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From the SRD...
Wisdom
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings... If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom.
Charisma
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
Reading those two descriptions, Will just seems to be a better fit with Charisma than Wisdom. Wisdom is about judgment and insight, whereas Charisma is the power of your presence.
I wouldn't change anything about how Will works, just move it to Charisma. The classes with the good Will progression would still the get good Will progression and the classes with the poor Will progression would still get the poor Will progression.
So, what would this affect?
1) High Wisdom classes might be weakened because their Will save would no longer be based on their best score. Likewise, high Charisma classes would get a boost. Clerics and paladins need both so their Will saves wouldn't change much. Druids and rangers might see their Will saves go down. And bards and sorcerers would probably see theirs go up because it would now be based on their best ability score. Some rogues too.
2) Backwards Compatibility and Monsters - Progressions wouldn't change but a DM would have to subtract the Wisdom modifier from the Will save number in the stat block and add the Charisma modifier instead. Ability scores are usually included in the stat block so it would be a bit of a recalculation, but not much.
3) Charisma would be more important. Would Wisdom become a dump stat? I don't think so. The ability to cast divine spells would still be linked to Wisdom, as would really important skills like Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive and Survival. Craft could also be shifted to a Wisdom skill.
The nice thing is that it would clean up the overlap between Wisdom and Charisma. Wisdom would just be judgment and insight (I'd love to see it actually renamed "Insight.") and Charisma would be all about personal force.
I like your idea Mosaic. It would make charisma a much more important stat, and it makes more sense flavor wise.
2) Backwards Compatibility and Monsters - Progressions wouldn't change but a DM would have to subtract the Wisdom modifier from the Will save number in the stat block and add the Charisma modifier instead. Ability scores are usually included in the stat block so it would be a bit of a recalculation, but not much.
This is where I see a problem, though. This is a pretty big impact. Although the math involved is very compley, it means the GM has to change every statblock in an adventure. I think that really hurts backwards compatibility.
This seems to me something that would fit perfectly as an optional rule, but I would rather not see it in the core rules.
Wisdom is a "how you receive input" focused ability score. It's used when your mind needs to perceive incoming things, sort either data (intuition) or perceptions (listen, spot, etc).
Charisma is how well you influence others with your mind. Diplomacy, Intimidate, spell-like abilities on monsters, etc. It's about how well you can force your mindset onto others, either through social skills or outright magic.
Will saves are defensive. When something attacks your mind, you don't "attack back", you are reacting in response. Wisdom is reflective of how well you can respond to input, thus works with Will saves.
Now, as a feat choice.. someone who's trained to "instantly fight back with his mind" against attacks would be okay. But that's training, and would require a feat.
No different from Strength to Fortitude (which I think I've seen before), or Int to Initiative (which is definitely in core rules in a PrC, I'm sure of it).
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Not to fall back into the old school, where you had saves versus specific effects (poison, spells, petrification, wands, etc), but the WILL save does seem to encompass two different scenarios.
Wisdom-based WILL saves have to do with your mind processing information - essentially like SANITY checks in Call of Cthuluh,
but there are also situations that call for WILL saves that really amount to resolve or good-old-fashioned pig-headedness.
It makes more sense (at least to me) that the latter would be Charisma-based. After all, doggedly pressing forward when common-sense would say to retreat or stop doesn't exactly sound like a function of a high Wisdom score.
At this point, though, there's not a simple way to fix it and still be backwards-compatible.
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I agree with Kaisiu.
Strength = Charisma = Projection of power.
Constitution = Wisdom = Durability/Defence.
Dexterity = Intelligence = agility.
But that's just me.
Did you ever play Shadowrun?
Allowing for the fact the stats had slightly different names, that's how you worked out the stats for your alter-ego, when decking through the Information Superhighwebway...
I exactly do this in my D&DX.
While it's not that BWC, I changed the mental abilities to:
- Intelligence (unchanged)
- Awareness (Perception, Empathie, Intuition/Sixth-Sense)
- Psyche (Willpower, Force of Personality, Resolve)
Charisma has become a feat now, and all those interaction skills now use one of the new mental abilities:
Deception (INT) - Bluff, Forgery, Disguise
Diplomacy (AWA) - Diplomacy, Gather Info, Sense Motiv (some parts)
Dominance (PSY) - Intimidate, Interrogate, Command
That's the part I was objecting too...So how is that not exactly what calls for will saves?From the SRD...
[i]Wisdom
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower
If wisdom also affects perception, then think of the willpower aspect of it as mental clarity. Why is a high wisdom character more perceptive, they have more mental clarity about their place in the world about them (and the place of other people). That could, arguably, give them the strength of will to resist things that attack the will save.
I like the pairing of stats between passive defense and active assertion Strength and Con, Charisma and Wisdom.
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I exactly do this in my D&DX.
While it's not that BWC, I changed the mental abilities to:- Intelligence (unchanged)
- Awareness (Perception, Empathie, Intuition/Sixth-Sense)
- Psyche (Willpower, Force of Personality, Resolve)Charisma has become a feat now, and all those interaction skills now use one of the new mental abilities:
Deception (INT) - Bluff, Forgery, Disguise
Diplomacy (AWA) - Diplomacy, Gather Info, Sense Motiv (some parts)
Dominance (PSY) - Intimidate, Interrogate, Command
What are D&DX and BWC?
What is the Charisma feat used for and why is it not redundant with other three skills listed?
I really like the Awareness stat and that it includes Empathy. Interestingly enough, I just came to a similar conclusion, although I thought of Empathy as a broader skill that absorbed Sense Motive, kind of an interpersonal version of Perception. Here's the thread - it's long, but I'd be interested in your thoughts if you ever have time to read it. Thanks!
Well since you asked:
- I am working on an own update on 3.5 and right now I am calling this D&DX
- BWC: Backward Compatibility
- Charima is a general feat that represents this "little something" some folks possess. While every smart person can make good arguments, a charismatic person just presents it more appealing (You know what I mean)
Charisma grants a +1 bonus to all interaction skills (right now it's +1 and stackable, but maybe I change this... somehow)
I also thought about making Empathie some sort of skill (Sense Motiv + ?), but am not sure yet.
Right now, it's also a feat and enables sense motiv checks with your perception skill.