I was working with my DM for a playtest of 12th level characters last night and we found Devastating Blow does not specifiy use with only two handed weapons. There is nothing to stop our dwarven waraxe and shield wielding dwarf from using it one handed. If that is the intend then nothing needs to be changed in the feat but if it was suppossed to be specific to two handed weapons only then calrifying verbage needs to be added.
Thanks,
Doug
I was just pointed to devestating blow, and would like to point out that it is... rather powerful. I mean it's powerful enough to defeat most opponenets in one attack with a high damage fighter.
Devestating blow + scythe = Wow, every round.
I also thought there would be a sudden upsurge in the sales of picks and scythes after seeing this feat. And I'm not talking about miners and farmers...
:)
Has anyone actually playtested it yet?
|
I don't think it's that powerful.
An 11th level nonhuman barbarian has 4 feats. Devastating Blow requires 3 feats (Backswing, Overhand Chop, Devastating Blow) for a single automatic critical and one attack per round.
It's a quite expensive and weak combo considering that the same barbarian can use the Backswing feat to get four attacks (and four chances at an automatic critical if he has the Mighty Swing rage power) with only two feats (Backswing and Overhand Chop).
Illustration
Barbarian: level 11
STR: 22 (boost at level 4 and 8)
STR with Greater rage: 28 (+ 9 bonus)
- Scythe attack with the Devastating Blow feat
Damage: (2d4 + 13) x 4
Max damage: 84
Min damage: 60
Avg damage: 72
- Greataxe with Backswing feat
Damage: 1d12 + 13/1d12 + 13/1d12 + 13/1d12 + 13
Max damage: 100
Min damage: 56
Avg damage: 78
I don't think it's that powerful.
An 11th level nonhuman barbarian has 4 feats.
Beg pardon? You get a feat at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11.
It's a quite expensive and weak combo considering that the same barbarian can use the Backswing feat to get four attacks (and four chances at an automatic critical if he has the Mighty Swing rage power) with only two feats (Backswing and Overhand Chop).
Out of those four attacks, one is somewhat less likely to hit and one is very much less likely to hit. And note that you only get four attacks if you make a full attack, whereas you can use Devastating Blow and move in the same round (since it's only a standard action).
|
|
Beg pardon? You get a feat at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11.I don't think it's that powerful.
An 11th level nonhuman barbarian has 4 feats.
My bad. I was still on the 3.5 feat acquisition rate.
It's a quite expensive and weak combo considering that the same barbarian can use the Backswing feat to get four attacks (and four chances at an automatic critical if he has the Mighty Swing rage power) with only two feats (Backswing and Overhand Chop).
Out of those four attacks, one is somewhat less likely to hit and one is very much less likely to hit. And note that you only get four attacks if you make a full attack, whereas you can use Devastating Blow and move in the same round (since it's only a standard action).
Indeed. However the attack bonus (and the AC hit) with a high STR bonus is going to be quite high anyway. I noticed an error in the damage calculation (fix in bold):
- Greataxe with Backswing feat
Attack bonus: 20/20/15/10
Max AC hit: 40/40/35/30
Average AC hit: 30/30/25/20
Damage: 1d12+13/1d12+4 (half STR bonus for the Backswing/1d12+13/1d12+13
Max damage: 91
Min damage: 47
Avg damage: 69
To be fair, you're probably under-rating the full attack; most barbarians would have a Shocking greataxe or some other extra damage enhancement that wouldn't get multiplied in the case of a critical hit.
But the point is it looks like you've already conceded that Overhand Chop and Backswing are good feats; why not take one more feat that makes your standard attack 4 times better?
Something's off with your math. EDIT: This has been fixed.
Scythe regular full attack
AC20 47.61Scythe with Backswing
AC20 47.641
This makes no sense. With Backswing you have an extra (slightly weaker) attack at your highest base modifier; how does that equate to +.031 damage?
Scythe with Devastating Blow
AC20 68.4+1 shocking scythe with Devastating Blow
AC20 83.125
A +1 shocking scythe should do about 4 + 3.5 = 7.5 damage more than the regular scythe on a critical hit; the shocking part isn't multiplied.
I noticed it right after posting. You posted too quickly :)
With backswing you only get the extra attack if your first attack hits. So if you only hit with your first attack 50% of the time, then you'll only hit on the backswing 25% of the time. As such it contributes less damage.
Right, but against AC 20 the chance of hitting with the first attack (and subsequently hitting with the Backswing) should be close to 100%. So why is the damage difference only 0.031 instead of ~9?
|
|
To be fair, you're probably under-rating the full attack; most barbarians would have a Shocking greataxe or some other extra damage enhancement that wouldn't get multiplied in the case of a critical hit.
I'm going for the "naked barbarian with a standard weapon" approach. :-)
But the point is it looks like you've already conceded that Overhand Chop and Backswing are good feats; why not take one more feat that makes your standard attack 4 times better?
Overhand Chop and Backswing are sweet feats. I'm just not too concerned about the damage potential of a single attack with Devastating Blow.
Overhand Chop and Backswing are sweet feats. I'm just not too concerned about the damage potential of a single attack with Devastating Blow.
Even when that single attack does more damage than four regular ones on average? Take a look at the numbers that Volsung posted.
My thinking is that a standard action attack that you could use every round shouldn't net you significantly more damage than a regular full attack could.
Limiting it to double damage seemed like a fair solution to me.
In particular, compare Devastating Blow to Deadly Stroke. Deadly Stroke requires 4 prerequisites (that are worse feats than Overhand Chop and Backswing) and does less damage -- and only works on stunned or flat-footed opponents! (Oh yeah, it does one point of Con damage, too. Whoo-hoo.)
The illustrations above don't take into account miss chance, and the chance of score a critical.The four Backswing attacks per round create an even higher damage potential thanks to the higher chance of landing a critical.
Your barbarian with a greataxe has a 5% (1 in 20) chance of scoring a 2x extra axe damage, so you can increase the damage number by about 10% for the likely-to-hit cases. That's still less than a single Devastating Blow.
If you have a keen axe or the Improved Critical feat, that's about a 20% increase in the likely-to-hit-cases.
|
|
You convinced me. :-)
Another fix would be to change "standard action" to "full round action" just like for Overhand Chop.
That would make Devastating Blow useful against high AC targets but it wouldn't be (ab)used to score a crit every round and make scythes the weapon of choice for the discerning barbarian.
|
I don't think limiting the damage to double is fair for a single round attack considering vital strike has a fair amount of damage potential which can be spread over different opponents with just a +11 BAB prerequisite.
a scythe doing base 2d4 x4 (8d4 = 32) vs a greatsword doing 4d6 x2 (8d6 = 48) with the potential to increase that to 12d6 on two successful crits is not too different considering the increased chance to miss on the greatsword.
Given a base strength score of 20 (+5) and a +1 flaming burst weapon the damage potential for each if every attack hits would be 32 for the scythe and 16 (32+2d6 on two successful crits) with the greatsword.
just because a feat favors one group of weapon doesn't make other weapons pointless, by that definition surely all fighters with improved crit should wield rapiers, scimitars or falchions no?
Wait, what? Greatswords do 2d6, not 4, so Devastating Blow with a greatsword does 4d6 (14 points on average), opposed to the scythes' 8d4 (20 points on average).
He's talking about the Vital Strike feat that doubles your weapon's base damage in exchange for sacrificing your lowest attack.
|
An example of a 20th level character isn't always the best way to show the potential of a feat, but I just wanted to point out the build and damage potential of my character with this feat at level 20. Obviously it's not quite so high at lower levels, but with this formula devastating blow does become the more potentially damaging ability that I can conceive.
My human Barbarian started with a strength of 20 and by reaching level 20 his strength will be raised to 24. With Mighty rage that becomes 32 and with an average belt of strength, say +4 that becomes 36.
Now with a scythe I'll have a bonus of 19 damage per hit and 76 on a critical. Add the average damage of the scythe on a critical and I'll have 18 more from weapon damage, and if the item is +3 another 12 on top of that. Now I'm looking at 106 damage.
Now here's where it gets crazy. With a strength of 36 I can pump 13 points into power attack. With a two handed weapon that's 26 extra damage regular, and 104 extra damage on this automatic critical. As a barbarian it's pretty easy to counter the negative to my attack bonus, especially as I only need to worry about one attack, buy using my surprise accuracy ability. Adding my class level to my attack roll.
So that leaves me doing 210 damage every around, I have +7 to my Attack bonus and it only costs me 10 rage points. Sure I can't go on forever doing this, but I can probably go on long enough to kill anything with enough hp to even warrant the strategy. This is also a strategy that's easy enough to incorporate at lower levels without losing too much except bonus' to your AB and A wee bit of damage.
Well there you have it. Now I personally admit I like this feat, I even like this strategy, but I also have to admit it's just a little bit over-powered. I think limiting it to x2 damage makes the most sense, balance wise. Though until that happens, my character will just have to run around with a bunch of disposable scythes on his back in case he faces something with a lot of hp.
Actually, would the barbarian somehow burn 4 additional feats (3 if his race is psionic), he could make the blow even more devestating. He'd simply have to take psionic meditation, psionic talent, psionic weapon and deep impact. That way he could use his swift action and rage points on the rage power that lets him add his barbarian levels on damage.
Also, a fighter might be better at this than the barbarian. Let's say he has also strength 28. That gives him a +13 on damage rolls. He also has weapon training, weapon specialty, greater weapon speciality and weapon mastery for the scythe, gaining an additional +8 on the damage roll for 2d4+21 on a normal attack. Power attacking would increase this damage by 18 points for a total of 2d4+39, 2d4+42 with a +3 weapon. Now, on a critical hit, he does quintuple damage, 235 on average. The barbarian using the damage boosting rage power would do 290 points of damage but his times per day would be limited. A fighter using deep impact could do this all day. And no, this is not an example of how overpowered psionics are. It just shows how devestating rules can by while taken out of context and combined with things they were not supposed to. A paladin might also try to have fun using devastating blow and smites, but he would pale in comparison to fighters and barbarians. Oh, and I like devastating blow as it is written. It just felt wrong that rogues were the best non-magic damage dealing class.
I don't like Devastating Blow as written, and I don't plan to let it get used in any game I run.
As has been said, there is no reason for anyone with this feat to use anything but a scythe as their weapon. This breaks the flavor of the game very badly.
It is much more powerful in the hands of NPCs than PCs. NPCs often have many more HPs than PCs, and can afford to lose 100 or more at a whack. It's also easy to see a party getting snuffed out entirely by a giant barbarian weilding a scythe and using DB once per round.
Unlike all of the feats it has as prerequisites, it doesn't require the use of a two-handed weapon.
It works with magical touch attacks. I particularly like it with Vampiric Touch. It's now a melee touch attack that automatically crits for up to 20d6 damage, no save. Who cares about the penalty to hit when targeting touch AC? Oh, and the caster gets the damage dealt as Temp HPs. Ouch. I know the casters probably don't have the necessary +11 BAB, but it's an easy thing to put this in a Ring of Spell Storing or to multiclass your way to +11 BAB pretty easily.
I propose one of the following two changes:
1) The attack deals double damage. Not crit damage, so it works on everything. This makes it useful against constructs, animated objects, elementals, and other non-crittable targets. You must wield a weapon in two hands to use this.
2) The attack penalty is based on the crit threat range of the weapon you use. Crit 18-20 = -3. Crit 19-20 = -6. Crit 20 = -9. This way, the weapons which crit more often will be the ones more commonly used with this feat. The scythe is a scary option, but not as effective as a scimitar or falchion.
-Scott