Since he's on the team now, I wanted to bring up a suggestion Monte once made to get rid of those bloated spell lists spell casters have to drag around with them their whole life.
His idea was to use multiple spell slots of the same level instead of one slot of a higher level to balance metamagic.
For instance, a maximized magic missile would not cost a 4th level spell slot, but four 1st level ones. I'm not sure whether he intended there to be any other limiting factor (like that you have to be able to cast 4th level spells before you can maximize a 1st level one), but I really like this rule.
Any chance this might be considered for the PFRPG?
Ugh, no. I think I hate this about as much as the regular metamagic, if not more. I'd much rather see the Unearthed Arcana methods for metamagic used. I think it was 3x/day, and the maximum spell level that could be affected was highest slot available minus metamagic spell level adjustment.
I wouldn't mind seeing some standard spells eliminated from the spell list and turned into metamagic feats, BTW.
Mass: Allows you to affect multiple targets. +3 levels
Delay: Can delay casting of spell 1-5 rounds. +4 levels
Chain: Strikes primary target + 1 target/level for half effect. +3 levels
Greater: Affects any creature instead of just humanoids (for spells like Charm [Person], Enlarge [Person], etc.).
Symbol: Allows spell to be inscribed as a permanent use object (perhaps better as an Item Creation feat?) +2 levels
Power Word: Removes save from spell, but has HP limit and stair-stepped effect. +5 levels (includes Holy Word, Word of Chaos, Dictum, etc.)
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I'd much rather see the Unearthed Arcana methods for metamagic used. I think it was 3x/day, and the maximum spell level that could be affected was highest slot available minus metamagic spell level adjustment.
Same here. FYI, here is some material on variant metamagic rules (I think from Unearthed Arcana)
Mass: Allows you to affect multiple targets. +3 levels
Delay: Can delay casting of spell 1-5 rounds. +4 levels
Chain: Strikes primary target + 1 target/level for half effect. +3 levels
Greater: Affects any creature instead of just humanoids (for spells like Charm [Person], Enlarge [Person], etc.).
Symbol: Allows spell to be inscribed as a permanent use object (perhaps better as an Item Creation feat?) +2 levels
Power Word: Removes save from spell, but has HP limit and stair-stepped effect. +5 levels (includes Holy Word, Word of Chaos, Dictum, etc.)
Oooooh ... I wouldn't mind seeing something along these lines sorted out. Seems like it could potentially be abused depending on what spells these could be applied to, but it would reduce the number of spell entries vs. how these spell variants are currently handled.
Ugh, no. I think I hate this about as much as the regular metamagic, if not more. I'd much rather see the Unearthed Arcana methods for metamagic used. I think it was 3x/day, and the maximum spell level that could be affected was highest slot available minus metamagic spell level adjustment.
I would love it if Paizo would take this approach. I can honestly say that I have never taken a Metamagic feat since the creation of 3.0. Too few feats and not enough "bang for the buck" in my opinion. The Sudden Metamagic feats were a step in the right direction but were too limited IMO.
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Mass: Allows you to affect multiple targets. +3 levels
[Chain: Strikes primary target + 1 target/level for half effect. +3 levels
Um, how would you adjudicate what can be chained and what can be massed? are masses area affect? cause as you have them written I can't see for the life of me why you would want to use chain instead of mass?
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His idea was to use multiple spell slots of the same level instead of one slot of a higher level to balance metamagic.
For instance, a maximized magic missile would not cost a 4th level spell slot, but four 1st level ones. I'm not sure whether he intended there to be any other limiting factor (like that you have to be able to cast 4th level spells before you can maximize a 1st level one), but I really like this rule.
Coolio. I can use this as a (future) house rule.
I'd go with an approach much like the Ultimate Magus's feature:
sacrifice spell slots when using a metamagic feat. This way you have the flexibility needed plus your full complement of spells per day.
Um, how would you adjudicate what can be chained and what can be massed? are masses area affect? cause as you have them written I can't see for the life of me why you would want to use chain instead of mass?Mass: Allows you to affect multiple targets. +3 levels
[Chain: Strikes primary target + 1 target/level for half effect. +3 levels
I have nothing specific, but my idea would be chaining would be limited to rays or lines that deal damage (scorching ray, lightning bolt, etc., maybe ray of enfeeblement). Mass would be for any spell that normally targets one creature (charm person/monster, cure light wounds, vampiric touch [ouch], etc.) and making it affect one target/level. Basically, stripping out things like mass charm monster, mass cure light wounds and the like and making "mass" into metamagic feat rather than taking up space in the PHB with "this spell works like XYZ, but affects 1 creature/level." And letting players get creative with what they can Mass/Power Word/Symbol/etc.
So, is the general consensus around here that spell casters need to be made *more* powerful?
So, is the general consensus around here that spell casters need to be made *more* powerful?
Not so much as a consensus that metamagic sucketh.
Well, the unfortunate downside of making metamagic better is that it will also make spell casters more powerful.
Regarding the sudden metamagic feats...they massively encourage the 15 minute adventuring day that most people think is a flaw in the system. Of course, the suggested rule (extra spell slot used per +level) does that too.
Perhaps a system could be implemented that addresses both of these things at the same time?
Such as....
+1 level metamagics cause you to lose access to that spell slot the following day.
+2 level metamagics cost you that spell slot plus another of first level or higher the following day.
+3 level cost that spell slot plus another of third level or higher
+4 level cost that spell slot plus a 5th+ level
etc
Note, the idea here is that there is NO negative side effect at the time of casting (spell casts at normal level with normal casting time)
The book keeping side of things probably makes this a non-starter....but any system that simply makes meta magics better is probably an error due to it's impact on overall spell caster power.
would this be an either/or suggestion or a replacement suggestion, if its to replace I'm against it, if either/or, I have no issue.
I can't speak for Monte, but I would go for either/or.
The elegance of this rule - and what the other variants mentioned lack - is that it cleans up the spell lists, especially of NPCs.
As a DM, whenever I turn a page during preparation and see an NPC spellcaster with a gazillion spells, I groan. 99% of the time the NPC isn't even going to use his lower level spells, but still I have to look up everything in advance just to make sure I don't play her sub-optimally.
Take all those 1st - 4th level cleric buffs for instance. I'd much rather run a 15th level cleric who has a list that at the bottom looks like this:
1 - quickened shield of faith
2 - quickened cure moderate wounds
3 - quickened protection from energy
4 - quickened divine power
than
1 - shield of faith, protection from evil, divine favor, bless, sanctuary
2 - bull's strength, cat's grace, boar's endurance, aid, resist energy
3 - magic circle vs evil, magic vestment, prayer, protection from energy (x2)
4 - death ward, divine power, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon, spell immunity
I see from the majority of the responses that my OP has been interpreted as trying to answer the question "How to fix metamagic?"
That wasn't my intention. Nor - if I recall correctly - was it Monte's. What the rule tries to do is find a way to condense the spell list, especially for NPCs. For an example see my above post.
I'll try to find his original blog entry and post it.
Regarding the 15-minute adventuring day, I currently have an 11th-level 'Boom-Mage' in a game I'm GMing.
He wanted an Evoker, so he's playing a Generalist (I'll get there in a sec) and maxed out his bonded item on a staff of Fire with the added powers of a Metamagic Rod of Empowering (Least, at 1.5x price for 'nonstandard slot').
So, we ran into a room with a pair of Lamia Clerics last week (we're playtesting RotRL, and up to Fortress of the Stone Giants), and he unleashed a truly horrible monster of a spell on me.
A Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Sculpted Spell, Sudden Maximized, Empowered Fireball. Which did 60hp + (1/2 x 10d6), twice, then again the round after, in four 10-ft cubes (instead of a 20ft-burst).
He added most of these effects for 'free'- Sudden Maximize, and Empower (from his bonded staff), then bumped in Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, and Sculpted Spell with his 5 free metamagic slots per day (from the Generalist's class ability).
I'm not entirely complaining, but this was a 1-spell kill for my poor Lamias, after which he went into one other room and announced "I'm out of spells. Anyone want a teleport back to Magnimar?"
This needs fixing. I'm not sure how. I appeal to the almighty Jason of Bulmahn to aid me in my fervent quest for game balance.
PS: I did get even with him, though. The kobold barbarian 'dropped' her Necklace of Fireballs, and he was the first to pick it up, greeting the nasty side of -76 hit points ungracefully.
Okay, I found the blog entry. The relevant passage is a bit hidden, so I'll just copy it here and put it in bold (if I'm violating intellectual property, please give me a day's warning before unleashing the dogs):
From Monte Cook's blog, April 17th 2008:
"I have a pile of notes somewhere for a high level play book that I never got around to writing. One of the concepts in there was adding in low level spells that you cannot cast until you are high level. Basically many of them would be designed so that they were permanent, but required the permanent sacrifice of a slot as well. These included buffs but also other minor at-will abilities or constant enhancements. Because at high level it stops mattering all that much if you can cast Melf's Acid Arrow when you've got maximized lightning bolts and whatnot. (With that in mind, metamagic probably should have involved combining spell slots of the same level rather than utilizing higher level slots, to cut down on the number of lower level spells to keep track of.) Taken to their ultimate conclusion, you'd do things like give up all your 1st level slots and get SR 10+level all the time. And so on."
Regarding the 15-minute adventuring day, I currently have an 11th-level 'Boom-Mage' in a game I'm GMing.
...A Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Sculpted Spell, Sudden Maximized, Empowered Fireball. Which did 60hp + (1/2 x 10d6), twice, then again the round after, in four 10-ft cubes (instead of a 20ft-burst).
He added most of these effects for 'free'- Sudden Maximize, and Empower (from his bonded staff), then bumped in Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, and Sculpted Spell with his 5 free metamagic slots per day (from the Generalist's class ability).
Personally, I would have limited his adding metamagic to limit it to a 6th level equivalent spell, even if the metamagics are "free" (final spell cost, not for each individual metamagic. A limit of 6th level spells since as an 11th level wizard he can cast up to 6th level spells) The above spell is what - a 13th level spell (chained +3, repeat +3, sculpted +1, sudden +0, empowered +3)? It may be totally against the current letter of the RAW, but I'd rather have that limit in place than that monstrosity of a spell being used.
As to the OP - even though you've explained the purpose, I still don't like it. It may simplify NPCs, but it down-powers them as well, moreso than I think the current metamagics do. I'd rather see metamagic overall be at least an equal tradeoff, right now I don't feel like they are but instead weaken characters - except as metamagic rods, whose free casting is too advantageous.
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As to the OP - even though you've explained the purpose, I still don't like it. It may simplify NPCs, but it down-powers them as well, moreso than I think the current metamagics do. I'd rather see metamagic overall be at least an equal tradeoff, right now I don't feel like they are but instead weaken characters
Um how on earth does the OPs suggestion weaken spellcasters? I mean if anything it makes them more powerful as they'll have more higher level spells to throw around and be easier to run because they have fewer low level spells to choose between. As long as it is kept as an either/ or I don't see how in any way this is a losing situation, rather a winning one.
Um how on earth does the OPs suggestion weaken spellcasters? I mean if anything it makes them more powerful as they'll have more higher level spells to throw around and be easier to run because they have fewer low level spells to choose between. As long as it is kept as an either/ or I don't see how in any way this is a losing situation, rather a winning one.
Whether it's higher level spell slots or same level spell slots gone, both are a weakening. You can't expect me to believe that casting one Maximized Magic Missile vs. having available Shield, Magic Missile, Grease and Burning Hands is a "fair trade-off".
Whether it's higher level spell slots or same level spell slots gone, both are a weakening. You can't expect me to believe that casting one Maximized Magic Missile vs. having available Shield, Magic Missile, Grease and Burning Hands is a "fair trade-off".
I have to completely agree with this. There is no way I would ever "waste" a feat on metamagic with those rules. As it is I've never spent a feat on metamagic yet, preferring to find prestige classes that would give them "free". Now, if spending a feat for Enlarge Spell allowed me to enlarge a spell 3x day (without requiring a higher level spell slot or multiple spell slots of the same level), then I might have to make a decision between it and other feats.
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We simplified the whole metamagic thing in our game by allowing you to apply the feat to one spell each day at its original spell slot level. You could apply the feat to a new spell each day.
But we also have house rules on how spellcasters can recharge their spells each day without resting. (Concentration does wonders.)
Last, in using action points, you can spend an action point to use a spell again that you just cast without using up another spell slot . . . and this applies to those with metamagic feats as well.
It's worked quite well for us.
I kind of like Metamagic the way it is . . . I've used a few metamagic spells and feats, especially quickened spells in the past. To address the OPs idea of trimming down the number of spells that characters have on their spell list at high level, I bounced this idea around for a bit last year and had this idea, though I've yet to give it a good playtest (used it for a few NPCs though).
Two spells of a given level can be combined into a spell slot of the next highest level.
In other words, two first level spells can be condensed into one second level spell. Two second level spells can be condensed into one third level spell, etc.
You cannot condense spells into the highest level spell you know (so, for example, if you are a 5th level wizard, you can't condense 2nd level spells into a 3rd level spell, but a 17th level wizard could condense all of his spells up to 7th level).
From the few NPCs that I used this with, they might have had one or at most two extra higher level spells come into play than they would have normally, and this is talking about having one more scorching ray instead of two shocking grasps, for example.
I kind of like Metamagic the way it is . . . I've used a few metamagic spells and feats, especially quickened spells in the past. To address the OPs idea of trimming down the number of spells that characters have on their spell list at high level, I bounced this idea around for a bit last year and had this idea, though I've yet to give it a good playtest (used it for a few NPCs though).
Two spells of a given level can be combined into a spell slot of the next highest level.
In other words, two first level spells can be condensed into one second level spell. Two second level spells can be condensed into one third level spell, etc.
You cannot condense spells into the highest level spell you know (so, for example, if you are a 5th level wizard, you can't condense 2nd level spells into a 3rd level spell, but a 17th level wizard could condense all of his spells up to 7th level).
From the few NPCs that I used this with, they might have had one or at most two extra higher level spells come into play than they would have normally, and this is talking about having one more scorching ray instead of two shocking grasps, for example.
This is another good idea and Arcana Evolved does just that, except that you need to give up three spells of a given level for one of the next highest level.
This is another good idea and Arcana Evolved does just that, except that you need to give up three spells of a given level for one of the next highest level.I kind of like Metamagic the way it is . . . I've used a few metamagic spells and feats, especially quickened spells in the past. To address the OPs idea of trimming down the number of spells that characters have on their spell list at high level, I bounced this idea around for a bit last year and had this idea, though I've yet to give it a good playtest (used it for a few NPCs though).
Two spells of a given level can be combined into a spell slot of the next highest level.
In other words, two first level spells can be condensed into one second level spell. Two second level spells can be condensed into one third level spell, etc.
You cannot condense spells into the highest level spell you know (so, for example, if you are a 5th level wizard, you can't condense 2nd level spells into a 3rd level spell, but a 17th level wizard could condense all of his spells up to 7th level).
From the few NPCs that I used this with, they might have had one or at most two extra higher level spells come into play than they would have normally, and this is talking about having one more scorching ray instead of two shocking grasps, for example.
Three's a bit iffy. I seem to remember the "two spells for one spell of a higher level" being some variant from 2E (probably Player's Option: Skill & Magic), and it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Seem to remember the reverse being true as well - you could break a 4th level spell into say, two 3rd level spells.
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Whether it's higher level spell slots or same level spell slots gone, both are a weakening. You can't expect me to believe that casting one Maximized Magic Missile vs. having available Shield, Magic Missile, Grease and Burning Hands is a "fair trade-off".
Um how on earth does the OPs suggestion weaken spellcasters? I mean if anything it makes them more powerful as they'll have more higher level spells to throw around and be easier to run because they have fewer low level spells to choose between. As long as it is kept as an either/ or I don't see how in any way this is a losing situation, rather a winning one.
So you're argument is that having the choice of doing metamagic one way or the other weakens them because they make a choice to use metamagic at all? Um that doesn't make any sense because you can still choose to have all the spells you listed, they aren't being forced to use the metamagic.
Well aren't they weaker because they have gone and spent a feat that could have been used for something else?
These boards are great - you guys really get the old wheels churning..
I like a lot of what several people have suggested, so now I'm thinking about playtesting an Amalgam of some of those suggestions:
1) A person can combine three spells into the next higher level one, up to half the caster's level (rounding down). That means a 15th level caster CAN'T do this to make an 8th level spell, but a 16th can. This may be done multiple times, combining multiple lower levels into yet higher levels.
2) A person can 'break apart' a spell level, effectively creating two slots of the next lower level - it takes more to go higher then it does to go lower. This may also be applied repeatedly, creating even lower spells as needed.
3) Feat: Arcane Manipulation
Taking this Feat allows the caster to create a higher level slot as normal, but only two spell slots are used of the next lower level. All other rules for creating spell slots still apply.
This allows for all the options, and splits the "3 slots/2 slots" question across a Feat - I think three is a bit much, and two is too over-powering, so this is a it of a compromise '2½' solution.
Please god DO NOT LISTEN to Monte when it comes to mechanics.
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Personally, I like what they have done in the alpha for Wizards and Metamagic. Essentially you get a certain number of Metamagic points per day (1 per 2 caster levels), and you can use them to apply metamagic to spells spontaneously. Any given metamagic feat applied to a spell costs as many points as the level adjustment of the feat. You can also prepare spells using the feats in the normal way without expending these points. So if I am a 9th level wizard with Quicken spell and I feel like I need to get off two Cones of Cold in one round for the BBEG battle, I can do that without effecting the casting time or level by expending 4 metamagic points (my total for the day at 9th level) to do it.
I have playtested the Alpha wizard extensively, and all the options the Metamagic "points" system that Wizards gain at 8th level is the funnest wrinkle on the Wizard I have ever played. Dropping a Maximized empowered Chain Lightning at 11th level is great times. It isn't unbalanced because you can only really pull out the big guns once or twice a day with this method. That said, having that silver bullet in certain battles makes a HUGE difference in the fun of playing a wizard. That and the "hand of the apprentice" ability are strokes of genius.
Hmmmmmm. I kind of like the idea mentioned of allowing metamagic feats to give the use of the feat 3/day for free.
Probably need to use a prerequisites to keep it under control. Like needing a +1 level meta before selecting a +2 etc.
