and if Paizo fails to satisfy them could revoke Paizo's GSL privileges.
Paizo has not signed the GSL. If they had, they would be unable to publish the Pathfinder RPG.
So, again, nothing WOTC can do.
You guys are giving way too much power to the GSL. It only affects businesses crazy enough to actually sign it.
The way it is designed it is crazy for a business to sign the GSL. I would worry about any company that does to be honest.
So, back on thread...
I still think 4E should remain one main entity and just the flamers are censored until people learn some manners.
Gotta agree with Krome, and a lot of other on this thread. There's no need to create a specific place for something you're trying to avoid all together as administrators and moderators...
One 4e board, with moderation is the way I'd go.
EVERYTHING they have done in the past nine months was designed to chase fans away. A worse PR campaign has never been seen, AFAIK.
And they ARE going to come out with a seperate one for websites, and fansites will have just TWO options - Sign it, and follow ALL of their rules (including NO conversions), or don't sign, and recieve a "Cease and Desist" order.
WotC has issued such orders to three other sites in the past two years - the last one being Sarbreener. They went after the biggest first, and they will eventually force everyone to comply or "get out of Tombstone", as the saying goes.
Just you watch - They'll make post-Star Wars George Lucas look like a friendly gent when it comes to suiing anybody and everybody.
The point is, WotC can sue you for posting 4E stuff just like they can sue for posting 3.5E stuff, unless that you claim that what you are presenting is Open Gaming Content (which in turn allows any publisher, including WotC, to pick up what you wrote and sell it without giving any credit to you). If you don't present it as Open Gaming Content, then it's not covered by the OGL, and it's subject to all copyright laws just like the 4E stuff that you post.
That said, there are not going to sue you for posting on a message boards. Message boards are not fan sites. They are a place for fans of the game to discuss, and this advances the hobby as a whole. Fan sites may have this purpose, but in the other hand, they may, even unintentionally, "compete" with the actual product. If I publish my own modified version of the 4E rules on my website, and if these modified rules become riduculously sucessful and impact negatively on the sales of 4E books, then I'm competing with WotC, and it's on their right to sue me because I'm using the system that they developed and they invested on.
Before the release of 3E, TSR also sued many fansites, after all, AD&D wasn't "Open Content" at all. Just like you may expect White Wolf to sue you if you are going to make a fan website that uses their copyrighted material and is capable of competing with Storytelling. But I've never heard about either WotC or TSR "suing" message boards.
Boy it'll be nice when we can stop talking about "WOTC this..." and "WOTC that..." again. :/
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*sigh*
WOTC cannot sue me or anyone else for posting 4E or 3.x materials on message boards, unless the post violates copyright laws.
To violate copyright laws I have to copy large expanses of copyrighted material verbatim. If at any point I give reference to the copyrighted work it is fine. If I rewrite the material using my own language, it is safe from copyright laws.
So to end this once and for all.
WOTC cannot do anything about anything to anyone unless you sign a contract with them and send it to them.
The GSL and even the OGL is not applicable in any way shape or form to individual people.
I think splitting the boards is a good idea. Although, I think personally that Wizards of the Coast made a strategic error, splitting the boards up is a good idea.
It allows everyone to discuss the new edition of the game without interruption.
So, if I have offended anyone, I do apologize.
Bah! I hope I did offend some people. America (yes, I am being US-centric) was founded by individuals who were being impolite and uncivil. Thank you, sir, can I have some more please vs. take your tea and shove it.