Newbie here. I just downloaded the Alpha 3 this evening; for the most part, I liked everything I saw, but when I got to the feats chapter I just had to close the pdf and give it a rest.
It appears that the majority of fighter feats are now (Combat) feats. It also appears that only one combat feat can be used at a time. In otherwords, you cannot use Cleave and Dodge in the same round.
I think I'm missreading something. If so, hey, that's what messageboards are there for.
If not, though.. I don't understand how this change is anything but destructive..
I haven't played many fighters, but based on my experience, it usually goes something like this.
A fighter takes Power Attack and Cleave. They both serve him well, enough that he invests in Great Cleave as well. However, he finds himself coming under a lot of fire jumping into enemy gangs, so he picks up Dodge to help keep himself alive. Having already gone that far, he later splurges on Mobolity and thus earns access to Spring Attack. He finds that the potential for a cleave makes his single attack from Spring Attack much more worthwhile; letting him leap into a gang (relying on Dodge and Mobility to resist the AoOs that get through), tear up as many mooks as he can kill with one swing, and then get out before they strike back. He finds himself falling into a nice comphy nitch with his party- enemies are chasing him around angrily while his friends set up powerful spell combos, and his feats let him fight back while staying out of the way of allied fire. Later on, he reads about a new feat that would grant him concealment as long as he moves in a round . . .
Etc. etc. That's the beauty of playing a fighter: every feat you take makes every other feat you've taken slightly better. "Fighting styles" develop from high-synergy clusters of feats. If the lion's share of feats don't play nice with eachother, though, then that is no longer the case.
Why are we changing this?
And why, exactly, are we still giving the fighter 11 extra feats if he can only use a couple at a time?
Well at first, Jason Bulmahn thought it was a good Idea. But then he wrote in "this" Blog on "May. 23rd, 2008" that he was dropping the Combat feats.
Boy, this thing is going to be a monster. I spent all day today at work (about 10 1/2 hours) reworking the entire feats chapter, adding in all of the missing feats, reworking that damnable chart, and monkeying with some existing choices... (good bye Combat feats, you were an interesting experiment that turned out not to be worth the headache).
And in "this" thread he said:
Hey there all,
Busy working on the Beta, so I will be brief. The combat feats were, for the most part, converted to ordinary feats. Note that I kept the Combat Feat type, I just changed its meaning to that of a Fighter Bonus Feat (makes em easier to find).
A couple got deleted, a number of them got significantly altered....
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ahh, I see.
The prompt and very well-informed replies are quite refreshing( and to be honest, make me feel a little abashed that I didn't dig more myself). Thanks.
...but I assumed the basic idea was to force characters to adapt their fighting style to the situation, rather than stack everything together. ...
I see what you mean. Book of Nine Swords did something close to this with fun results (although those guys were sort of caster/fighter hybrids in how they played).
But, yea, "force" was the problem. I personally think that a subset of non-stacking feats (more powerful, but more restrictive in that you can't pile them on, instead having to choose one for each situation) would be pretty interesting. This is what I expected when I first read the "combat feat" description. Making a humble feat like Dodge one of them would be going a little far, though.
It's surprising how fast this game is changing; I didn't think the Alpha 3 had been out that long.
Newbie here. I just downloaded the Alpha 3 this evening; for the most part, I liked everything I saw, but when I got to the feats chapter I just had to close the pdf and give it a rest.
It appears that the majority of fighter feats are now (Combat) feats. It also appears that only one combat feat can be used at a time. In otherwords, you cannot use Cleave and Dodge in the same round.
I think I'm missreading something. If so, hey, that's what messageboards are there for.
If not, though.. I don't understand how this change is anything but destructive..
You're lucky you didn't download Alpha 1; the situation was even worse! Most combat feats worked along the lines of "if you used combat feat X the previous round, now you can do Y". For instance, if you used Dodge in round 1, then you could use Mobility in round 2. And if you used Mobility in round 2, then (and only then!) you could use Spring Attack in round 3. The idea of building up combos is kind of neat (and it still survives with Gorgon's Fist/Medusa's Fist), but using Spring Attack once every three rounds!? Forget it!
Personally, I had no problems with the whole "picking a combat feat" for that round... the feats have been increased in Power, at least those are in that category seem to have been increased, and I thought it was balancing to make you choose. Dodge used to work against one opponent, now it just works anytime, all the time? Nice feat! Lots better than Skill Focus, don'tcha think? And Cleave can be used to make an extra attack anytime you hit with the first attack? Again, great feat! Beats the hell out of Athletic or Deft Hands, wouldn't you say? If you can use all of them all the time, I think there might be a balance issue...
Also, quick question... is there a difference between Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse? I noticed that rogues can choose Weapon Finesse as a rogue talent, or can take a feat in Agile Maneuvers... is there a difference? Obviously, any rogue with a higher Dex than their Str score should take Agile Maneuvers, so what would be the advantage of ever choosing the Weapon Finesse feat?
Personally, I had no problems with the whole "picking a combat feat" for that round... the feats have been increased in Power, at least those are in that category seem to have been increased, and I thought it was balancing to make you choose. Dodge used to work against one opponent, now it just works anytime, all the time? Nice feat! Lots better than Skill Focus, don'tcha think? And Cleave can be used to make an extra attack anytime you hit with the first attack? Again, great feat! Beats the hell out of Athletic or Deft Hands, wouldn't you say? If you can use all of them all the time, I think there might be a balance issue...
Dodge was a terrable feat. It's now acceptable, albet not great. Cleave works completely different (you have to take a full-round action and give up all your attacks to use it; basically 3.5 wirlwind but less powerful). I think it's actually weaker than the old one, which gave a free attack every round or two and didn't require you to give up anything.
Skill feats have always sucked in combat (except for certian builds). They still suck in combat, but if you make them better they could become broken out of combat, depending on the game. It's why I dislike systems which have you buy combat powers and non-combat powers with the same resources (they let people min-max, or nerf themselves, depending on how you look at it), but we're too late in the game to change that now.
It should be noted that sometimes, skill feats are actually pretty good. For example, if you're a bard (in PRPG) who's gotten high enough to earn some offensive bardsongs, Skill Focus is +3 to the DC. Not too shabby.
Also, quick question... is there a difference between Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse? I noticed that rogues can choose Weapon Finesse as a rogue talent, or can take a feat in Agile Maneuvers... is there a difference? Obviously, any rogue with a higher Dex than their Str score should take Agile Maneuvers, so what would be the advantage of ever choosing the Weapon Finesse feat?
Agile Maneuvers only lets you sub Dex for Str when determining your CMB, where as Weapon Finesse only lets you sub Dex for Str when wielding a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain.