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Notes
- OOTS 216
- Reduces the cheese.
- Consistent with the whip's rules.
Tweak
Chain, Spiked
A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.
The spiked chain is treated as a melee weapon, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.
AoO Rules:
- Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action.
- Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
What does this mean?
Spiked Chain is only as "cheesey" as the DM allows the rules to be broken.
If you charge someone with reach, they can only get one attack of opportunity against you for it. This is exactly the same as any other reach weapon.
The only difference is that the Spiked Chain wielder doesn't have to move 5' back to get full effectiveness out of his reach weapon.
The Spiked Chain already has lower damage (2d4 20/x2 on an Exotic weapon). It gets a +2 to disarm and can be used for tripping.
In contrast, the Guisarme and Ranseur (10' reach, either trip or disarm bonus), have 2d4 20/x3 damage. And cost 1 feat less.
Take Attacks of Opportunity away from the Spiked Chain and what's to stop the Fighter from simply picking up the Guisarme as his new trip weapon and continue moving backwards and tripping while keeping away? Neither the Spiked Chain nor the Guisarme user are letting anyone get close anyways... right?
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The "cheese" involved with the Spiked Chain is not the Attacks of Opportunity. It's just that it just hedges out the other reach weapons when it comes to being the Trip Monkey build.
Every other aspect of the Trip Build is what makes it broken.
Pathfinder has already increased the average defensive check vs being Tripped. They took away the cheesey "extra attack" portion of Improved Trip and lowered the bonus. They lowered the bonus for being a Large and larger creature when making trip attempts, and unified it into something that is based on skill (BAB + modifiers) instead of a fairly low fixed stat (Str + possible modifiers).
I would like to actually see someone try and build a "broken" build using the Spiked Chain in a playtest and actually try out the Pathfinder rules before kneejerk responses to 3.5e rules that don't even apply anymore.
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Actually, I'd like to see a feat that allows reach weapon users to use their weapon within close range, just like the Spiked Chain.
This means the Spiked Chain inherently gives you close quarters weapon fighting, but it requires skill to use (Exotic Weapon Proficiency). While the other reach weapons don't normally have this function, but you can train yourself in using the haft/butt as a close quarters weapon for close range combat.
The only functional difference between the fighters that choose these feats is that the Spiked Chain gives up crit damage for getting a bonus to disarm AND trip, as opposed to only one.
In my own playtesting of using the Spiked Chain, I have never run into the situation where I've had more than one AoO per person in a round, and I could count on one hand how many times someone has come within my close range reach to take advantage of my chain.
And that's from over 8 levels of play (7th to nearly 16th now).
*Edit* And in case you question my testbed (only large creatures, etc), I'm playing this character as the *only* frontline fighter in a War of the Burning Sky campaign (E.N.Publishing adventure arc). Fought nearly every creature type under the sun (humanoid, quadraped, large-huge, small, strong, weak) in nearly every environment (outdoors, indoors, space too small for my Enlarge to fit, within an antimagic field, etc).
I would have done just as well had I used the Guisarme with the exception of possibly a couple rounds in one fight where I would have needed to back off a bit more and might not have had the room (a 30x30' room we stupidly put ourselves in, so it was our own fault anyways).
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Take Attacks of Opportunity away from the Spiked Chain and what's to stop the Fighter from simply picking up the Guisarme as his new trip weapon and continue moving backwards and tripping while keeping away? Neither the Spiked Chain nor the Guisarme user are letting anyone get close anyways... right?
Besides most people with regular reach weapons do something to threaten the area close to them with something like armor spikes, or find a way to be able to threaten either reach or adjacent like Short Haft.
A person spending 3-4 feats on a weapon to be able to do more tactically is the same as the person spending those feats to increase the damage potential on a different weapon.Monkey Grip on a large Ranseur.
Oversized TWF to wield 2 dwarven waraxes.
Power Attack, weapon focus, Weapon Specialization on a Greatsword.
(2d4+4 damage and a trip at reach) vs. (2d6+4 and a disarm at reach) vs. (1d10+3 + 1d10+3 with weapon feats on both weapons) vs. (2d6+ whatever ridiculous numbers Weapon Spec and power attack produce)
I honestly don't see much difference between the different options, are we to nerf them all?
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I think the "level appropriateness" concept has been beaten to death in many threads. I'm asking you not to use this thread for another discussion on that topic.
You are however asking if a change to the spiked chain mechanic is needed, and if so if your fix is right.
Level appropriateness enters into that equation. Also the differing styles of melee enter into it like TWF, 2-Handed weapons, and plain reach. If you only want posters to post in agreement with your assessment that AoOs for spiked chains are broken then you should outline that so we don't waste our time outlining why it isn't a problem.3 posters of 3 are posting that AoOs for Spiked Chains aren't a problem.
'Nuff said.
No change required due to Alpha 3 rules.
- no free trip with improved trip feat
- higher difficulty to cause a trip
- no AoO when cover bonuses apply
The plethora of spiked chain fighters have been virtually eliminated and now the many weaponsmiths across the lands can rejoice as they can now make a variety of other weapons to sell!
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You are however asking if a change to the spiked chain mechanic is needed, and if so if your fix is right.
I'm not asking if it's needed. I'm suggesting a way to deal with the Enlarge person (or equivalent effect) + Combat Reflexes combo which I think is a cheesy tactic and leads to an inordinate number of fighters using it to the exception of other tactics.
I think one of the earlier posters hit it on the head, and it bears repeating.
You can only provoke for movement once in a round! Run circles around the guy if you want, he only gets one shot at you!
Beleivable? Fairly, except for the circle running example. Fair? Yes, it works evenly for monsters and PCs, it might even be weighted towards PCs because it means monsters can't exploit super attack of opportunity builds either. (By the rules, I can give 1 level of fighter to a kraken and threaten 120' with a spiked chain. Completely idiotic and reprehensible, but totally legit.)
And once it's remembered, it kills the spiked chain argument, and allows us to bury the beaten corpse of the dead horse and move on.
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You are however asking if a change to the spiked chain mechanic is needed, and if so if your fix is right.I'm not asking if it's needed. I'm suggesting a way to deal with the Enlarge person (or equivalent effect) + Combat Reflexes combo which I think is a cheesy tactic and leads to an inordinate number of fighters using it to the exception of other tactics.
As I stated before....
TWF, 2-handed weapon, Plain reach weapon, they all amount to mostly the same thing. Toss in enlarge on a Greatsword wielding guy and his damage becomes Huge and he gains reach. Toss it on a Ransuer wielder and his reach is Huge and he can disarm like a nightmare not to mention he has X3 crit. Toss it on a TWFer and he is hitting more, harder and at reach.A glaive is 1d10X3 with reach. A guisarme can trip with reach. If you spend a feat for proficiency and lose the X3 crit you should gain something for using the chain.....in this case you gain the ability to threaten up to reach and a slight bonus tactically.
There is no cheese. I have a druid in my game that wildshapes, casts Evards menacing tentacles on himself and his huge croc companion and between the 2 of them they get 6 attacks unhasted and do around 100 damage per round unbuffed and for the entire combat. I have a wizard in my game with a DC22 glitterdust that he sculpts to hit all evil dudes while avoiding all good guys. He also can Abrupt Jaunt everytime someone tries to land a blow on him.
Once players get a bit powerful there is alot they can do. A fighter that hit 20' away tripping/disarming his opponent, and sacrificed damage output to do it, isn't a big deal.
It's hardly appropriate to start a flame war over what one of another of us considers to be "cheese". The OP has his opinions, he's voicing them in the proper place, and there has been a lot of knee-jerk responses to his post.
I have seen that the Spiked Chain is one of the most overused weapons in the game. It should be - it has more abilities than any other weapon by far. It is certainly the hands-down best choice of the Exotic Melee weapons, if you're looking to get one.
Reach AND the unique ability to still strike close
Bonus to Trip
Bonus to Disarm
Able to employ Weapon Finesse
Looking at easy-to-get PrC abilities
Able to use Flurry attack
No other weapon, exotic or not, boasts this number of special abilities. It breaks the mold on what is a "normal" range of abilities given by a weapon. From what I've witnessed in many years of LG play, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat should just be renamed Spiked Chain Proficiency - I don't think I've ever seen it taken for any other weapon.
I don't let this weapon threaten AoOs in my home games and I agree with the recommendation. If you don't agree, you only need to say so.
-Scott
I guess its different play styles, I've had a few spiked chain wielders that were not even remotely broken compared to the lance and falchion wielders.
Keen, "Whatever" Burst Falcion equals retarded damage almost all the time. Take power attack and leap attack. Barbarians just make this insane.
Lance on a mount (halflings and gnomes can cheese this up like crazy) with ride-by attack and it starts getting crazy too. And none of these require multiple ability issues. Get anything that adds to static damage, and its awesome. Throw on a crit burst effect, and it should be eyed suspiciously by the Geneva Convention.
The spiked chain build requires Dex and Int. Pathfinder changes might make it easier, but at least in 3.4, you needed int for Combat Expertise to get to Improved Trip. And you needed dex to get any mileage out of combat reflexes. At that point, it becomes worthwhile to take weapon finesse, but that might be due to the fact you have very little points left to put in STR and CON.
Maybe the problem with the Spiked Chain is not with AoO. Like Scotto show, the Spiked Chain is not well balanced compare to other weapons.
[...]
Reach AND the unique ability to still strike close
Bonus to Trip
Bonus to Disarm
Able to employ Weapon Finesse
Looking at easy-to-get PrC abilities
Able to use Flurry attack[...]
... and also it's a two-handed weapon, making Power Attack count double.
I think there should be an exotic weapon for attacking at reach and still strike close (an interesting niche). This being a big advantage, this exotic weapon should not include too much *other* advantages.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I think one of the earlier posters hit it on the head, and it bears repeating.
You can only provoke for movement once in a round! Run circles around the guy if you want, he only gets one shot at you!
Yeah you can only get one AoO for movement... but you get another if the poor sucker tries to stand up! Yes you cannot re-trip them, but straight damage and disarming (-4 to hit) are also good choices.
I like the idea of making the spiked chain not threaten the area's it can reach.
Yeah you can only get one AoO for movement... but you get another if the poor sucker tries to stand up! Yes you cannot re-trip them, but straight damage and disarming (-4 to hit) are also good choices.
I like the idea of making the spiked chain not threaten the area's it can reach.
Then what of the Guisarme? It's exactly the same thing except better damage and not able to attack adjacent foes.
Are you going to nerf Guisarme too? Any weapon that can be used as part of a trip (since you can just Enlarge and have reach with any weapon that way anyways).It's hardly appropriate to start a flame war over what one of another of us considers to be "cheese". The OP has his opinions, he's voicing them in the proper place, and there has been a lot of knee-jerk responses to his post.
I'm not sure if this is aimed towards me at all, but I'd like to respond to make sure people understand the reason for my post.
Locworks (who I agree with on many other issues) posted his idea of changing the Spiked Chain, implying he wanted discussion on this.
Part of the discussion is to examine the reasons for the change, and make sure that it's balanced and not unneeded.
By discussing the validity of the "cheese" in Pathfinder at all, we are legitimately and constructively being a part of this discussion. I just want to make sure that the OP is keeping in mind all the changed rules in Pathfinder, and ask him if he's even playtested the new rules to see if the Spiked Chain is still capable of pulling off the same cheese.
Reach AND the unique ability to still strike close
Bonus to Trip
Bonus to Disarm
Able to employ Weapon Finesse
Looking at easy-to-get PrC abilities
Able to use Flurry attackNo other weapon, exotic or not, boasts this number of special abilities.
Now this is a good topic to discuss. Is the damage reduction + feat cost a valid tradeoff for the extra functions it gets.
Let's put this up against other weapons. Let's assume we add the feat to be able to attack adjacent foes with a Reach weapon (since this is what I advocated in my original response).
Normal Reach Weapons
- Attack adjacent foes with a feat, some kind of close quarters feat
- Damage: 2d4 crit 20/x3, 2:1 ratio on Power Attack
- Choose one bonus: Used for Tripping OR +2 to Disarm
Spiked Chain
- Attack adjacent foes, exotic weapon proficiency feat
- Damage: 2d4 crit 20/x2, 2:1 ratio on Power Attack
- Both Trip weapon AND +2 Disarm
- Weapon Finesse
I don't understand what you mean by "Looking at easy-to-get PrC abilities". Not a single PrC in core gives anything in particular that would favor the Spiked Chain over the others. I can't think of a PrC outside of Core that isn't comparable to the rest with regards to making one weapon better than another (Weapon Master vs Exotic Weapon Master? Not sure what you mean). If you can explain this more maybe I can see why you think it's more powerful than I think it is.
Monks can't use the Spiked Chain as part of their Flurry in either Core or Pathfinder rules. I haven't heard of anything outside of core that allows it either, but I'm not a savant and don't own every book, so maybe you could enlighten me. This is perhaps another case of "broken PrC makes Spiked Chain too good" instead of the Spiked Chain being the actual culprit.
Assuming those last two are not problems with the core rules and the Spiked Chain itself, what we have to decide is if gaining added trip or disarm usage AND weapon finesse-ness worth the lowered damage on a crit.
Maybe... the normal builds that try and take advantage of the Spiked Chain normally require pumped up Strength, so weapon finesses isn't even really that largely used. Give up crits and you get a rarely used function, and +2 disarm?
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In the end, I think adding a feat that gave all reach weapons the chance to attack adjacent foes just like a Spiked Chain would make the Spiked Chain no longer "the only smart choice".
The Cheese is already gone from the Trip changes in Pathfinder. All we need to do is make the other reach weapons as useful as the Spiked Chain so it's no longer the clearly better choice.
Hell, my currently played Fighter would give up the Spiked Chain for x3 crits if he could use a Guisarme against adjacent foes.
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In the end, I think adding a feat that gave all reach weapons the chance to attack adjacent foes just like a Spiked Chain would make the Spiked Chain no longer "the only smart choice".
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This is a good point. And it seems to offer more balance compare to other weapons...
... but to get more balance, shouldn't we just try to "tweak down" the Spiked Chain instead of "tweaking up" the system?
EDIT: I just had an idea (maybe a *bad* idea)
What if the Spiked Chain was threatning only adjacent square, but works more like the whip when using with reach? Unlike "pole" weapons (guisarme...) to attack at 10ft you must "throw" the Spiked Chain, thus provoking AoO...
Normal use in adjacent square, attack at 10ft with AoO.
there IS a feat which allows reach weapons to function at close quarters: Short Haft (PHB2)
there is also a feat (Sudden Lunge?) which lets non-reach weapons function at 10'. (not for AoOs though)
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there IS a feat which allows reach weapons to function at close quarters: Short Haft (PHB2)
there is also a feat (Sudden Lunge?) which lets non-reach weapons function at 10'. (not for AoOs though)
PHB2 is not SRD. While we can easily make a feat that does the same thing it would need to be tweaked a tiny bit to avoid plagiarism. I think it is great to point out where feats may already exist, though, so we can adjust them for OGL games.
And I agree with the majority. What is wrong with a trip monkey? My level 14 cleric is casting 14d6 fire spells left and right (fire god), with an occasional maximized one for good measure. I just don;t see a trip monkey doing 40+ damage per round on average. Might be possible, but so what? That just means he can do as much damage as everyone else.
I have never ever seen one in use.However its one of the few if not only exotic weapons worth the feat.
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the thing with spiked chains are they can do a lot that utilizes existing feats, improved trip, improved disarm, combat reflexes can all be used with the spiked chain to maximum effect.
I don't think the spiked chain is broken, its nice to give fighters something special to use. what I would prefer to see is more weapon specific feats that concentrate of the weapon groups. specifically Spears.
Spears are the most common weapon of history, more than the sword yet its use is very limited under the SRD.
The best way to handle this would likely be a single feat that focuses on a weapon group and leads into a number of additional feats that expands on existing feats to use with your weapon of choice.
for example taking a feat that specializes you in spears could provide you with the ability to threaten at +5 ft. it could also allow you to take improved trip and apply it to spear attacks providing a +2 competence bonus. then you could take a spear fighter feat that allows you to negate the flanking condition on you against 1 square.
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I do believe that in order to be eligible for an AoO you have to threaten your opponent which requires for you to be armed with a weapon that does lethal damage, unarmed without something to cause lethal damage you don't threaten and therefore can't take advantage of AoO's. This I believe is why the whip mentioned by the OP does not threaten any squares. It generally can't cause lethal damage if I'm remembering correctly. The spiked chain however does cause lethal damage and does threaten all squares within it's reach. And as several other posters have pointed out there are many other weapons you can use with fewer feats to accomplish the same effect as the chainfighting trip monkey. Also they've pointed out several weapon/feat combinations that are even more "broken" but those aren't generally complained about.
All in all, I don't believe the spiked chain as it is currently in PF needs any nerfing. Also in the times that I've tried playing a trip monkey I've never come out to be any more powerful then my fellow party members and I don't believe our games would be generally termed as munchkinish in nature.