I would like you to consider that the picture of the plague(with multiple dead bodies being carted off) may be a bit over the top for inclusion in the hardcover.
I have no problem with the picture personally, but in same way I would not allow my 5-year old to play Grand Theft Auto, I would not want him to see this picture at that age. Some may argue just limit access. Well that works for a video game, but not for the primary book of a role-playing game which will eventually be used to teach DnD to my kids.
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I would certainly hope they'd be ditching all the reused artwork for the final release, since a few of them are faintly spoilery. I'm sure they will though, Paizo seem to be pretty good at avoiding reusing artwork except when they have to, and with this being a $50 Core Book and Paizo's production values, I imagine they'll be pulling out all the stops.
I really agree with your sentiment though, as much as I love the adult edge to the Pathfinder adventures and fluff books, the core book should really be suitable for as broad a demographic as possible to flick through without worrying what they'll encounter, including kids and those with delicate sensibilities :). Well, as much as that's possible with a game that's classically about killing monsters and taking their stuff :P.
I just looked back through the whole thing to find that pic, and I really couldn't see anything objectionable (it isn't even that great a pic - I was expecting something much more graphic).
I game with my two older boys (both teens), and I plan on adding in the 10 year old soon, and I wouldn't have a problem with any of it... they see much worse on TV. If they can't handle death, then perhaps a game where you are supposed to go out and kill stuff isn't right for them?
just sayin'...
I'd actually like something a little 'grittier' on the cover, but thats just me - I'm from NY.
I also don't allow my 10 year old to play GTA either - I don't even allow him in the room when his brother is playing (I despise the game myself).
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I don't really have a problem with it either (and yeah, I don't particularly like it as a picture, it's a little strange looking in places. It's ok, but nothing special). On the other hand, I can see why it might have a bit of a "squick" factor for some people, and at the end of the day the core rulebook should really be suitable for anyone interested in fantasy gaming to flick through without getting too turned off, including people intending to run games about friendly magical fairies spreading love and peace everywhere :P. So yeah, dynamic action scenes and scary monsters, cool. Excessive gore and death, not so much.
Just to reiterate, this isn't my personal preference for art (I like things a bit... edgy... for lack of a less ridiculous word, and I have a high threshold for the macabre, unpleasant and just plain weird), so if Paizo want to go for more mature art in the hardcover, then that's awesome. It just makes sense to me for them not to. YMMV.
Just to throw this out there - WotC's 4e has been accussed of "being aimed at children", not only because of the easier rules, but its kinder, gentler approach. There may be some merit to that (Hasbro IS, after all, a Toy Company first and foremost).
So we must ask ourselves - do we want all the people who think D&D has become too 'PC' in its flavor to find a new home here, or elsewhere?
I'm not leaning either way here - I just wanted everyone aware of the 'outside factors' going on right now.
And yeah, that pic is a little 'off' (can't quite put my finger on it), and there are two or three others that are of questionable... maturity... for lack of a better word.
I would avoid cartoonish art at all costs - a LOT will be riding on the intial release of the Beta - I can think of at least 30 people off the top of my head who are still undecided which system they wil be using by the end of this year. GREAT art (and most of it is) goes a long way in swaying some of those 'fence sitters', IMHO.
But yeah... that one pic is really not worth arguiing over.
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Oh God, cartoony artwork would put me right off, hell, large quantities of anime-style artwork like Laori Vaus would put me off, I like anime influences in my fantasy art, but I prefer them subtle rather than in my face.
No, I think if they go for the kind of artwork they've got on the AP covers, they can't go far wrong. The iconic bodyshots are consistently awesome and the scenes may be violent, but as a rule they shout action rather than gore or horror.
Contributor
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I would like you to consider that the picture of the plague(with multiple dead bodies being carted off) may be a bit over the top for inclusion in the hardcover.
Huh? What?
Are you talking about the campaign setting hardcover or the RPG Beta release? If you're talking about the latter, you posted this in the wrong place and have succeeded in confusing me. :D
If you're talking about the former, there'll be almost no reused art in the campaign setting hardcover, and what reused art there is will be only the human ethnicity headshots and the iconics.
My guess is the hardcover will have all new art, this is just to liven up the alpha/beta releases. No point in ordering new art for free PDFs that'll be outdated in a year
*Chuckles* Liven up indeed.
"Come in, Jason, will ya?"
"What'ts it, Jimmy?*"
"I wanted to ask you why you put all the dead people into the book"
"I thought it would liven things up."
Or so the old joke goes ;-)
*I bet James is called Jimmy all the time.
Just to throw this out there - WotC's 4e has been accussed of "being aimed at children", not only because of the easier rules, but its kinder, gentler approach. There may be some merit to that (Hasbro IS, after all, a Toy Company first and foremost).
Might? Anything that would give a two-year-old nightmares is edited.
Things like torture (a staple in fantasy) are put into a special book that is then tied shut firmly and only sold in a special, locked off section of FLGSs, after a potential buyer has braucht his pass, notarised certification of birth, and sworn declarations of no less than five people that he's old enough.*
And the mere suggestion that half-orcs tend to be the result of rape sends people into mass hysteria.
*Dramatised reenactment
So we must ask ourselves - do we want all the people who think D&D has become too 'PC' in its flavor to find a new home here, or elsewhere?
If anyone's in doubt about Paizo's ability to deliver proper grit, just hold Hook Mountain under their noses.
Or classic monsters revisited.
By the same token, I like grit, but we don't want the setting to become THE 'gritty setting'. Too much of even a good thing is bad.
Case in point - The cover of the 4e FRCG will feature a Shade using Shadow Magic whilst riding a Shadow Dragon over the city of Shade.
No joke.
Did we all just throw-up a little there?
I remember I used to think 'shadow' was cool, until the guys over at WotC had us tripping over it every three seconds. Even Artemis Entreri (Drizzt's arch-foe) is now a half-Shade.
Point - Grit in a setting is great, having it be ALL about the grit is is bad, IMHO. The current art is fine, and it would be great to see a mix of 'dark' and 'lively' art in the finished product.
My only request is that Paizo supply Wayne Reynolds with whatever he needs to sustain his demonic pact that allows him to create such beautiful art.
What I really like about him is, that he can both make these really over the top pulp-fantasy stuff and space-marine armor, when it is required (and which I absolutly don't like in my fantasy), but can also deploy his considerable skill and talent to create pictures of characters of a much more "modest" visiual design, which I really like.
It lloks good for both Eberron and for Pathfinder. ^^
My only request is that Paizo supply Wayne Reynolds with whatever he needs to sustain his demonic pact that allows him to create such beautiful art.
I had to admit that I am definitely not in the Wayne Reynolds camp. I think his art is uninspired (I know I'm going to pay heck for that one) and his proportions are off. i will admit that he has style, but it's not one that I like. All of his people he draws have the tiniest feet I have ever seen. They're all depicted wearing such an absurd amount of clothes, buckles, straps, pouches, gear and equipment that it must take armies of people to dress them, otherwise, it would take them 2 hours just to get dressed by themselves. And don't get me started on the weapons. No one could carry the monstrosities he draws. I know he has his fans, and I'm not here to offend or flame anyone who likes, him, I'm just saying, please don't use him for the final book (which I know will not happen since Paizo does have a love affair with him).
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My only request is that Paizo supply Wayne Reynolds with whatever he needs to sustain his demonic pact that allows him to create such beautiful art.I had to admit that I am definitely not in the Wayne Reynolds camp. I think his art is uninspired (I know I'm going to pay heck for that one) and his proportions are off. i will admit that he has style, but it's not one that I like. All of his people he draws have the tiniest feet I have ever seen. They're all depicted wearing such an absurd amount of clothes, buckles, straps, pouches, gear and equipment that it must take armies of people to dress them, otherwise, it would take them 2 hours just to get dressed by themselves. And don't get me started on the weapons. No one could carry the monstrosities he draws. I know he has his fans, and I'm not here to offend or flame anyone who likes, him, I'm just saying, please don't use him for the final book (which I know will not happen since Paizo does have a love affair with him).
All the pouches, buckles and straps are fairly "realistic" for professional adventurers who tend to carry around a lot of stuff, especially before they get bags of holding, handy haversacks and portable holes. You have to remember, fantasy adventurers aren't authentic medieval soldiers, they're much more akin to modern LRRP troops with fantasy trappings. I like WAR's art, but while I can see where the style might be not everybody's cup of tea, him depicting adventurers actually carrying everything on their character sheets is a stroke of pure genius.
All the pouches, buckles and straps are fairly "realistic" for professional adventurers who tend to carry around a lot of stuff, especially before they get bags of holding, handy haversacks and portable holes. You have to remember, fantasy adventurers aren't authentic medieval soldiers, they're much more akin to modern LRRP troops with fantasy trappings.
yeah, I get that, but I'm sorry, it looks ridiculous to me.
As for all the buckles, straps, pouches and it taking 2-hours to get into their outfit...
As someone who has several very involved Renaissance Festival outfits and fairly frequently models for fantasy artists and photographers, I can assure You that there's a ridiculous (and uncomfortable) number of buckles and straps that are required to secure my quiver, sword, pouches, boots, bracers, waterskins [ok so there's mead or rum in them] and even my circlet. There's also a lot of different pieces of jewelry such as brooches, chains, pins, clasps, buttons and more going on. In short, it's all the details and knick knacks in an outfit that make it shine and attract notice.
While it doesn't take me two hours to get ready, at least a good half hour or more is needed to don mail, secure the 9-buttons on each boot, tie the laces on my cuffs and throat of my shirt, tie on bracers with one hand and my teeth, throw on a leather surcoat, secure my cloak, strap on my sword-belt and quiver and ensure that everything is reasonably comfy and doesn't restrict my movement or breathing.
From that standpoint, I can find no fault with the level of detail and "stuff" that WAR gives his characters. I mean, I'm just carrying around all that stuff for relaxing in a safe, make-believe faire setting or for some photoshoots. If I expected to encounter actual monsters or had been encountering them for several levels, You better believe I'd carry my shield, add armor plates, wear a bandoleer of healing potions and carry a lot more (and sturdier) gear PLUS the magic items needed to make me strong enough to carry all of it! :)
Wayne Reynolds is a chameleon. He fits his art style to the demands of the client. I don't like the manga bondage spike and strap stuff at all. I like what he did with Valeros, but the newer iconics are just not realistic overall. I love his excaggeration when he paints goblins for MtG. Facevaulter is my favourite card art.
Now look at his work for Osprey, and see what he does when the mandated style is more realistic.
If Paizo hasn't already locked WAR in a basement room, then they don't know what they are doing.
I still can't believe WOTC didn't hire him to do the art for 4E. Talk about a bone-headed move.
Um. He did the covers. He also does a lot of the monster manual stuff and he is a prolific artist for the Magic the Gathering game. Paizo is the smaller client.
Wayne Reynolds is THE man. I would be ecstatic to see more and more of his artwork in the hardcover.