Let me start off by saying I love the fact that PF standardized polymorph and it variants into discrete spells rather than the ever so broken you can become anything option.
That said I think the PF Druid is a step back from the PHB2 Druid. And the PF druid has some other issues I like to get an understanding of.
Now I dont know how many would agree with me when I say Druid should have a class feature chosen at 1st level of either Shapeshifter focused or Spellcaster focused.
The Shapeshifter focus would lose animal companion and spellcasting while the spellcaster focus would lose wildshape.
The Shapeshifter would get acess to shape shifting at level 1 and would have far fewer restrictions about changing forms starting with something like shift as a full round action unlimited times per day progressing to change with a std action move action and finally swift action unlimited times per day (potentially would have a fixed number of forms that could be assumed i.e. 1 per 2 levels max of 10, can swap a previous choice at level up if only to make life easier for DM bookeeping).
The Caster would have a stronger animal companion and access to more domains and numbers of spells.
Honestly I don't know the perfect solution but i do know splitting shape shifting away from spell casting is probably a step in the right direction
I'm sure there are options around this (new classes, etc.), but I can't *possibly* see a class have an option between Full 9th level casting and none at all. It would be an utterly different class in all ways.
I'm sure there are options around this (new classes, etc.), but I can't *possibly* see a class have an option between Full 9th level casting and none at all. It would be an utterly different class in all ways.
Heh you see my Dilema there really is no easy alternative it really make a new base class or don't bother and well I dont see Paizo adding a wholey new base class just for shapeshifting, but they can have my firs born if they do hehehe
Heh you see my dilemma. There really is no easy alternative it really make a new base class or don't bother and well I don't see Paizo adding a whole new base class just for shape shifting, but they can have my first born if they do hehehe
If you want the other side, I wrote up a class for one of my current players who wanted to play a Druid without shape shifting, but more animal companions.
It is called "Animal Friend" and when I change the campaign to 3P rules, I will add a cleric domain to his list of spells (animal, plant, earth).
-- david
Papa.DRB
I would very much rather have the Pathfinder Druid gaining the PHBII shapeshift variant ability. I suspect they couldn't do it exactly due to the fact that PHBII is not OGL, so they can't borrow the mechanics, but the new Wildshape is very reminiscent of the Shapeshift variant as is, except that the druid waits longer and loses out on the infinite uses per day.
I would prefer that they expand the Wild Shape into a form as close to the Shapeshift variant as possible, though I'm not opposed to the keeping of the Natural Bond ability, either. I'm not sure what the happy medium would be, but I was a little disappointed to see that Wild Shape had gotten toned down, but wasn't quite as much fun for shift fanatics (like my wife...)
Of course, one could always leave the PHBII variant as an open option - lose Wild Shape and Natural Bond, gaine Shapeshift. I doubt that'd really cause Pathfinder to crash to the ground in flames.
I agree that giving an option between spellcasting and shapeshifting seems an extreme idea. That said, I played a shapeshifter druid for one live session and a single fight when the game went online, and I loved the versatility of being able to do it at will. I was low level, so I only had access to the first two forms, but the speed boost and fly speed were what I enjoyed the most--made my elf capable of being all over the battlefield...and almost got him killed, but that just added to the fun. He also benefitted from the spellcasting, as the shapeshifted forms were not terribly powerful in combat, and we didn't have another healer.
I'd suggest something more along the lines of offering a choice like this:
1. You can gain shapeshifting at will, possibly with less powerful forms available (not too up on the Monster Manual, so I'm not sure what to suggest). (I;d like it to start at first level).
2. You can gain an animal companion and access to a domain. That gives you something to contribute to combat in the companion, and adds a bit to your spellcasting.
I'm not sure how balanced that is--if anything, it probably favors the shapeshifter. Perhaps some other form of spellcasting related ability could be added--bonus spells or something. But it's a start of a suggestion, anyway.
Well instead of a massive and or option spells vs shifting how does this sound.
Trade Nature's Bond for wild shape at will unlimited times per day.
And on a side note what's the thinking behind the druid shape shifting maxing out at 12th level ? why not allow further progression with some Form of the Dragon and or Giant Form ?
Trying to stay within the rules for a change I figured Sorcerer might also be an option for a shifter but the d6 HD and lack of shifting before level 6th makes it less attractive , can another see a another way of getting shifting early and having it be the focus of a class rather than a nice extra?
I think they have done a good job of spelling out what can and can't be done with wild shape but I think that it seems too limiting the ammount of times you can use it. I think there is going to be a lot of "What is it Lassie? Has grampa fallen down the well?"
It does seem as though you progress to some pretty big creatures more quickly.
Trying to stay within the rules for a change I figured Sorcerer might also be an option for a shifter but the d6 HD and lack of shifting before level 6th makes it less attractive , can another see a another way of getting shifting early and having it be the focus of a class rather than a nice extra?
There are a variety of non-Core classes that cover that niche (like the PHB II druid variant or the Master of Many Forms prestige class). It's not necessary to cover every possible niche with Core classes, IMO.
Actually had an idea based on the last few posts using the PHB2 model as a base and the pathfinder discrete polymorph rules I can see a handful of druid variants which can be optional to the core class without requiring a base of their own.
Recap of basic PHB2 druid
base attack fast form at 1st Level
fly form at 5th
better attack at 8th
big plant at 12th
big elemental at 16th
Now insert the more refined Pathfinder Rules and you can have a pathfinder druid that can give up wildshape to get access to a specific set of shapeshifting from 1st level.
E.g.
Option 1 lose Nature's Bond for
Beast Shape I to IV , accessed at first level fixed number of forms (only 1 at first)(minus the fly/swim/burrow until maybe 3rd or 4th) and augmented by some basic stat buffs along the way to make the forms better than the bases but recognizing the druid wont get any plant or elemental forms.
Option 2 lose Nature's Bond for
Elemental Body I-IV, accessed at first level (but water'd down i.e. no imunities resitences etc to start with) and then augmented all the way to 20th instead of maxing out a 12th.
Option 3
well there's still Giant Form, Form of the Dragon and Plant Form to play with in similar manners.
Basically get shifting early have it limited to a low number of forms allow 1 form to swap during a levelup. And bump STR/DEX/CON above the stated amounts over 20 levels to make the forms better but limiting the wide vareity of forms.
Personally I think a DM would appreciate only needing to deal with a max of 5 forms instead every frickin critter in the book. And Players def appreciate the at will shifting preventing the above stated getting stuck in animal form lest you hit combat with no wild shapes left.
As I recall the PHB2 Shapeshift variant does not give up spellcasting, it gives up the animal companion and wild shape, and restricts the druid to a redefined set of forms, in turn for being able to shift at will. I also think this variant has come up in a couple of other places, possibly Unearthed Arcana as well?
I have posted my opinion of this in two seperate topics so far, one of which I started. I have played both shapeshifting characters (Master of Many Forms Prestige and Shapeshifter variant) and both were very fun.
If I had to pick one of the two, I would say go with the Shapeshifter Variant from 3.5 PHB2. It is accesible at 1st level and it removes a reasonable amount other abilities form the druid. Also of note, it says you CANNOT use the feat "Natural Spell" such as to cast while shapeshifted, nor can you speak.
Something similar to the PHB2 Variant would be great. All it would really have to do is follow the Animal Companion list and provide a new form (list) every 3-4 levels. If you can pick one of them to follow you around as a target, why not make it so you can instead be the target ... er Animal? This way it wouldn't even require a new list, just a small explaination, the addition of an elemental or two at higher levels would be good too. (See animal companion list below)
1st Level
* Badger
* Camel
* Dire rat
* Dog
* Riding dog
* Eagle
* Hawk
* Horse (light or heavy)
* Owl
* Pony
* Snake (Small or Medium viper)
* Wolf
* Porpoise (aquatic campaigns only)
* Medium shark (aquatic campaigns only)
* Squid (aquatic campaigns only)
4th Level or Higher
* Ape
* Bear, black
* Bison
* Boar
* Cheetah
* Crocodile
* Dire badger
* Dire bat
* Dire weasel
* Leopard
* Lizard, monitor
* Shark, Large
* Snake, constrictor
* Snake, Large viper
* Wolverine
7th Level or Higher
* Bear, brown
* Dire wolverine
* Crocodile, giant
* Deinonychus (dinosaur)
* Dire ape
* Dire boar
* Dire wolf
* Elasmosaurus1 (dinosaur)
* Lion
* Rhinoceros
* Snake, Huge viper
* Tiger
? * Elemental, Medium
10th Level or Higher
* Bear, polar
* Dire lion
* Megaraptor (dinosaur)
* Shark, Huge (aquatic campaigns only)
* Snake, giant constrictor (animal)
* Whale, orca (aquatic campaigns only)
? * Elemental, Large
13th Level or Higher
* Dire bear
* Elephant
* Octopus, giant (aquatic campaigns only)
16th Level or Higher
* Dire shark
* Dire tiger
* Squid, giant (aquatic campaigns only)
* Triceratops (dinosaur)
* Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
? * Elemental, Huge
- END OF LINE -
Just to muddy the waters a bit more -
The Warshaper PrC (Complete Warrior) provides a druid with multimorph at Warshaper 5, (flashmorph for sorcerers/wizards). This allows the druid to change forms every move action for the usual 1 hour per level. In addition earlier PrC feats allow the druid to manipulate the forms she's in, increasing the length of limbs or taking on a hybrid form. (Going by the illustration, but not specifically mentioned in the description.)
Having a gestalt Druid 15/Ranger 10/Warshaper 5 with Natural Spell I can tell you this is a very strong character. If I combined it with Fast Wild Shape or quicken (?) my 1 round spells it really becomes over-powered. (I haven't gone this route)
Though I try not to power game a few people in my group tend to be very laid back, and my impatience gets the better of me. In addition I don't usually use an Animal Companion. (My DM likes to kill them.)
The trade off is the loss of magic items not covered by a wilding clasp, but it's a small loss.
Since I'll be starting a 3.5 game myself I'm leaning to avoiding all PrCs for the time being.
No to derail my own thread but it just occured to me that if Druid wildshaping maxes out at 12th level effectively does it not open itself up to some good multi classing ? assuming you dont plan on being a primary caster. Basically you've got 8 levels of other classes to play with to make the shifted forms more powerful ?
Monk springs to mind as does Barbarian , rogue ...hell most other classes
No to derail my own thread but it just occured to me that if Druid wildshaping maxes out at 12th level effectively does it not open itself up to some good multi classing ? assuming you dont plan on being a primary caster. Basically you've got 8 levels of other classes to play with to make the shifted forms more powerful ?
Monk springs to mind as does Barbarian , rogue ...hell most other classes
You combine a 12th level Druid with most anything and you have a good mix. The spell selection is great. The split of polymorph/wild shape in Pathfinder is a good idea to reign it in a bit. Still, there are feats that duplicate some of the wizard/sorcerer specialties, like Draconic Wild Shape. The Bite of the ... spells from the Spell Compendium quickly turn you into a wrecking machine, but the duration is limited.
A druid/monk with flurry of blows while in the form of a werebear scares me. Or the ability to infiltrate and backstab as a druid/rogue. Yes, the combos are awesome.
I believe there is a reason that PrC's are strongly discouraged with the gestalt variant. You've pointed it out quite nicely.
Having a gestalt Druid 15/Ranger 10/Warshaper 5 with Natural Spell I can tell you this is a very strong character. If I combined it with Fast Wild Shape or quicken (?) my 1 round spells it really becomes over-powered. (I haven't gone this route)
I never knew they were discouraged. Our DM kinda opened the candy box and things grew from there. I'm prepping to run as a temp DM and I'm definitely gonna avoid that trap. And a few others that have cropped up.
No to derail my own thread but it just occured to me that if Druid wildshaping maxes out at 12th level effectively does it not open itself up to some good multi classing ? assuming you dont plan on being a primary caster. Basically you've got 8 levels of other classes to play with to make the shifted forms more powerful ?
Monk springs to mind as does Barbarian , rogue ...hell most other classes
A druid/monk with flurry of blows while in the form of a werebear scares me. Or the ability to infiltrate and backstab as a druid/rogue. Yes, the combos are awesome.
If you multiclass this Druid (Shapeshifer Variant) with a Barbarian you are still allowed to go into Rage while in your Shapeshifted forms. I'm not 100% on the wording anymore, but I seem to remember it saying... you lose all "spell-like" abilities. Rage is an Extraordinary ability, as is the +10' Movement. However you cannot Rage and Shapeshift in the same turn as both are swift actions. Trust me, not being able to do both in the same turn NEVER really hindered the character all that much.
--------------
So let's tell them what they've won...
(Human Barbarian 1 / Druid 1)
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12-13 (I forget, spells are unimportant with this build)
Cha 10
Predator Form (wolf)
* +4 STR
* 50' Movement (replaces 30' normal)
* + Natural Armor (lose bonus from normal armor worn when shifted)
* Bite Attack 1d6
Add the Barbarian level on..
* +10' Movement <Extraordinary ability>
* Rage (+4 STR & CON) <Extraordinary ability>
1st Level Feat Choices:
* Extra Rage (I believe this makes it 5-6 times a day)
* Extended Rage (Rage for 11 rounds)
End Result...
Raging Predator Form (2nd level character)
*for 11 rounds* (most combats are over in half that)
60' Movement
24 Str (+7)
18 Con (+4)
Bite Attack 1d6+10 (Bite attacks get x1.5 Str Bonus)
------------
I'm pretty sure the predator form provides more than I've listed above, I wanna say that there's a bonus to Dex, but I could be thinking of one of the "Bite of *" spells from the Spell Compendium. Alignment was good ole Chaotic Neutral for the curious. Spells were very unimportant with this build, you cannot cast them while shifted and if you really think you might want to cast higher than 2nd-3rd level spells just buy a wand of Cure Moderate/Serious/Critical etc. Healing, Stat Enhancers and maybe Barkskin spells are about the only ones I would've used. Healing potions being an alternate to wands for price reasons.
- END OF LINE -
The Bite of the ... spells from the Spell Compendium quickly turn you into a wrecking machine, but the duration is limited.
I requested to use these spells with my Kobold Druid and his Boar Mount via Share Spell ability and my DM basically growled at me and said NO. LMAO! A boar would become very scary with "Bite of the *" spells buffing him.
- END OF LINE -
The Bite of the ... spells from the Spell Compendium quickly turn you into a wrecking machine, but the duration is limited.
I requested to use these spells with my Kobold Druid and his Boar Mount via Share Spell ability and my DM basically growled at me and said NO. LMAO! A boar would become very scary with "Bite of the *" spells buffing him.
- END OF LINE -
Definitely. I didn't even think of this angle, since my animal companions get killed anytime I try to use them in combat.
Not sure if the Bite spells need to be used on a humanoid form, but if you can go half-animal why not half-humanoid via sharing? mulling this over........
Don't tempt me further. My DM will call your DM and we'll both get punished. lol.
Hey all, great topic, right up my alley.
I believe I have created a new type of Druid Class. Basically a Druid who casts spells intuitively like a Sorcerer (with the Sorc's limits on spell selection but with the benefits of casting whichever spell they know). I also added the Shapeshifter alternative class feature from PHB II (pg39).
Please check her out and give me your opinions. With my DM's approval I plan to run her in my first PBP any day now.
Oh, and also, while I do have years of D&D experience under my belt I am a little rusty from lack of recent practice and less familiarity with the new 3.5 rules and virtually none at all with Pathfinder. So if anyone wants to point out any errors and give constructive criticism I'm all Elf Ears.
Thanks,
K
Hey all, great topic, right up my alley.
I believe I have created a new type of Druid Class. Basically a Druid who casts spells intuitively like a Sorcerer (with the Sorc's limits on spell selection but with the benefits of casting whichever spell they know). I also added the Shapeshifter alternative class feature from PHB II (pg39).
Please check her out and give me your opinions. With my DM's approval I plan to run her in my first PBP any day now.
Oh, and also, while I do have years of D&D experience under my belt I am a little rusty from lack of recent practice and less familiarity with the new 3.5 rules and virtually none at all with Pathfinder. So if anyone wants to point out any errors and give constructive criticism I'm all Elf Ears.
Thanks,
K
Would you believe I'm playing that exact class as we speak :) druid spells with sorc progression and spells/day. I convinced my DM it would be ok since we have no cleric and I'm left to do all the healing which would be impossible with druid spells/day.
Also take the Spontaneous Regen Ability that combined with extra spells/day really helps keep a party moving , and one regen cast during combat is an easy way to stabilizes fallen PC or mitigate ongoing dmg temporarily.
The only downside I found was that with PHBII I was the party tank/dmg dealer for lv1-3 which kinda makes it hard to heal tank and fight at the same time but we're over that hump now and I'm no longer required to tank and can enjoy strike fade heal and its good fun.
Currently I charge attack into combat with the 50speed and get some brutal power attack dmg happening on key monsters. take a few hits high AC and mobility lets me avoid much of the pain. withdraw every few round in longer combat for individual healing or a Regen Lv2 , keep everyone ticking over just a bit longer, and the swift shift mean i can move shift cast take 1 rd of attack in normal form (wear armor) then shift back next rd back to the fight and have another 2 rds of +2HP for everyone clicking over. Doesn't sound like much but more often than not it keeps everyone just over the 1 hit HP kill range (barring crits)
Considering taking 2 lvs of warshaper for the extra attacks and +4STR and +4CON , would give my char a 26STR in pred form and 30STR in Ferro Pred , basically keeping me on par with fighter BAB's, should I could Bull strength but I try to avoid self buffing whereever possible as it slows me down too much if I cant do it before combat, a +2AC isnt worth the potential 14-20dmg hit I can do in the first rd
No way! That's crazy. Well, guess I don't get points for being the First to think that up ;-) But I guess good ideas are contagious (now i have a better idea how that guy who Almost beat Alexander Graham Bell to the punch must have felt. lol )
So you're character must be level 6 or so by now? Sounds like some greats ideas, was thinking about the Regen ability but at first glance it sounded kinda wimpy. I'll take another look though.
For sure take the Warshaper lvls, they make a shapeshifter kick ass (you can even extend your reach if memory serves)
I'll take the rest of your advice into account as man. Thanks
No way! That's crazy. Well, guess I don't get points for being the First to think that up ;-) But I guess good ideas are contagious (now i have a better idea how that guy who Almost beat Alexander Graham Bell to the punch must have felt. lol )
So you're character must be level 6 or so by now? Sounds like some greats ideas, was thinking about the Regen ability but at first glance it sounded kinda wimpy. I'll take another look though.
For sure take the Warshaper lvls, they make a shapeshifter kick ass (you can even extend your reach if memory serves)
I'll take the rest of your advice into account as man. Thanks
Regen starts off looking lame but it really depends on the size of the group your with.
Assuming your a party of 4 and assuming everyone takes at least some damage during any given fight regen 1 is better than cure light at low lvs
e.g.
Use 3 x Regen 1 gives everyone 9HP effectively 36HP of healing for 4 characters
vs 1d8+1 HP for 3 characters approx 15HP worth (one misses out and risk of rolling low d8's).
However if you get a fight where only 1 or 2 people take dmg then cure light works out better.
Basically you just calculate the most efficient healing method each combat.