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While I had hoped Paizo would adopt something like a condition track, I understand that this won't be the case. Massive Damage Threshold was an option in D&D, IIRC. And it was a part of d20 Modern. Will we be seeing it, or something that reflects serious damage in the game?
Maybe a variant to massive damage v. death would be that any time the damage you take exceeds your threshold, you make a Fort Sv. v. Damage Dealt. Failure and you drop 1 negative level temporarily, i.e., until you rest or heal sufficiently to exceed yoru threshold. And it stacks.
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So far it looks like it has been left in, simply because we haven't seen anything that removes it. However, I suspect that massive damage is one of the most often house-ruled out(or forgotten) rules in the game.
By the time things are doing 50+ points of damage, either the damage itself is going to kill the person or the fort save is something that is only failed on a 1.
If they do include something along this line, I hope its a bit more variable then the original. Perhaps different amounts of damage counting as massive damage based on the type of HD you use, with the save being a sliding scale based on how much damage over that is done, so its not a static number.
-Tarlane
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If they do anything to it, I hope it's to streamline it and incorporate it into the current ruleset. I threw out Negative Levels, because that seems the most appropo equivalent . . . but even then, it's not accurate.
I'd say a failed MAS save results in -1 to Attacks, Skill Checks, and Saves only. (None of the other Negative Level effects.) This is how the Star Wars condition track works, except there's no save. If you receive damage beyond your threshold, you suffer - period. (I like that, but it's not in conjunction with the whole save formula. Star Wars uses static defenses instead of saves.)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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If they do include something along this line, I hope its a bit more variable then the original. Perhaps different amounts of damage counting as massive damage based on the type of HD you use, with the save being a sliding scale based on how much damage over that is done, so its not a static number.
I'd rather either see it be static, or only go up at large amounts (i.e. perhaps scaling up at 100, 150, etc). It should always be a fairly easy save to make.
In my experience, there are definitely critters with > 50 hp that can be taken out by a massive damage. In fact, some blackscale lizardfolk barbs needed a 5+ to make it saved my dwarf's hide once, since he managed to dispose of 3 of them that way (saving a 2nd or 3rd swing).
I have only played one game with massive damage and it lasted just for that session, me and my group just decided it had to go.
I would love to see a form of: holy crap that was a lot of damage, knocked the wind right out of me... Perhaps saying you suffer from being dazed,stunned, knocked out or fatigued depending on much damage you take from a single attack
The problem I see with this is that a level dependent chart would have to be made so that a character would know how much damage she would have to suffer in a single go to be forced to roll.
here goes my basic little attempt...
charecters____damage vs_ damage vs damage vs____damage vs
max HP___________dazed____fatigued__stunned_____knocked out
<30 _____________18 ________25_______28________30+
<40_____________ 24________30_______36________40+
<50 _____________30________ 38_______45________50+
by 10________Max*.6________max*.75________max*.9_____ max
Such a a chart allows for scaling as the party advances, the question becomes how to scale the DC of the save so that a it remains a factor in game play. My initial thought is to have a flat DC in an additional column so that an average fighter build would save 60% percent of the time. alternatively you could say it is damage delt but i see this is a problem at levels above 10 where the save DC would be out of scope.
PS i like this idea in that it makes fortitude a limelight save again, and not a measurement of a charecters alcohol tolerance.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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My group plays with the massive damage rules scaled for size (as per the DMG) and have no problems with it. We also play the 20, 20, confirm = kill rules. In both cases it only happens once in a while and it makes the game really fun. The Players love when they one shot a big nasty monster or a pesky foe goes down to system shock. It's also fun to watch them scramble if one of them goes down. Even though it can suck for a player to die (especially at lower levels) but my players are game enough to deal with it as long as they get the chance to use it aginst my monters.
I want massive damage that scales with HD, and I want to see Death and Dying (from Unearthed Arcana) instead of negative hit points.
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How about basing Massive Damage on 10 + Fortitude Save? It is simple, easy to remember, and would scale with a character's progression.
The main thing for me is that I want Massive Damage not to be a Save or Die scenario. I'd much rather have no save and a person's combat prowess simply begins to suffer.
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I want to see Death and Dying (from Unearthed Arcana) instead of negative hit points.
THIS.
For my homebrew, I use the death and dying rules from AE, combined with a different take on massive damage. My massive damage threshold is 25, and the save DC is 10 + 1 per 5 points of damage above 25 (so 50 damage would be DC 15, and so on).
A failed save drops you to the bottom of your dying threshold instead of killing you outright. You go down to negative hit points equal to your Constitution score, and begin bleeding out normally. That means that your friends have a round to try and save you, and you have your usual chance to stabilize (percent equal to your Constitution score in the AE rules). If you die after that, at least it was more chance than you had before.
Even if this doesn't get added in to Pathfinder, it's one of those house rules I'll be using anyway. Instant death effects are generally just too harsh in 3.5, but I like the idea of "big damage drops you in one shot" without necessarily being insta-kill.
Jeremy Puckett
I want to see Death and Dying (from Unearthed Arcana) instead of negative hit points.THIS.
For my homebrew, I use the death and dying rules from AE, combined with a different take on massive damage. My massive damage threshold is 25, and the save DC is 10 + 1 per 5 points of damage above 25 (so 50 damage would be DC 15, and so on).
A failed save drops you to the bottom of your dying threshold instead of killing you outright. You go down to negative hit points equal to your Constitution score, and begin bleeding out normally. That means that your friends have a round to try and save you, and you have your usual chance to stabilize (percent equal to your Constitution score in the AE rules). If you die after that, at least it was more chance than you had before.
Even if this doesn't get added in to Pathfinder, it's one of those house rules I'll be using anyway. Instant death effects are generally just too harsh in 3.5, but I like the idea of "big damage drops you in one shot" without necessarily being insta-kill.
Jeremy Puckett
Like a few others here I house rule that 'Instant Death' by spell or massive damage or whatever actually means unconscious and bleeding. Allows me as ref to not have to pull punches in encounters.
We did discuss having wounds instead (based on some earthdawn our group used to play), but we couldn't decide wether a negative level, or Con damage would be best to reflect that. Don't think it could / should be core but if PF is going to suggest optional rules, thats one i'd like to see thought about
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I want to see Death and Dying (from Unearthed Arcana) instead of negative hit points.THIS.
For my homebrew, I use the death and dying rules from AE, combined with a different take on massive damage. My massive damage threshold is 25, and the save DC is 10 + 1 per 5 points of damage above 25 (so 50 damage would be DC 15, and so on).
A failed save drops you to the bottom of your dying threshold instead of killing you outright. You go down to negative hit points equal to your Constitution score, and begin bleeding out normally. That means that your friends have a round to try and save you, and you have your usual chance to stabilize (percent equal to your Constitution score in the AE rules). If you die after that, at least it was more chance than you had before.
Even if this doesn't get added in to Pathfinder, it's one of those house rules I'll be using anyway. Instant death effects are generally just too harsh in 3.5, but I like the idea of "big damage drops you in one shot" without necessarily being insta-kill.
Jeremy Puckett
Like a few others here I house rule that 'Instant Death' by spell or massive damage or whatever actually means unconscious and bleeding. Allows me as ref to not have to pull punches in encounters.
We did discuss having wounds instead (based on some earthdawn our group used to play), but we couldn't decide wether a negative level, or Con damage would be best to reflect that. Don't think it could / should be core but if PF is going to suggest optional rules, thats one i'd like to see thought about
I have used a wound system (ala Earthdawn as well) at times as well. If you took CON dmg (threshold), you took a wound, which effectively was a -1 to all rolls until healed, NOT A negative level however. Any critical hit would also inflict a wound.
A wound system actually works well to define minions as well. A minion would only have 1 wound. So on average you'd only have to inflict 8-12 dmg to wound/drop a minion.
The maximum number of wounds before death was 1/2 CON
To heal a wound I used a Fort Save vs. CON. Allowing ALL wounds to be checked after a full nights rest. (a slight departure from Earthdawn)A healing spell that surpassed the wound threshold would heal wound as well. The Heal spell would heal all wounds.
A Simpler Wound system can also be done as a single point (or as critical multiplier 2-4 pts) of Ability damage. Which ability score determined either by the DM based upon the weapon. Or at random. Healing the wounds as normal ability damage.
Now what would be REALLY nasty is giving demons a skintwist ability that inflicts 7 wounds like the horrors in Earthdawn sometimes had!!!