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My wife and I were gaming with our regular group last weekend, and toward the end of the session we started making characters for a 16th level game that one player was very enthusiastic towards. I made mention then that, although I like higher-level play, I am unsatisfied with the skill system at high level for the classes that currently get 2+Int mod per level. My wife then offered the following suggestion:
Why not give all the classes 8+ Int mod skill points per level, and bring back the x2 cost of cross-class skills?
I am going to be playtesting this idea next week at 16th level. Perhaps it will give the players too much, but I doubt it.
Why not give all the classes 8+ Int mod skill points per level, and bring back the x2 cost of cross-class skills?
Mostly because cross-class skills are a pain in generating and auditing multiclassed characters. A ranger 1/fighter 4/assassin 2/blackguard 1/dwarven defender 2 is much easier to generate and double-check at skills-cost-one-point-no-matter-what.
(The old-style cross-class ranks limits and 4x starting skills made it even worse, because you had to worry whether he took ranger first or fighter first when spending fighter skill points to raise Hide and Move Silently . . . )
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I wouldn't use the x4 starting skills limit, or cross-class rank limits. What would then be left is an expensive means for all classes to be experts at something normally outside their class focus, or they can master their class skills. This leaves the option for unusual skill choices open to PCs, without costing overly much (because of having 8 points to distribute instead of just 2, for example).
Auditing is only slightly more difficult with this build. The order in which they took the classes would not matter.
Auditing is only slightly more difficult with this build. The order in which they took the classes would not matter.
The order does matter.
Lets say i have a fighter2/rogue2/wizard4... so if i have 4 ranks invested in Stealth... did i (one for one) spend 2 while rogue and (two for one) 4 while other or did i spend 6 while other and 1 while rogue? Assuming the order is exactly as written.. i could have not spent any skill points on ranks until 8th level which would require me to have spent 8 skill points for the 4 ranks. So which is it... did i spend 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 skill points to get to the 4 ranks? Order matters if you use crossclass is 1/2.
I used to do that in AD&D 2nd edition.
I was also thinking about doing the same for 3.5, giving 6 points to everyone (except 8 for the rogue).
But for some reasons my players didn't agree.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I used to do that in AD&D 2nd edition.
I was also thinking about doing the same for 3.5, giving 6 points to everyone (except 8 for the rogue).
But for some reasons my players didn't agree.
If everyone gets more skill points than they "should," what is the benefit of a high intelligence? A wizard usually compensates for their low skill points with a high INT bonus required for the class. This is less true of fighters and sorcerers, but nonetheless, the skill system as written rewards players who have high INT with bonus points. Simply raising the bar for everyone is unfair to the fighter who specifically has a high INT to compensate for his 2/level skill progression. It's class balance to have some classes that are better at some things and less at others. Fighters get tons of feats, so why should they also get tons of skills?
As a matter of fact, i give 4 skill points as a minimum to the classes who officially get only 2.
But i am still tempted to give 6 to everybody.
I use skills quite a lot, often at high DCs. So i guess it's fair for me to give more skill points to my players' characters.
Auditing is only slightly more difficult with this build.
On the contrary, it's still much more difficult than in Alpha 2, and only slightly less difficult than it is in 3.5. You still have a situation where, say, a fighter 8/rogue 8 with 16 ranks in Move Silently could have spent anywhere from 16 to 32 skill points on the skill. How many did he actually spend? Unless you have level-by-level records, you don't know.
I use skills quite a lot, often at high DCs. So i guess it's fair for me to give more skill points to my players' characters.
We play a VERY skill-heavy game. No one enjoys it if everyone can do everything, however. 2/level is nice because then the cleric and the paladin actually need the rogue for something; they can't just throw him in jail and go on without him.
If the reason you want more skillpoints for some classes is so that they are more than a one dimensional character, you could do something like the following:
Everyone gets one extra skillpoint per level that can be put into any Craft, Profession or Knowledge skill of their choice. This is to represent a little outside adventuring training or background skill.
Everyone gets one extra skillpoint per level towards a skill in their favored class. This represents sort of a racial bonus that applies even if you aren't leveling up in your race's favored class.
This effectively gives two bonus skillpoints to everyone, however one is limited in use (craft, profession or knowledge), and the other may or may not be useful to your build, but racially dependent.
So a Dwarven Fighter could have 2 Fighter skillpoints, 1 more Fighter or Cleric skillpoint for his chosen class, and 1 craft, knowledge or profession skillpoint.
So he might have 2 fighter skillpoints from training, 1 cleric skillpoint because "clerics run in the family", and he's becoming a blacksmith on the side.
Why not give all the classes 8+ Int mod skill points per level, and bring back the x2 cost of cross-class skills?
Because that steals the Rogue skill monkey thunder. Consider the implications with a primary attribute Intelligence class like Psions and Wizards with that many base skill points and full casting.
Any PC can take a single level dip into Rogue if they want that many skill points in game.
IMO it would be better to use a mechanic comparable to the Jack of Trades feat.
My wife and I were gaming with our regular group last weekend, and toward the end of the session we started making characters for a 16th level game that one player was very enthusiastic towards. I made mention then that, although I like higher-level play, I am unsatisfied with the skill system at high level for the classes that currently get 2+Int mod per level. My wife then offered the following suggestion:
Why not give all the classes 8+ Int mod skill points per level, and bring back the x2 cost of cross-class skills?
Because that's a terrible idea.
(For one thing, eliminating cross-class skills was a very good thing. While I still prefer the Alpha 1 skill system, I'm beginning to like the Alpha 2 system. For another thing, it really nerfs the hell out of the high-skillpoint classes. That's just one of the "things" that the rogue does.)