I’ve been going through a few different books trying to put more depth into Jereth. Here are a few ideas I have. The Halton family is one of the ‘New Money’ families in Magnimar. They claim a noble title, but the details seem to have been lost somewhere during the time when the Haltons moved from Cheliax to Magnimar some seventy years ago and established themselves as merchants. Jereth, as a younger son, was not in line to take over the family title, Baron of Willowgrove, or the family business, Halton’s Holdings. So, the family decided to find something else for this ‘extra’ son to do. They thought about sending him off to be a cleric, but didn’t see any real profit in that. So, they found a noble family willing to foster the four year old boy. There hopes were that he would find an influential wife and thus benefit the family while they wouldn’t have to worry about paying for his education and could concentrate on the more ‘important’ children.
The family which took Jereth in was the Keldonza family, They live in the Marble District and also have a country estate beyond the city limits. The Keldonzas are an honorable family and have always sought to do what is right for their city. They even train their own children, as well as the children of other noble families, as Knights who protect the family’s holdings as well as providing a small, but well trained, cavalry force for Magnimar when war threatens. Still, despite their efforts, the Keldonzas have very little true power in the city. Most of their money comes from fees paid to them in exchange for the services of their Knights and taxes from their holdings outside of the city.
Jereth never knew the truth about his family’s desires, since the Keldonza elders decided not to tell him, and so he grew up believing that his role in life was to be a good Knight and make his foster family proud of him. He has sworn no oath of fealty to them yet, for they have decided that only a true Knight may give his oath and Jereth is still only a Squire. He is the Squire of Dame Elaina Keldonza. She is the youngest daughter of the Keldonza family at this time. He has served her for two years now, even since he was eighteen, and looks forward to the day when she, or another noble who appreciates his skill and bravery, grants him the title of Knight and the freedom to choose his of path. He has also been out of contact with his own family for nearly ten years and doesn’t know why.
Important words,
Humility, The deeds should speak of the man, not the other way around.
Chastity, not necessarily abstinence. This has more to do with respect.
Justice, the law isn’t perfect, but the power of men can make it so.
Chivalry, use your strength to protect those without it.
Fealty, if a man doesn’t stand for something he’ll fall for anything.
Courage in the face of your enemies.
Valor, both on and off the battlefield.
Honesty, for when a man lies he murders part of the world.
Mercy, for even the fallen deserve their dignity.
Honor, both your own and that of others.
Goodness, There is a basic core of goodness in everyone, some just hide it well.
None of this is final yet. I’m just going through ideas. If you want me to change something let me know.
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Jinn,
Looks good to me with just the once over. I'll try and flip through it a bit more carefully in the morning.
Danni,
I just cracked open my PHB II to look over the class features you were asking about. I have no problem what-so-ever with the rejuvenation ability and that will certainly help you cover some of the healing aspects of the group since you don't have a cleric.
As for the shifter ability, I don't mind it, however I know you haven't looked through the alpha yet very thoroughly and you might want to give the updated druid a peak. I think that wildshape is one of those abilities that has been very altered and it now functions much more like the shifter ability out of that book(giving boosts to stats, and adding abilities based on the form you take, rather then you having to re-stat you yourself up as the creature). You may want to give it a consideration, just because the more it gets playtested the better it will be in the final product, but if you aren't happy with that solution I don't mind the shifter alternate.
-Tarlane
here is the gnomish ranger. I havn't fished filling everything out, but the major parts of his background and ability scores are there
also - did we decide on a starting HP method?they all work for me
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Jereth and Tamai,
Both those backgrounds look great, they certainly offer a lot of possibilities for things that can be mixed in the future to add to these stories. Great job.
Tamai,
I think that since no one had anything else they said they preferred we were going to go with the bonus HP based on race(honestly though, I tend to think gnomes should fall in the hardy race category rather then the frail one. They get a con bonus like dwarves after all).
-Tarlane
Jinn,
Looks good to me with just the once over. I'll try and flip through it a bit more carefully in the morning.
Danni,
I just cracked open my PHB II to look over the class features you were asking about. I have no problem what-so-ever with the rejuvenation ability and that will certainly help you cover some of the healing aspects of the group since you don't have a cleric.
As for the shifter ability, I don't mind it, however I know you haven't looked through the alpha yet very thoroughly and you might want to give the updated druid a peak. I think that wildshape is one of those abilities that has been very altered and it now functions much more like the shifter ability out of that book(giving boosts to stats, and adding abilities based on the form you take, rather then you having to re-stat you yourself up as the creature). You may want to give it a consideration, just because the more it gets playtested the better it will be in the final product, but if you aren't happy with that solution I don't mind the shifter alternate.
-Tarlane
I stayed up late last night breezing the alpha book, I will keep the normal wildshape and try it out. I'll take the Spontaneous Rejuvenation though as I like the idea of more focus on healing than animal summoning.
I think I'm going to like Nature Bond from the alpha. I am leaning towards taking the Weather domain. I'll be creating a new avatar for this Danni today with the stats I assigned.
What source books can we choose feats from? My preference is definitely biased to the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Here is the character I'll be playing, I'm in the middle of creation still so it's bare at the moment.
D-
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Danni,
I have a pretty wide selection of the wizards of the coasts books on my end, though I think I'm going to try and keep things closer to the complete books and the phb II, in addition to core stuff. I don't mind adding some of these splat book feats as it will let us see how they mix with the alpha system.
I know you had exalted stuff in your original character and I have access to that book as well. I find some of the stuff in there to work really great, but some of it seems unbalancing, mostly due to differences between 3.0 and 3.5 I think. If you want some feats out of there, let me know what you are building towards and I'll approve them or we can potentially try and re-balance them to keep the same feel.
-Tarlane
Danni,
I have a pretty wide selection of the wizards of the coasts books on my end, though I think I'm going to try and keep things closer to the complete books and the phb II, in addition to core stuff. I don't mind adding some of these splat book feats as it will let us see how they mix with the alpha system.
I know you had exalted stuff in your original character and I have access to that book as well. I find some of the stuff in there to work really great, but some of it seems unbalancing, mostly due to differences between 3.0 and 3.5 I think. If you want some feats out of there, let me know what you are building towards and I'll approve them or we can potentially try and re-balance them to keep the same feel.
-Tarlane
The two I was looking at are and
I'll flip through and look at them when I get home this evening.
-Tarlane
Let me type them up here for you:
You are cloaked in a radiant light that marks you as a servant of
the purest ideals. All who look upon you know without a doubt
that you are a champion of good and are favored by the powers
of the Upper Planes. The nimbus may take the form of a cloud
surrounding your entire body, or it may appear as beams of light
around your head.
Benefit: Good creatures automatically recognize the radiance
surrounding you as a sign of your purity and devotion to
the powers of good. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all
Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks made when interacting
with good creatures.
Your radiance sheds light as a common lamp: bright light to a
radius of 5 feet and shadowy illumination to 10 feet. You can
extinguish this radiance at will and reactivate it again as a free
action.
You can increase the intensity of the light surrounding you to
damage undead creatures.
Prerequisites: Cha 15, Nimbus of Light.
Benefit: At will, as a free action, you can empower the radiance
surrounding you into a blazing glow that sheds bright light
in a 10-foot radius (and shadowy illumination out to 20 feet).
Undead within 10 feet of you take 1d4 points of damage per
round they remain within your halo.
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Danni,
Ok, I managed to look up those two feats and I don't have any real problem with them. Just as a warning though, while there are certainly undead in the campaign, they don't play a huge role in it, so while Holy Radiance will be useful at times there will be long periods where it is not used.
-Tarlane
Tarlane: Not a problem, it's more a character concept about how she brought some light back with her after being reborn.
I'm going to be playing more of a healer buffer anyway, and I see this as a way to keep them back while I heal the group.
D-
I updated my back story for this game, It's a lot less "Fey" as I'm not truly a Fey in this game. But essentially I still get to play the character I'm envisioning.
Woo!
D-
I updated my back story for this game, It's a lot less "Fey" as I'm not truly a Fey in this game. But essentially I still get to play the character I'm envisioning.
Woo!
D-
Thats because gnomes come from fey and I'm the gnome bwahahaha
Edit: I'll finish the crunch of the character tonight, I'm going to have limited comp acess tomorrow because I'm participating in Relay for Life
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You guys are starting to come together and look really good. Lets just try and finish up our characters and our backgrounds over the weekend, sorting out any questions you guys have or any additional splat stuff you can think you are going to want to incorporate, and I'll put up and intro post in the PbP boards monday morning, that way we aren't in too much of a rush but definitely have a goal of where to start.
Will also let me get a head start on prepping maps and adjusting some NPCs to Alpha rules.
-Tarlane
Am I correct in reading/assuming that when I choose to add points to a INT/DEX class skill for Druid. Using Fly for example, I get an additional +2 Racial bonus as dex/int are stats elves get bonuses in at character creation?
So for an elven druid I see:
Craft(int)
Fly(dex)
Knowledge nature(int)
Ride(dex)
Spellcraft(dex)
Swim(dex)
Do I get an extra +2 racial bonus on top of Class and Ability bonuses for these skills?
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Wiglaf,
I'd love to see what info you have and I certainly will make full use of it(even if with some modification) when you guys are in magnimar. The more info I have from you guys the more alive the city feels. Feel free to either post it here or send it to me in an email.
Danni,
Those are actually stat bonuses rather then skill ones. I just ran the numbers and you built your character with the proper point purchase system, but then those ability score adjustments are on top of that, and these are done after you do your point purchases(so they don't affect the cost.)
If you want your stats to stay very similar, I would lower either your dex or int by two and raise your con by two during the purchase process, then the racial adjustment would balance that out(and it would cost the same), but since every race has a net +2 bonus overall, whichever of your dex or int you didn't lower, would be two points higher in your stats.
So applying them right now would have your character be:
Strength 10
Dexterity 12
Constitution 8
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 14
Charisma 17
Without changing the point cost or the real layout, you could also have:
Strength 10
Dexterity 10
Constitution 10
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 14
Charisma 17
Or:
Strength 10
Dexterity 12
Constitution 10
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 17
-Tarlane
P.S. The players handbook for RotRL has bonus feats in it for first level and I am going to allow each of you to select one. I am going through it right now as there are a couple that need slight alterations to fit the Alpha rules. I will have it posted shortly.
Using the 20 point system i came up with:
str 10 (cost 0)
dex 08 (cost -2)
con 12 (cost +2)
int 10 (cost 0)
wis 14 (cost +5)
chr 17 (cost +13)
I then added elf modifiers. So while I would love to take one of the choices you offered it would be more than a 20 point buy system. I think your trying to tempt me to the dark side, but I'm exalted sir! I play by the rules.
/smirk
edit: Something above in my math looks odd...lemme re-check that. Ya I shafted myself 2 points worth, I'll put that back into dex and get a starting dex of 10 with the +2 bonus for 12 total.
Not sure how I missed that, I spent hours going over those numbers trying to get what I wanted out of the 20 point system.
D-
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Here is a list of feats out of the RotRL players handbook, updated slightly for Alpha rules.
As a note, I was strongly considering changing the varisian tattoo spell like ability, since casters now get cantrips at will anyway, however I decided note to, as we have no arcane casters in our group and all the cantrips provided are arcane, and if an arcane caster did take it they still get a big benefit and this means they essentially have a bonus always available cantrip without having to either prepare or learn it.
You are experienced in fighting the gigantic creatures that stalk Varisia’s landscape.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against Large or larger creatures.
City Born
You grew up in Magnimar, Korvosa, or Riddleport, one of Varisia’s three city-states. You are educated and well-informed on the news and needs of your home and hold tight to the knowledge that your city-state is unquestionably greater than the others.
Prerequisite: 1st-level character, cannot have Country Born or Lone Wolf.
Benefit: Choose Magnimar, Korvosa, or Riddleport as your home city. The frantic bustle of the city has honed your reactions—you gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. If you’re from Magnimar, you gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks. If you’re from Korvosa, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks. And if you’re from Riddleport, you gain a +2 bonus on Bluff checks.
Country Born
You come from one of Varisia’s rural regions, where you were raised in an environment of rustic tradition, honest work, and common sense.
Prerequisite: 1st-level character, cannot have City Born or Lone Wolf.
Benefit: A childhood of farm work, apprenticeship, or similar toil has granted you reserves of endurance. Once per day, when an effect would normally leave you fatigued or exhausted, you may ignore the fatigue or exhaustion effect. This ability activates the first time you are affected by fatigue or exhaustion in a day—you cannot “save” it to apply it to a specific effect. Your traditional upbringing has sharpened your willpower as well, granting a +1 bonus on Will saves.
Lone Wolf
Although you may have grown up in the city, you led a lonely childhood and were forced to fend for yourself.
Prerequisite: 1st-level, cannot have City Born or Country Born.
Benefit: Whenever you are dying, your chance of stabilizing is 50%. Your vigorous health also grants you a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves.
Totem Spirit
You are closely and mystically tied to your tribe’s sacred totem.
Prerequisite: Member of a Shoanti tribe.
Benefit: The benefit granted by this feat depends on which Shoanti tribe you belong to:
Lyrune-Quah (Moon Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Will saves and a +2 bonus on perception checks that have to do with sound.
Shadde-Quah (Axe Clan): If you have the rage ability, you gain an additional number of rage points equal to your constitution modifier. You also gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Shriikirri-Quah (Hawk Clan): You gain a +2 bonus on Initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Ride checks.
Shundar-Quah (Spire Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves and a +2 bonus on perception checks that have to do with vision.
Sklar-Quah (Sun Clan): You gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +2 bonus on acrobatics checks.
Skoan-Quah (Skull Clan): You gain a +2 bonus on weapon damage against undead and a +2 bonus on Heal checks.
Tamiir-Quah (Wind Clan): Your base land speed increases by 5 feet. You also gain a +2 bonus on acrobatics checks.
Varisian Tattoo
You bear intricate tattoos which inspire and empower your natural magical ability. These tattoos mark you as a worker of the ancient traditions of Varisian magic.A Varisian tattoo typically consists of a long string of characters in Thassilonian, the language found on the ancient monuments of the land. Most are quite complex, running the entire length of an arm or leg.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus in matching school.
Benefit: Select a school of magic other than divination in which you have Spell Focus—you cast spells from this school at +1 caster level.
Additionally, you can cast a single cantrip as a spelllike ability at will(caster level equals Hit Dice, save DC is Charisma-based).
The spell-like ability gained (and its Varisian name) are as follows:
Abjuration (Avidais): Resistance.
Conjuration (Idolis): Acid splash.
Enchantment (Carnasia): Daze.
Evocation (Ragario): Dancing lights.
Illusion (Vangloris): Ghost sound.
Necromancy (Voratalo): Touch of fatigue.
Transmutation (Avaria): Mage hand.
All of these feats are the sole property of Paizo Publishing and I'm hoping there is no problem with me reprinting them here since they are out of a freely distributed book.
-Tarlane
I also don't see any reference in the alpha for starting gold. What do we start with?
Also read the skill break down though the wording shows, and see what I was scratching my head at:
Untrained: 1d20 + Ability modifier + racial modifier
Trained: 1d20 + Skill ranks + ability modifier +
racial modifier
Trained Class Skill: 1d20 + Skill ranks + ability modifier +
racial modifier + 3
[/ooc]
See the racial mod on a trained, class skill? it seems to imply a greater bonus if it's your class skill, trained, and something your naturally good at via racial bonus.
Thanks,
D-
Tarlane,
Is it ok for my druid to take "Varisian Tattoo" and currently have it do nothing? I was planning on taking a sorcerer level at 2nd and I can then met the pre-req.
Also do you prefer DM or GM?
D-
Thanks. It'll be cool to work in the tattoos I got to start with turn out to have a magical effect later on.
On second though I had other plans for my 3rd level feat, so I'll skip that one.
D-
How about 'Oh Captain my Captain'? (Grins)
Here is the ideas that I was putting together.
Knights of Irespan
They are a LN organization, but they tend more towards the good side unlike the HellKnights. The Knights of Irespan are a private gathering of soldiers who 'officially' serve as the House Guards for House Keldonza and the other noble houses which participate, no more then ten different houses I think. Their first loyalty is to the noble house which sponsors the individual Knight, but their second loyalty is the Magnimar as a city. It is a small gathering, rarely more than fifty knights of various levels at any given time, but those present tend to be well trained and equipped. Other noble houses, and wealthy merchants, can request the assistance of the Knights of Irespan in protecting their goods and persons as caravan guards or performing other missions, and this also provides a steady stream of supplementary income.
All the Knights of Irespan are trained as cavalry with the use of lances. Another way that they earn funds, as well as gain popularity, is by participating in tournaments and jousts in the Serpent's Run. Each Knight is allowed to create their own Coat of Arms, but must ware a badge depicting an image resembling the Irespan bridge.
Most Knights are drawn from within the noble houses who control them, but it is not unheard of for any given house to foster a young child and train them to be a Knight. All children starts their training as Pages when they are roughly four or five years old. This training lasts until they are twelve to fourteen years old. During this time they act as servants for the houses to teach them humility and the importance of what is far too often considered 'common labor'. Hobbies are also encouraged, such as singing, dancing, poetry, and games of skill. Once a Page reaches the proper age then the Page is tested in manners, respect, and willingness to work without complaint. Should the Page pass they are named a Squire and assigned to a Knight who will be responcible for their martial training, as well as ironing out any rough spots that still exist. A Page who is not selected to be a Squire before they reach fifteen years of age is given a small sum of monies and returned to their family with a letter of recommendation that should help them gain an apprenticeship.
A Squire typically serves their Master or Mistress until their twenty-first year. Then they are tested again, typically through a special tournament or mission assigned by the Knight training them. Those who pass the test are Knighted. Those who fail are granted the option of staying on and trying again next year, joining the ranks of the normal house guards, or leaving to find their own path with a small sum of money and a letter of recommendation. Until the Squire earns their Knighthood they may not wear a sword, although other weapons are allowed, nor may they wear any armor heavier than a chain shirt. They also may not display their own coat of arms. They do not have to display the coat of arms of the Knight they serve, but some do as a point of pride.
The actual Knighting cerimony varies according to circonstances and the desires of the Squire to be Knighted. The essential element is for the Squire to kneel and for the Knight who is performing the cerimony to recite the Oath of Irespan. Then the Knight strikes the Squire. This can be any kind of blow, from a gentle tap with the flat of a sword to a forceful strike that knocks the Squire prone. The blow is struck to cement the moment in the mind of the new Knight, and to show to the onlookers just how quickly the new Knight will recover. Now the new Knight receives their badge, as well as a sword (Usually masterwork and of whatever style the Squire prefers) and a full suit of armor, typically Chainmail. (Again, this is typically masterwork.) They are officially presented with a shield and a tabard that depict their chosen coat of arms. Some Squires choose to spend the evening before this event in prayer and contemplation, commonly fasting and dedicating themselves and their lives to a higher purpose. Others spend it making arraignments for their first official mission. And still others choose to throw a big party at their own expense.
The Knights of Irespan also hold a charter as reserve members of the town watch, giving them the right and ability to arrest criminals and dispense justice. They are commonly called upon for special events to serve as a mounted police force. It is also not unheard of for a Knight to be appointed to a position of power, or even become a noble in his own right through deeds. Those Knights are not required to show preference to their fellow Knights, but many often do, and hospitality is expected within reason.
I'm still working on the specifics of the Oath or Irespan. I'll put that up when I have something I like. By the way, I chose Irespan because I figured that it was an appropreate symbol of the city, since its' stones form much of the foundations for the older buildings.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies
Be bold and upright that Magnimar may love thee
Speak the truth always even if it lead to your death
Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong
That is your Oath and that (Blow) is so you'll remember it."
Hmm, simple and to the point. It could work. Kingdom of Heaven did a good job with this one.
"By the power of the City, the Bridge, and the Fortress
I give you the right to bare arms and the power to mete justice."
Another modified classic from the movie Excalibur.
"By the power invested in me through the Knights of Irespan I charge you with defending (Insert noble house here) and protecting the people of Magnimar. Uphold the law and protect the innocent. Serve with courage and humility. Be brave and merciful. Seek peace and kindness, but be ready for war. Let nothing but truth pass your lips. This is your Oath that you swear before all those assembled here. Will you keep this Oath for all the days of your life?"
Another thought.
Comments?
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Jereth,
I like the knights, I think you did a good job on their write up. It sounds like you have read through the magnimar section at the back of PF2, did you see the part of where the irespan was being quarried and an evil was released upon the city and barely defeated? The name of the knighthood certainly reminds me of this incident and I keep visualizing the knighthood being founded privately by a number of the more benevolent noble houses in the city to protect magnimar and its holdings from threats that the standard guard were unable to handle.
-Tarlane
I must have missed that one. Is it in one of the sidebars? Those are hard to read sometimes. Anyway, I like that idea. I ties in really well with the 'Defend the city' rout I was going for. Their badges are there to remind them what is at stake, and that threats can come from anywhere. Great idea. Thanks.
Edit; Ah, found it.
Perhaps the founder was a member of the Eyes of the Hawk who was made a noble in gratitude. The Paladin Sir Abram Keldonza?
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Here it is:
A History of Dread
In 4623 ar, Magnimar’s second lord-mayor, Varnagan Draston-Meir, ordered that stone for the newly planned city wall and rising Arvensoar be quarried directly from the Irespan. While the decision unnerved many—especially laborers faced with mining 300-some feet above the ground—work soon commenced in earnest. Within days of setting to work, quarrymen proved the long-held rumor that the Giant’s Bridge was a hollow structure, revealing partially collapsed hallways at the span’s end. The discovery, however, did little to stall the bridge’s demolition.
Less than a week into the project, events occurred that ended any current or future intrusion upon the megalithic monument. Toiling with pick and hammer, workers revealed a vast, darkened chamber within the bridge. Mere moments after the discovery was made, a cacophony of shuddersome skittering heralded an out pouring of hundreds of ravening spider-legged things. Scrambling forth, the man-sized spidery monstrosities invaded the community.
Hundreds of Magnimar’s citizens were killed, maimed, and taken, as the ravenous things preyed upon them. Only the heroics of the twin wizards Cailyn and Romre Vanderale and an adventuring company known as the Eyes of the Hawk saved the town, rallying the local militia, driving the flame-fearing spider horrors back intothe bridge, and collapsing the gap to the chambers within.
Ever since, all tampering with the Giant’s Bridge or building within 50 feet of it has been forbidden by law. Still, historians and daring youths frequently report strange vibrations upon the Irespan and low, scraping sounds emanating from within.
-Tarlane
Ah, thanks.
I've changed a couple of things about the character (age) and have added an out line for his back story. I've been busy getting things ready for an important interview I have coming up next week so I haven't had much time to right down in a more story like form my ideas for this character.
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Jinn,
Great, thanks for adding the update. I was actually logging in to post and see if you had any thoughts of why your character would be in sandpoint and at the festival, since i hadn't heard much from you yet, but that looks great and gives me enough that I can tie you in as well during my introductory pose in the morning.
For the girlfriend, I don't mind at all that you include some information on ways that will help your character be tied into the group and I can see some that it can tie your character with some NPCs(most likely in a more antagonistic fashion).
Thanks for the info and I look forward to reading the full thing when you put it up.
-Tarlane
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Ok guys,
I tossed up a very wordy opening post to try and give some history for the basics about Sandpoint that would probably be generally known. If your character is a native to Sandpoint and you have access to it, I don't have a problem with you reading through the Sandpoint article in the PF1, just start with the descriptions of the buildings(as in skip Sandpoint's History, and 'The late unpleasantness' as there are quite a few spoilers there).
The buildings descriptions themselves have a few very minor spoilers in them(who is kind of trustworthy and who isn't) but I don't think any of them have anything to do with the AP and you would probably learn that from living in town your life anyway. Just do your best to ignore the class listing they give for NPCs.
Here is a link to the PbP.
And here is a link to the discussion page for it.
If any of you have any questions, feel free to toss them there, here or shoot me an email. And if you don't have access to the Sandpoint article I can help give you info from that as well.
For now, feel free to position your characters and introduce them a bit, it is a good chance for everyone to get a feel for each other in the relaxed setting of the festival.
-Tarlane
I'll be generating gold for starter gear in a few and be posting once I'm outfitted.
Although I really need to wait for those 'Hero' types to show up and look helpful first :)