Let's look at the Two-Weapon fighting chain. Suppose I'm wielding two shortswords, and my normal attack bonus is +20.
Full attack without two-weapon fighting, I get +20/+15/+10/+5.
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF), I get +16/+14/+11/+6/+1.
Full attack with TWF and Improved TWF, I get +16/+14/+11/+9/+6/+1.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, I get +16/+14/+11/+9/+6/+4/+1.
So the additional feats are giving me less and less benefit. I would prefer to see something like this:
Full attack without two-weapon fighting, I get +20/+15/+10/+5.
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF), I get +17/+12/+12/+7/+2.
Full attack with TWF and Improved TWF, I get +18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, I get +19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, and Super TWF, I get +20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0.
Or something along these lines, where those latter feats in the chain are giving some significant benefit to the attacks with the higher attack bonus.
Thoughts?
Another example is Great Cleave. The 3E and 3.5E D&D version of Great Cleave is weaker than Cleave, because it is less often that you will have additional opportunities to use it over Cleave. For that reason, I would be inclined to just combine the two feats into a single Cleave feat along these lines:
"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round per 5 BAB rounding up (1/round at BAB 0-5, 2/round at BAB 6-10, 3/round at BAB 11-15, and 4/round at BAB 16-20)."
I agree with you completely. I have always thought TWF feats get progressively worse. Personally, I do not see any reason why Two-Weapon Fighting shouldn't allow you as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows with your off-hand. It is already a sub-optimal character building choice. Mechanically similar to wielding a two-handed weapon and yet it requires a gaggle of feats just to be passable... pretty lame if you ask me.
Let's look at the Two-Weapon fighting chain. Suppose I'm wielding two shortswords, and my normal attack bonus is +20.Full attack without two-weapon fighting, I get +20/+15/+10/+5.
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF), I get +16/+14/+11/+6/+1.
Full attack with TWF and Improved TWF, I get +16/+14/+11/+9/+6/+1.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, I get +16/+14/+11/+9/+6/+4/+1.
First, a shortsword is a light weapon. Two-Weapon Fighting feat and the weapon in your off-hand is light gives a penalty of –2 main-hand –2 off-hand.
So…
Full attack without Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/+18
Full attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/+18/+13
Full attack with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/+18/+13/+8
This is of course assuming the intent, though it is never spelled out, is for a character’s attacks with his off-hand to begin at his total base attack bonus. This would make sense, as this is how a monk’s flurry of blows is calculated.
A rules lawyer could argue that the PHB makes no claim that the extra attack for two-weapon fighting is at the character’s total BAB, as it does not say so on pg.160.
That would suck.
So…
Full attack without Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/-2
Full attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/-2/-7
Full attack with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/-2/-7/-12
You would definitely need some serious magic to hit with your 7th attack. :(
My bad. I mis-read the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Let me correct my values for using two shortswords then:
Full attack without two-weapon fighting, I get +20/+15/+10/+5.
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF), I get +18/+18/+13/+8/+3.
Full attack with TWF and Improved TWF, I get +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, I get +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3.
So the additional feats are giving me less and less benefit. I would prefer to see something like this:
Full attack without two-weapon fighting, I get +20/+15/+10/+5.
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF), I get +17/+17/+12/+7/+2.
Full attack with TWF and Improved TWF, I get +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, I get +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4.
Full attack with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF, and Super TWF, I get +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5.
Another feat with this problem is Medium Armor Proficiency. It provides +1 AC and a movement penalty with the armors in the PHB. It only really provides more significant benefit if you can use it with say Mithril Plate. This is why I would combine Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency.
I would have no problem with…
Full attack without Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5
Full attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, +18/+13/+8/+3/+18
Full attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, +19/+14/+9/+4/+19/+14
Full attack with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10
Full attack with Epic Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5
Full attack with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10
Full attack with Epic Two-Weapon Fighting, +20/+15/+10/+5/+20/+15/+10/+5
The benefit of Epic Two-Weapon Fighting (an epic feat!) is an additional attack at +5? Not worth it.
Other than that, the first three would be fine - exact numbers can be tweaked, just the additional feats in the chain should give some significant benefit.
I just used 'epic' as that is the last feat in the chain (SRD).
Super Two-Weapon Fighting is also an O.K designation.
While a slow removal of the penalties is fine by me, my previous post may well become house ruled, I have never heard a complaint about TWF except that it may be too powerful.
This is usually argued by the two-handed weapon fighter being out damaged by a rogue. :)
The benefit of Epic Two-Weapon Fighting (an epic feat!) is an additional attack at +5? Not worth it.
Yeah, the benefit of that epic feat is you may make as many attacks with your off hand as your main hand. But what else are you gonna take if you have been adventuring two-fisted for 20+ levels?
And I think the epic handbook was lacking....something.