Jump - an error or just misunderstood?

[Robert Brambley]

I was reading through the new Alpha - this may have been true in the previous releases - but this is the first time this caught my attention.

In the Acrobatics Skill - it lumps Jump into it (much to my chagrin). Under the Difficulty aspects it says to "Increase the DC for all acrobatic checks for all that apply"

Then "Move at normal speed or greater +5"

Am I reading this right? Is this a BONUS to jumping at full speed? or its an increase in difficulty to jump becuase one is moving at full speed or greater?

If it's the latter - is this a mistake? It doesn't make sense? Jump use to get bonuses on having higher than "normal" (30ft) movement - now the DC is higher?

And I no longer see a bonus for having faster movement...? Is that too an oversight? It doesn't make sense to me why faster movement should be optimal for jump - as opposed to adding difficulty.

Robert

[Jason Bulmahn]

Robert Brambley wrote:

I was reading through the new Alpha - this may have been true in the previous releases - but this is the first time this caught my attention.

In the Acrobatics Skill - it lumps Jump into it (much to my chagrin). Under the Difficulty aspects it says to "Increase the DC for all acrobatic checks for all that apply"

Then "Move at normal speed or greater +5"

Am I reading this right? Is this a BONUS to jumping at full speed? or its an increase in difficulty to jump becuase one is moving at full speed or greater?

If it's the latter - is this a mistake? It doesn't make sense? Jump use to get bonuses on having higher than "normal" (30ft) movement - now the DC is higher?

And I no longer see a bonus for having faster movement...? Is that too an oversight? It doesn't make sense to me why faster movement should be optimal for jump - as opposed to adding difficulty.

Robert

It is an oversight and now on the change list for the Beta.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Skjaldbakka]

I have some issues with Dex-based Jump. Strenght ought to be a factor in making a long or high Jump, and it isn't. In 3.5, an Annis Hag with a potion of Jump would have been able to clear a good distance (enough to survive an encounter and escape as intended, to harass the party later in the adventure). with dex-based Jump, it couldn't make the jump into the trees over the web and so it got ganked.

I don't have any good solutions to that though. Seperating Jump into its own skill doesn't make sense, because Jump defintily falls under Acrobatics. Having different Acrobatics skills use different stats is an incredibly awkward mechanic. Perhaps giving free distance for a high strength? Awkward still, but you could put it into a chart at least.

[Todd Johnson]

How about balance and tumble being their own skill under acrobatics, and jump and climb being their own (STR based) skill. It makes more sense. The height and distance you jump has NOTHING to do with how agile you are, it has everything to do with how strong you are.

[Saurstalk]

I have to say that I was a bit disappointed not to see Athletics appear (and Jump get pulled from Acrobatics). Like you, I recognize that jump is more of a strength-based action than it is dexterity.

That said, I also expected to see Concentration and Spellcraft break once more.

[tussock]

Todd Johnson wrote:

How about balance and tumble being their own skill under acrobatics, and jump and climb being their own (STR based) skill. It makes more sense. The height and distance you jump has NOTHING to do with how agile you are, it has everything to do with how strong you are.

Olympic long jumpers are fast, and Olympic high jumpers are lithe and tall. Triple-jumpers are a little of both. I think those are well represented in DnD by high Dex and often mediocre Str.

Weightlifters and heavyweight boxers, or, for that matter, Olympic decathletes, (all well modeled with high Str) can't jump very well at all, compared to the ones that are really good at it. Yes, they can jump well compared to a couch potato, but that's more their moderately good Dex compared to the same.

[Freyr]

Jump is not only in length but also in height. This activity requires to be both strong and agile, just like swimming does with strength and constitution, that's why a choice must be made when deciding to apply the one or the other ability modifier, and I think strength is a good compromise.

So why not formalize an "Athletics" skill based on strength then ? Some of us already use it, bringing together climb, jump and swim.

[MScam]

A solution from L5R : change the stat associate with the skill, if it's more appropriate

Acrobatics + Dex for gymanstic action
Acrobatics + For for jump
...

and Acrobatics + Int to have an idea about the difficulty of the test

Fly + Dex to fly
Fly + For to fly with a very heavy charge

and so on

[DarkWhite]

I'm okay with Jump being lumped into Acrobatics, I feel that Jump and Tumble naturally belong together. However, I think Jump would be a STR based Acrobatics check, while Tumble would be a DEX based Acrobatics check.

This reminds me of the system used in Vampire the Masquerade. It uses a combined Ability + Skill system, where you take a handful of dice equal to your Ability score, and another handful of dice equal to your Skill rank, and roll them together. The trick is, picking which Ability to pair with which Skill depending on the action you're trying to accomplish.

Therefore, I see no problem with:
Jump check = Acrobatics ranks + STR mod;
Tumble check = Acrobatics ranks + DEX mod.

I'm pretty sure this is the way I'm going to run it in my games, it just makes sense.

[Pneumonica]

Acrobatics as a splat skill works out for me. Athletics, in general, are at least as much about agility and maneuverability as they are about physical power. I am concerned that STR is going to be even more of a dump stat for Rogues now - largely unneeded for anything but Climb. Anybody playing a Paka from Ravenloft has precisely no reason to have a Strength higher than 10.

My other major concern is that the Speed modifier is gone. It's been asked that Jason give an explanation - I'd still like to hear one. I simply don't understand why its gone.

[Robert Brambley]

Pneumonica wrote:

My other major concern is that the Speed modifier is gone. It's been asked that Jason give an explanation - I'd still like to hear one. I simply don't understand why its gone.

Well if you mean a modifier to jump based on a characters base movmennt (if different than 30), then Jason did respond at the top of this thread; he said it was an oversight and will be adjusted for the Beta.

However, I asked two seperate issues: one about the +5 DC for for full movement adversely affecting Jump attmepts (which doesn't make sense) and one about the absence of a modifier based on speed.

Which of those two (or both) was the oversight Jason indicated - I am not positive of.

Robert

[hida_jiremi]

Pneumonica wrote:

Acrobatics as a splat skill works out for me. Athletics, in general, are at least as much about agility and maneuverability as they are about physical power. I am concerned that STR is going to be even more of a dump stat for Rogues now - largely unneeded for anything but Climb. Anybody playing a Paka from Ravenloft has precisely no reason to have a Strength higher than 10.

Wait... you have people playing Paka in your game? You're allowing people to play Paka in your game? The ravenous, human-hating monsters? Those Paka? I think you might have bigger problems going on than "Strength is a dump stat for rogues." ;)

Jeremy Puckett

[DarkWhite]

DarkWhite wrote:

Therefore, I see no problem with:

Jump check = Acrobatics ranks + STR modifier;
Tumble check = Acrobatics ranks + DEX modifier.

I'm pretty sure this is the way I'm going to run it in my games, it just makes sense.

Actually, I see this cropping up in another thread regarding Concentration(CON) vs Spellcraft(INT)

I'm a little more okay with Concentration checks becoming Spellcraft checks, but an easy alternative could be:

Spellcraft check = Spellcraft Ranks + INT modifier;
Concentration check = Spellcraft Ranks + CON modifier;
(substitute Spellcraft for Psicraft if appropriate)

While most skills would have a fixed Ability modifier, I think some skills could use a different Ability modifier under specific circumstances.