Playtested Pathfinder with my group. Here are some of the issues that have been raised.
Cleric’s Turn Undead/Channel Energy
Issue: Turn Undead as direct damage a VERY GOOD IDEA, but secondary healing (or damaging) side effect could be problematic. Makes the use of Mass Cure spell obsolete and effectively available at lower levels. Changes low and mid-level combat dynamic a lot (too much?). As an offensive weapon (evil cleric NPC), this may cause foreseeable troubles (encounter with evil cleric and acolytes was disastrous).
Suggested fix: Not too sure. Still debating if it is really an issue or something to get accustomed to. It is definitively something that does not fit my fancy, but that is my personal opinion. Turn/rebuke undead should stick to undead only.
Reasoning: More than ever, this will make the role of a cleric essential and irreplaceable (even by a bard, druid or other classes with healing powers). IMO, the game should be different yet not penalized if one or another class is chosen over another (or missing from the group).
This was raised after a test game that lasted 3 sessions in a game that included a Cleric, a barbarian and a Rogue (all 6th level).
Definately some good comments there. They sparked me to write a whole new system which I hope the developers may consider.
Channel Energy New System Proposal
I do agree that allowing access to this kind of healing makes the cleric more needed/essential, but I think its still better than allotting "healing surges" to every character as per 4e. If the party doesn't want a cleric then they will just have to stock up on healing potions or have someone that can use a cure wounds wand via divine ability or UMD.
I don't feel it's a problem per say, but more of a tactical switch for the Cleric. I played one for years and spent most of my good spell slots converting to healing. Now the Cleric can save those spell slots for something other than healing. I'm looking forward to being able to cast a wider variety of spells more often and still provide the party with healing.
I played one for years and spent most of my good spell slots converting to healing. Now the Cleric can save those spell slots for something other than healing. I'm looking forward to being able to cast a wider variety of spells more often and still provide the party with healing.
Actually, I am more concerned about the reverse effect from clerics channeling negative energy.
A 11th level cleric wold deal 7d6 damage to every living being within 30ft, Will save for 1/2 damage. This can be used 3 times (or more if the cleric has at least 13 CHA), and the Cleric still hasn't cast a single spell.
I don't feel it's a problem per say, but more of a tactical switch for the Cleric.
True. And to be fair to the designers, this gives the Evil cleric NPC a bite he never had without having to be high level enough to have access to Slay Living and all these other nasty spells.
I'm just concerned about this being too big of a tactical switch...
There are two solutions I could think of.
I can forseey problems with this type of cleric in the hands of a bad DM.
I think the cleric healing, turning undead is a really cool idea and seems balanced if you take out spontaneous casting. I also don't mind eliminating mass heal spells as this serves a better function. I like Kor's idea, but its too much more math than is really needed for balance situation.
I think the solution is a bit more simple and there are a couple routes you could go.
1. Just limit the heal/damage. If it is a postive energy channel, a cleric can only heal half of the damage rolled. If it is a negative energy chanel, a cleric can only deal half of the damage rolled.
That puts it online with weaker mass spells about that level.
You could even toy with a feat that allows a cleric to spend a turn to counter another cleric's channel.
2. Another solution is to keep the positive energy burst as is and figure out who exactly a bad cleric would target. All good characters isn't fair, as a positive channel only works against undead. A better solution may be targeting characters who are religious based.. paladins and clerics.
Actually, I am more concerned about the reverse effect from clerics channeling negative energy.
A 11th level cleric wold deal 7d6 damage to every living being within 30ft, Will save for 1/2 damage. This can be used 3 times (or more if the cleric has at least 13 CHA), and the Cleric still hasn't cast a single spell.
I think this is balanced in a few ways.
1. The ablility to channel Negative energy at low levels is fairly weak when attempting to control undead. More often than not you end up not controlling them AND healing them which is VERY bad for the party.
2. I don't think the example of Dmg above is any worse than a wizard with a bonded object casting fireball or constructing a staff of fireballs. Either way the dmg is comparable and the wizard hasn't used up spell slots.
3. That party with a cleric using all his charges to dmg others is going to really suffer when they run into Undead.
4. Clerics that channel negative energy can't heal their party without preparing healing spells in place of other useful spells. And in addition a cleric that uses bursts of negative energy is likely to hurt his allies unless they take selective channeling and even then the feat's usefulness is limited to the Clerics Cha.
There are two solutions I could think of.
I can forseey problems with this type of cleric in the hands of a bad DM.I think the cleric healing, turning undead is a really cool idea and seems balanced if you take out spontaneous casting. I also don't mind eliminating mass heal spells as this serves a better function. I like Kor's idea, but its too much more math than is really needed for balance situation.
I think the solution is a bit more simple and there are a couple routes you could go.
1. Just limit the heal/damage. If it is a postive energy channel, a cleric can only heal half of the damage rolled. If it is a negative energy chanel, a cleric can only deal half of the damage rolled.
That puts it online with weaker mass spells about that level.
You could even toy with a feat that allows a cleric to spend a turn to counter another cleric's channel.
2. Another solution is to keep the positive energy burst as is and figure out who exactly a bad cleric would target. All good characters isn't fair, as a positive channel only works against undead. A better solution may be targeting characters who are religious based.. paladins and clerics.
I like the idea of cancelling out a clerics channeling with one of your own. Good thinking!
I'm not a big fan of limiting the Dmg/healing in that way as I think higher lvl parties would suffer when facing powerful enemies.
I think targeting only religious characters is kinda silly. Negative energy affects all living creatures. That's a game wide mechanic. To change it in this ne instance would cause inconsitencies game wide that would confuse people and power gamers would try to exploit.
I'm surprised to see this actually, IMO, energy channeling was one of the best things that Paizo did to the game.
While the cleric is indeed, not casting a spell, is *is* expending one of the cleric's resources, namely; his Channelings for the day. It's not as if he's doing it at will or anything.
A cleric of 11th level can probably cast about 3 5th level spells a day, slightly less than the number of times your example cleric could channel. if these are say... Flame strikes, the spell does more damage, with likely a much higher save DC. A sorcerer is probably casting 7 fireballs a day by that level, and spells can be Spell Focused, Metamagiced, etc, where channeling really cant be improved too much (save for a couple of feats which improve it, but not drastically so).
I guess my main point here is that channeling is by far, not the most effective action a character (evil or good) can take it combat.
About cure light being obselete: you're right, but I argue it was already obselete. I never saw anybody use this spell in regular combat (the one exception being a session where PCs were supporting the rank and file army, so a mass cure light healed up the level-1 warriors pretty good). Cure Light Mass just wasnt useful, it's still not useful, but that's a problem with a rather underpowered spell, not with energy channeling.
I also disagree that clerics are more essential to the party than before. If nothing else, Pally's can heal a bit better now, so their role as healer is augmented. For the most part, the Paladin is only healing (with a Channeling) 1 or 2 d6 less than a cleric of equal level would, depending on if you're at an even or an odd level. And there's a good chance that the paladin can channel more times per day than the cleric can. Plus, they have their lay-on-hands ability too, for extra healing! Bards and Druids are just as 'healy' as they ever were, and didn't lose anything in that department.
Another solution, which I don't forsee anyone using at this stage in design, is to go the other direction entirely. Skip to the end if you don't want to see my train of though, and just want the basic idea.
The main reason this mechanic has been designed/adopted in any of its forms is to make the crunch of the action correspond mechanically with the fluff of the action.
The fluff states that its a burst of positive/negative energy. But there are plenty of other positive/negative energy abilities, that all do the same thing: heal/harm the living/undead. Why was turn undead the "red headed stepchild" of all the other well established positive/negative energy fluff?
So we make a mechanic that changes turn undead to a "true" positive/negative energy effect. Now we deal with the ripples: specifically, due to Undead HP, the positive effect must meet a certain level of power to be effective, but the spillover positive effect of healing is very strong, and the equivalent power of negative energy damage is also equally strong.
To avoid this, we can instead of changing the crunch dramatically, we could change the fluff. What if turn undead is not positive/negative energy at all? What if it is divine power? An actual blast of divine will, given to you by your deity, for the purpose of accomplishing his/her/its wishes on the mortal realm? You can use a damage mechanic similar to the current, but it ONLY affects undead. The "evil" version heals/commands them. The mechanic can be built specifically with undead in mind, not needing any concessions to the power's effects upon everything else because it can't affect anything else.
Just a thought, but like I said, probably far too late game for it to be of any use.
I'll also add to the consumption of cleric resources by mentioning this: one of the biggest overpowering aspects of clerics is their ability to channel into the various cleric feats that boost combat ability. Having him use up channel attempts to heal the party bites into this ability, and somewhat reduces its effectiveness while similarly increasing the versatility of the cleric.