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...since I see watchmen/city guards and adventuring paladins and fighters being the embodiment of the concept of "alert warriors". So I'm wondering why Perception is not a class skill for the fighter and paladin?
In fact, I wouldn't mind if *every* class had it as a class skill, since it *is* probably the most often used (and therefore, important) skill in the game.
Another thing: I like the fighter's 'Bravery' ability, but would it be possible to give them 'Fearless' at higher levels?
Director of Games
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I thought about this, but in the end, I do not really think that this should be a core competency for every class. It cheapens the classes that currently get it.
As for the fearless bit, that too was on my list of possibilities, but in the end, the bonus just worked out better thematically. Sometimes fighters run... unless they are Paladins.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
PS: Please do not start threads with my name in them. I read all the threads equally.
I've seen a lot of people arguing that fighters should get spot/listen/perception...
Personally, it does hurt the sneaky classes a bit more when everyone and their dog can have a good chance of spotting them. Especially with the way Pathfinder's skills are working (unless they've changed since Alpha 2... I'm still in the process of getting through it), it's not that hard to have a reasonably competant bonus to perception, and with a small amount of multiclassing, you can get a full bonus anyway. Just my two cents.
And with the changes to cross class skills, it is not as much of a hit to invest in perception.
Besides, every guard I have ever seen in fiction seems to be horrible and perception. Of course they tend to have terrible aim too.
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I thought about this, but in the end, I do not really think that this should be a core competency for every class. It cheapens the classes that currently get it.
As for the fearless bit, that too was on my list of possibilities, but in the end, the bonus just worked out better thematically. Sometimes fighters run... unless they are Paladins.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingPS: Please do not start threads with my name in them. I read all the threads equally.
Sorry about that... so there's no chance that fighters would get it? I mean, they *do* get less skill points than the classes than the "sneaky" classes, so I do not think they would invest in it more than some points (i.e. enough not to be surprised in ever combat).
Paladins and Fighters are more the pure fighters and less the eagle-eyes.
That having been said, cross-class only means +3 less than class with pathfinder, so it's not that bad. A fighter could blow one of his many feats for skill focus and get even. A paladin will probably have a decent wisdom, so he'll keep up at least a bit.
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I thought about this, but in the end, I do not really think that this should be a core competency for every class. It cheapens the classes that currently get it.
As for the fearless bit, that too was on my list of possibilities, but in the end, the bonus just worked out better thematically. Sometimes fighters run... unless they are Paladins.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingPS: Please do not start threads with my name in them. I read all the threads equally.
I think it's a fine balance between cheapening the skill for being spread too thin and cheapening the classes that do not have it. Considering the fighter and paladin's arena is largely combat, and they're usually at the front of any classic marching order, I think it's a little strange that they would be notably easy to surprise. Combine this with the Cleric's ameliorating wisdom bonus and you find fighters and paladins most akin to sorcerers and wizards for reaction time. That's a lot of future artwork with Valeros being jumped ;)
Jason, please reconsider this. Thanks!
Considering the fighter and paladin's arena is largely combat,
Which involves applying fatal objects to mortal subjects, not looking for things that want to involve you in future occasionas of fatal application.
Translation from weird to english: Spot leads to combat, but is not part of combat. Fighters and Paladins are all about the combat part. If they were both, they'd be rangers.
and they're usually at the front of any classic marching order
But not so broad-shouldered that the rogue can't look past him.
I think it's a little strange that they would be notably easy to surprise.
We're talking about a difference of 3 compared to a rogue, maybe a little bit more for a ranger with his slightly elevated wisdom.
It's easy enough to fix with a skill focus if you need the 3 points that bad. Fighters have feats to spare.
And considering that PF fighters are already a lot better off than 3.5 fighters (which Valeros is right now), I don't see this totally destroying fighters somehow. They get a lot more points into perception, which is one skill for them now, not 3 with listen, search, and spot.
No, No, please No. Fighters and Paladins do not need Perception as a class skill. The new skill system already makes being a sneaky character much harder than it was before.
Fighters and Paladins should get Perception as a class skill. With only 2+int skills, its not like they can max out all the skills at their disposal. I still dont get why they are deaf, dumb and blind to things. Sentries are fighters who just happened to use their skill points to Spot/listen/Perception, instead of crafting armor or animal handling or riding. It won't take away from the sneaky characters, it will just make fighters more versatile.
Just my .02
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The new skill system already makes being a sneaky character much harder than it was before.
But what about the new feat system? So many more feats for the character now. Rogues get certain feats as talents now.
Seems to me you should have a +9 in Sneak at level 1. :)
1 rank + 3 class + 3 skill focus + 2 sneaky
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I don't think that being sneaky is all that hard. Frankly in my group we have a common issue of the rogue that cannot find himself. Not literally obviously, but their ability to spot is far outweighed by their ability to pass unseen. Heck I made a character with a Hide bonus of +20, at first level, and it only gets more disgusting from there. After which they challenged me to make a character that could keep up with him. No luck so far.
Hmm that brings to mind an idea I've been beating around. I'll post where it is appropriate, when I have time.
graywulfe
how is it harder for sneaky characters? one roll instead of two really helps the sneaky character (you dont have to worry about bombing either your hide or move silently) and the small size bonus applies to all aspects of sneaking
look, once again it must be stated that a town guard is not a fighter, thats a warrior. its a dorky dude in a big helmet that is paid to look pretty and miss your super cool rogue when he sneaks past him. Fighters are supposed to be much cooler and better than the warrior. I feel so bad for your increased hit die sneakers (yes, all sneaky characters have more hitpoints now, so i could care less if they are spotted a little more often)
I could care less about Paladins getting Perception ( in my mind they are to introverted to be good spotters ) but Fighters should have it MORE THAN FRIGGIN BARBARIANS. The friggin barbarian should not have perception, they dont NEED it with so many hitpoints and the no flat footed thing. having perception denotes tactical awareness, spotting ambushes and being wary of changes in enviroment. a Fighter should have it because there is no such thing as a working "Knowledge: Tactics" having perception gives you the feeling of being tactically wise.
Barbarians have 4+ skill points rage points, acrobatics and perception- Fighters have Knowledge engineering and dungeoneering and a bonus feat... still not a fair trade. the only thing keeping the barbarian in check is that not everyone like the aesthetic, or cant ignore it.
really? acrobatics for Barbarians and not for Fighters and Rangers? we got Wulfgar balancing on an iced over telephone line while Drizzt is falling out of trees? My fighter cant jump?
I would sell both extra knowledge skills for EITHER perception or acrobatics (knowledge engineering is a joke, and a bad one. and having knowledge dungeoneering just lets the fighter know how f&*ked he is if he tries to go into a dungeon, woe to them if there is a five foot jump or minor trap)
sorry to sound bitter but giving Fighters Perception is NOT backward incompatible
oh yeah if you want to keep the number of classes with perception down, take it away from the druid. first, it further separates them from the rangers (the rangers are the hunters, take a level if thats what you want) and it has them rely on their animal companions more (what is it you see Nighteyes? is something hiding behind those boulders?)
remove from Barbarians as well, maybe Bards (they both just had LISTEN before, how does that mean that they get all of perception?)
but dont give the Fighter the elbow because "theres too many classes with perception"
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Trust me, most watchmen aren't going to be catching your average street thief sneaking around. Watchmen are paid to basically keep buildings from burning down. In security you don't keep an eye peeled at all times, you deter and funnel. Doors are locked, alarms are set, and the main entrance is under watch and likely well lit and free of clutter (i.e. no cover or concealment). I've been a security contractor for 10 years and I can tell you there's no way you can be in a constant state of alert. If you need advanced warning of intruders, especially at night get a dog (scent, low-light vision, and better Perception scores than an average human).
Fighters should not get Perception. The average fighter's got a helm on, has armor that makes a good amount of noise. Put the rogue or ranger on point, not your heavy weapon operator.
Sorry about that... so there's no chance that fighters would get it? I mean, they *do* get less skill points than the classes than the "sneaky" classes, so I do not think they would invest in it more than some points (i.e. enough not to be surprised in ever combat).
That's a really good point. One of the wonky things about 3e/3.5e is both the different numbers of skill points and the class skill/cross-class skill differentiation. It's hard to fiddle with both variables at once.
Having Perception on the fighter's class list doesn't mean they're better at it. Only if they spend their 2 points on that rather than Ride or whatnot. So I think it would be OK to open up the class skill list for them, it's not like they can invest in them all - you still have to choose between 'alert warrior,' 'agile warrior,' 'warrior that doesn't die upon exposure to the wilderness,' etc.