I'm hoping for some official clarification on how slavery fits into the world of Golarion.
Here's what I've been able to find:
1) In the Gazeteer, only the nations of Andoran and Galt are specifically called out as despising and outlawing slavery.
2) Although the Coins district of Absalom (p.24) mentions the slave trade as "illicit," the "Slave Ships of the Inner Sea" sidebar (p.35) mentions halflings as a popular choice for slaves in Absalom. So either it's illegal (but practiced in secret), or it carries tarrifs which some people try to avoid by smuggling.
3) The same "Slave Ships of the Inner Sea" sidebar mentions Druma as secretly helping Andoran to oppose the slave trade.
4) There's no mention of slavery, one way or another, in the Magnimar article, but enough else implies a value system that shares some influences from Andoran, making me suspect slavery might be illegal in Magnimaran holdings.
5) The Guide to Korvosa has contradictory mentions of slavery - rumors that the temple of Asmodeus actively supports the slave trade (p.17) suggests it is illegal, as does the reference to the Cerulean Society's monopoly on smuggling including that of slaves (p.47); but then there are references to the slave girls in the king's harem (pp.36 and 40).
So here is my question: What should the people in various parts of Varisia think of slavery? Do the folk of Magnimar think it is apalling, or normal? What about Korvosans?
And beyond that, where else in the world is it considered accepted practice vs. an offense? Is slavery legal in Absalom, or not? Etc. Thanks for any insights you can share.
~wry smile~ Well, it was practiced in the United States, but then I got divorced... ~re-reads the post~ Oh! Wrong world! Sorry!
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Here's what I came up with to answer slavery in 'civilized' lands. Note: Melit is a crumbling empire I placed east of the Cinderlands; Dorchadas is east of the Bloodsworn Vale. In this character sketch, the NPC is having an expository flashback while imprisoned in a clandestine secure facility in Korvosa. The Pathfinder Society in my game is akin to the Millennium Group (I mentioned this in another thread), and this NPC is about to be invited by his captors to join...
What he had done, for a Knight of the Melit Empire, was unthinkable. Judged by a Knights Council and sentenced by the Queen's Own Lord Chief Justice, the ex-knight was stripped of his properties and lands, his wife sold to slave traders. Though slavery was illegal in the Empire, merchants from the South and the jungle land of Dorchadas would pay handsomely for Melit's fair-skinned, tow-haired women. An underground slave trade existed above the law, and the knighthood, feeling that nobles who had abandoned their country deserved to be abandoned as well, often used the traders to quietly dispose of more high-profile enemies of the state. Thus, women convicted of crimes against the state--as the knight's wife was, due not to her own efforts, but her husband's---were often funneled to the slavers of Dorchadas.
Creative Director
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One way to look at it... if the Gazetter lists a nation's alignment as any Good; slavery is illegal there for certain. That doesn't mean that slavery doesn't exist. Taking your points one by one:
1) Other nations certainly despise slavery. Kyonin, for one, would be very anti-slavery.
2) Slavery is illegal in Absalom, but Absalom's a huge city. I suspect that there's probably a lot of secret slavery going on there, along with some semi-legal indentured servitude type stuff.
3) yup.
4) In Varisia, there is no centralized government. Rule is sort of split between the three largest cities (Korvosa, Magnimar, and Riddleport), but even then they don't totally lord it over the smaller villages. Riddleport's the most lawless. Slavery exists there. Magnimar's the most free-spirited; slaver's illegal there and there's not even really an underground slave trade at all. Korvosa is the tricky one... see 5) below.
5) Slavery is indeed illegal in Korvosa. more to the point, PUBLIC slavery is illegal. There are certainly slaves in the temple of Asmodeus, and if there ARE slave girls in the castle harem, they're not called slaves even if they effectively ARE slaves. Slavery is legal in Cheliax, and Korvosa models much of its society on old Chelish values, but slavery never quite took off.
AND the question answer, therefore, is: Slavery is not something that the people of Varisia tolerate as a whole, but some of them dabble in the slave trade in secret. They just don't parade slaves in public.
Contributor
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I'm hoping for some official clarification on how slavery fits into the world of Golarion.
Having now developed all the nations for the hardcover, it's pretty clear to me that a list of places where slavery is forbidden would be shorter and easier to compile than one where it is practiced (even if the practitioners don't call it slavery). I think James's idea that most places labeled as "Good" probably don't practice slavery is a good one, but like he points out it's a generalization and not a rule.
So yeah, what James said, basically. :)
James and Mike, thanks - very helpful!
This actually changes my understanding of things a bit. I had been thinking that slavery was widespread and accepted, and that Andoran and Galt (and maybe Druma) were doing something rather shocking by labeling it as immoral. In other words, that the idea of slavery as "wrong" is brand-new in the past fifty years.
But now I'm under the impression that most "good" nations have frowned on it for some time (without necessarily going to great efforts to stamp it out elsewhere), and this would have included old Cheliax. These good nations might have used serfdom and/or indentured servitude (of criminals) to varying degrees, but wouldn't have been enslaving the people of lands they warred with, much less coming up with excuses to raid foreign lands for people to enslave. Now that evil is on the rise in many places (most notably Cheliax), slavery probably is too, hence the visibility of Andoran's aggressive anti-slavery stance.
~wry smile~ Well, it was practiced in the United States, but then I got divorced.
But I think Sharoth wins the thread... (chuckle)
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It does matter how good they are, because good nations wouldn't do either of those things.It doesnt matter how good they are:
1. If they have Serfs (as opposed to Free Farmers/Peasants), that is slavery.
2. If they take Royal Hostages to keep subgugated states in line, That is slavery.
Yet Paladins take life...Good nations do these things...because people rarely refer to their nation as evil. Evil is always the other guy.
Its like that Comedy show: Two Germans in SS uniforms. one turns to the other and says:
"I been thinking."
"What about?"
"I think we are the baddies."
"What do you mean?"
"You know: Its little things...Black Uniforms...Silver skulls on our Hats..."
...Royal Hostages to keep subgugated states in line...
Hey, that's another cool option! There are lots of story options for "royal hostage" characters - for example, the prince who is now exiled from his homeland because he violated the terms of his position as "guest" while he was hostage-swapped, and his father had to disown him to avoid war. (This specific example courtesy of David Weber's book, "The War God's Own.") And of course, the Eberron example where the Five Nations "foster" their royals on one another's courts as a surety against resumption of war.
So, are there any places we know about at this point (i.e. in the Gazeteer) that seem appropriate for having royal hostages, or the equivalent? With the collapse of the Chelaxian Empire, I'm having trouble thinking of any subject-states at the moment. Maybe it could be going on between some of the holdings in the River Kingdoms, or betweeen tribes in some of the barbaric lands? For the moment, it seems to me that it fits best in the less "civilized" societies.
Or maybe this sort of thing would be appropriate to one (or more) of the far east cultures?
<Goes off to think about this some more...>
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It doesnt matter how good they are:
1. If they have Serfs (as opposed to Free Farmers/Peasants), that is slavery.
2. If they take Royal Hostages to keep subgugated states in line, That is slavery.
Usually, your statements are so quantitative, yet this one speaks to the quality of being free vs. being a slave--maybe your emotions are clouding your ration?
I'm just joshing you, YD!
While the state of serfdom in the Middle Ages was about as bad as it could be without actually being a slave, I don't think you can really say serfs were slaves--with exceptions, they enjoyed free movement, the ability to acquire and collect earnings, to put forth representatives of their interests to the landowner (insert noble) of their area, per the Magna Carta.
Royal Hostages were never so popular as during the reign of Rome, both East and West. Their lives were not necessarily free, but they were far from slaves, enjoying the hospitality of the 'host' palatial estates, government services, education, etc. The Romans, in fact, called themselves 'Hosts' rather than captors, and many hostages left Rome, following the agreed upon time limit, extremely well-educated, healthy, and politically robust...and very Roman...
Today, we call these people... ambassadors.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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So, are there any places we know about at this point (i.e. in the Gazeteer) that seem appropriate for having royal hostages, or the equivalent? With the collapse of the Chelaxian Empire, I'm having trouble thinking of any subject-states at the moment. Maybe it could be going on between some of the holdings in the River Kingdoms, or betweeen tribes in some of the barbaric lands? For the moment, it seems to me that it fits best in the less "civilized" societies.
The individual baronies within Cheliax itself would be rich with this sort of thing as a purely domestic affair, while the more influential courts would likely participate in a more "international" version with nobles from the vassal states of Nidal and Isger.
There's also a reverse version of this going on with nobles who fled revolutions in Andoran and Galt and who must now be nesting in Chelish courts, wondering what the Hells (literally) they've gotten themselves into.
Plenty of opportunity for royal hostages all over the place, actually, but this is how it's done in Cheliax. There's probably some crossover with Cheliax and Korvosa, too.
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5) Slavery is indeed illegal in Korvosa. more to the point, PUBLIC slavery is illegal.
Not unlike what happens today in many Western nations who would most likely consider themselves Good. Illegal immigrants are frequently duped by smugglers and forced to live and work in appalling conditions until they can pay off their passage, which, like indentured servants of old, is never. Large Western cities are frequently the site of locked factories full of virtual slaves and the underground practice of sex slavery (typically of Easter European and Southeast Asian women) is frighteningly common. Several cases have come to light recently of wealthy immigrants who have sent home for domestic servant and kept these poor folk locked in and abused. Governments declare these practices illegal and might even make an effort to stop them, but slavery CAN exist in "Good" nations.
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5) Slavery is indeed illegal in Korvosa. more to the point, PUBLIC slavery is illegal.Not unlike what happens today in many Western nations who would most likely consider themselves Good. Illegal immigrants are frequently duped by smugglers and forced to live and work in appalling conditions until they can pay off their passage, which, like indentured servants of old, is never. Large Western cities are frequently the site of locked factories full of virtual slaves and the underground practice of sex slavery (typically of Easter European and Southeast Asian women) is frighteningly common. Several cases have come to light recently of wealthy immigrants who have sent home for domestic servant and kept these poor folk locked in and abused. Governments declare these practices illegal and might even make an effort to stop them, but slavery CAN exist in "Good" nations.
Indeed. I've recently read an article about modern day slavery. It said that there are more slaves in the world today (including the U.S.) than in the entire 400-year history of the Atlantic slave trade.
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Occasionally here in the U.S raids turn up slaves. In everything from factories, farms to sex businesses. We consider ourselves Good. It is illegal. It is still a reality.
I would say that illegal slavery exists in almost every land of Golarion, in one way or another. It just depends upon how deep you want to hide it. A few will openly legalize slavery (Cheliax), most will outlaw it though turn a blind eye to its existence (as long as the proper graft is paid) and few will persecute it to the utmost of their ability and still be amazed it exists.
Now a related question would be, how do non-human races view slavery?
For that matter where are the elven and dwarven homelands? Halflings and gnomes? Is there an Orcish nation or hobgoblin nation?
Ok here is one for you: The PCs take a Goblin alive during combat and that goblin is placed into village service and shackled to the mill to mill flour.
THis is slavery in a good nation. Thus slaughtering goblins is also evil under the rules of a good nation.
My bold. How does not slaughtering goblins follow from your model of slavery, can you help me?
Slavery does exist in modern times, I would place the 'good' moniker on how the society deals with it, rather than than whether individuals in the society practice it. In 'good' societies there are always 'bad' people, an alignment doesn't hold true across an entire culture. That's why we have politics ;). Most rational societies leagally and morally punish slavery when it comes to light (like the recent spate of slave-servants in several homes in the US). Also, definitions of slavery can vary.
England didn't have slavery after the 1820s, but they had an extensive servant class that while technically free, was hampered by lack of opportunity from achieving any other station. American slavery stemmed from a combination of dearth of labor and harsh field conditions that caused Europeans to drop like flies. African slaves were unfortunately more resistant to the climate, thus spuring their importation. It is interesting to note that before the invention of the cotton gin, making short-staple cotton economically viable as a bulk crop, that many small-scale planters actually pushed for illegalization of slavery as an unfair business practice carried on by the planters who could cultivate long-staple cotton in the coastal lowlands. After the cotton gin made this irrelevant there was a total 180 degree reversal in their political stance on the issue.
Slavery is always rooted (as are most human endeavors) in economics. America has an illegal immigrant issue today because we love cheap labor, and many enterprising folks around the world feel that working in hard conditions in America beats trying to survive in their own country. There is a sex slave industry because there will always be men willing to pay good money for services, and there will always be other men willing to 'manage' said service providers. China has a problem with their labor in that they wish to make cheap goods, and there is relatively little oversight in how this is accomplished, making abuses frequent. The examples go on and on.
So for slavery you must always ask, what is the economic motivation? Does slavery in a society conform to the American version of a reviled, easily-separated ethnic underclass, or the more cosmopolitan Roman version of slavery as a result of debt or capture in battle? (in ancient times some Greeks SOLD themselves into Roman slavery to advance themselves!). Does the definition of slavery include migrant workers? Or serfs who have few exercisable rights? Also servants? How many rights do they have? Do the workers in a society where the State is all-powerfull have slave status? I guess it depends on how you define it.
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Now a related question would be, how do non-human races view slavery?For that matter where are the elven and dwarven homelands? Halflings and gnomes? Is there an Orcish nation or hobgoblin nation?
IIRC:
Elves largely come from Kyonin, though there are plenty of scattered tribes. J.J. said they would definitely oppose slavery as well earlier in the thread.
Dwarves don't really have a surface nation. They have at least five well established city-states though.
I don't think Halflings or Gnomes have an entire nation, but there are smaller regions where they hold sway.
Orcs have Beltzen(Belzen?). I don't know how of if Hobgolbins would even fit in there.
IIRC, of course.
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to resurrect an old thread... as my comment seems to fit this thread rather than opening a new one.
I was listening to NPR yesterday and listened to a story about a new book called A Mercy by Noble Laureate Toni Morrison. The book is her effort "to remove race from slavery." Her story delves into a kind of slavery in the United States, an elsewhere, that is seldom described as slavery: Indentured Servitude. She seems to want to make a point that slavery crossed the color barrier in fact, if not in recognition.
This story on NPR made me think about indentured servitude in Golarion. Essentially slavery, indentured servitude was a much more acceptable form of slavery, even if the "servants" were treated little different from a slave. This would make me think that in many of the Good countries the most common form of slavery would be indentured servitude.
Thoughts, comments?
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Krome, your idea of indentured servitude in Golarion is interesting. I think indentured servitude, with its "contracts" for labor, would be the "it" thing to do in Cheliax. Devils love contracts! Unbreakable, eternal contracts that tantalize the undersigned with the possibiliy of future freedom...but that day is always deferred. They own your immortal soul! Muahahahaha!
Indenture would be quite common in the colonies; any Lawful country could practice it too, with Lawful Good-leaning nations being very strict about the terms and treatment of the indentured (with regular visits from government agents, checking up that the terms are being met fairly and intervening to prevent abuse).
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Indentured servitude as punishment for a crime in LG countries, again with strict rules as to how they could be used, humane working conditions, opportunities to become better people, etc. Think road crews.
I've also seen indentured servitude in our modern world. Here in LA the guys who stand on street corners selling fruit are often indentured to the smuggler who brought them into the US and are working to pay off their debt. And in the Philippines (and other countries I'm sure) it is common practice for teenagers to go live with wealthy relatives and work as house help, cooking, cleaning, caring for children, in exchange for high school and college tuition. It sucks, but unlike slavery, there is an end date known to both parties and there is ultimately some benefit for the servant as well as the "master." As such, it would probably be much more acceptable in lawful and good societies.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Random Thoughts:
- Indentured service was often under strict time limits (7 years) and either a punishment for criminals or an agreed-upon price in exchange for some other service.
- I can picture a kingdom where slavery is legal, perhaps even common, but slaves are afforded some legal rights. (I'm thinking about classical Rome and Hellenic Greek societies.)
- I can imagine someone, even in Galt, pledging herself to 10 years of service in exchange for being raised from the dead.
- Slavery is forbidden in the (CN) River Kingdoms.
- The need for sapient slaves is ameliorated by magic: animated dead, golems, unseen servants and elementals might do a better job.
- Historically, the Norse had thralls, slaves captured in viking raids. I'd assume the Linnorm lands follow suit.
- Economically, one race might enslave another when the servant race is better at something than their masters: dwarf slaves for underground work, orcs for heavy manual labor.
- Elves, dwarves, and gnomes have very long lives. Forced servitude for a decade might be considered a lighter sentence to them than to a human.
- If a geas spell is legal in a realm, I don't see as how limited slavery would be any worse.
For some reason I thought this thread was about some loopholes Lisa found in the work labor laws in Washington... I thought I figured out how they cranked out so much great stuff.
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I had thought that indentured servitude was also limited strictly to 3-7 years. But some quick internet research (yes I know how authoritative THAT is), has led me to realize that more often than not servitude would result in a lifelong debt. Additional debts would be accrued during servitude and the contract would be extended to account for these additional debts. Most often this resulted in a lifelong servitude. The primary difference I see between indentured servitude and slavery is that 1) status does not extend to offspring, 2) it was either voluntary or punishment for a crime.
I have had the idea of introducing it into my Rise of the Runelords game. A player was asking about hiring a Porter...
So, I think I may have a poor young man in Sandpoint, who has gotten into trouble repeatedly for petty theft and fights and being a nuisance. He is Varisian by birth, and most of "society and nobility" are of Cheliaxian descent. So, the authorities have decided poor young man is beyond the stocks and whipping and must be sold into indentured servitude so he learns a better life.
Father Tobyn will encourage the "Heroes" to purchase the poor young man's Indenture and teach him how to be a great hero like they are! He fears otherwise the Sczarni will buy him.
Something I also may add is that the Sczarni is a major buyer and seller of Indentures, but they will have the reputation as slavers.
Thus, slavery is introduced without there being slavery.
Also I figure that Sandpoint, being a thrall of Magnimar, Indentures will be frowned upon. During the sale there may be a few local women protesting. Maybe before the sale there will be some negative talk in the taverns.
The PCs, will be seen as saviors for the poor boy, though. Well, all except those influenced by Vinder, who HATES the PCs for one of them seducing his precious innocent daughter and running away when caught.
Ewwwww if I make the poor young man a poor young woman! I can have Vinder stir up all kinds of rumors... but that is just mean. Probably won't do that... probably...
Ewwwww if I make the poor young man a poor young woman! I can have Vinder stir up all kinds of rumors... but that is just mean. Probably won't do that... probably...
Do eeet! Doooo eeeet! :D
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Given that religion is often used as moral validation for the open practice of slavery, it would be interesting to know what the main gods of Golarion think about it. Is it as easy as saying as all good gods abhor it? Certainly Desna does, and probably Serenrae. I’m not so sure about the others though.
Edit: Interesting way to introduce an NPC Krome. I'm totally going to steal that!
What do you think the Church of Abadar, and by extension many of Magnimar's nobles, would think about indentured servitude? The Church of the First Vault seems a likely authority on all matters of interest and debt.
Random Thoughts:
Historically, the Norse had thralls, slaves captured in viking raids. I'd assume the Linnorm lands follow suit.
Was thinking exactly the same thing - as the Ulfen "raid and pillage" in true viking style, you'd presume that they too also took thralls/slaves from either foreign raids or civil warfare, or an individual might actually have been born a thrall [good character background]
BD [begrudging thrall to the fell jarl Taxmann]
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What do you think the Church of Abadar, and by extension many of Magnimar's nobles, would think about indentured servitude? The Church of the First Vault seems a likely authority on all matters of interest and debt.
The church of Abadar in Magnimar might be strongly anti-slavery, while the faith of Abadar in Qadira might be strongly pro-slavery. Worshippers of Cayden Cailean, on the other hand, might have very consistent views opposing slavery (and followers of Zon-Kuthon be consistently in favor of slavery), regardless of their particular 'branch of worship.'
Sarenrae's church is an oddball, in that it predominates in Qadira, which seems to be pretty far from a shining bastion of anti-slavery.
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Sarenrae's church is an oddball, in that it predominates in Qadira, which seems to be pretty far from a shining bastion of anti-slavery.
I was just about to post a thread about this. I've been wondering how the faith of Sarenrae is seen by those in power(particularly those who keep slavery going), and how the clergy in turn sees the practice of slavery which has so much support in their country.
The rather troubling description of Sedeq really forces one to wonder.
It's really ironic, considering that's where Sarenrae's faith kicked off. But maybe that's the thing: The presense maintained there is more out of neccessity to keep a vigil on the nearby Pit of Gormuz than anything else.
Then again, Sarenrae so far seems to be the good diety who has the most trouble reining in her followers. The Dawncult seemed a bit extreme, if I'm not attributing acts to them they didn't commit that is.
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Ahhh religion can get awfully interesting in regards to slavery. Just because a religion is Good does not mean they do not endorse slavery. Remember Jesus endorsed slavery...
So along the same lines, while I guess it is easier to assume a country noted as Good does not support slavery, that is overly simplistic.
The one and only religion I would say dos not support slavery is Cailyn's (sp?) as he seems opposed to any repressive regime and institution.
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Also, historically religions have sometimes applied their protetions to their followers. The commandment Thou shalt not kill was often interpreted as Thou shalt not kill ... Christians during the Crusades, and even then a whole lot of Orthodox Christians got killed for having the wrong faith.
A religious prohibition against slavery might only apply to the enslavement of others who follow the faith. Pagans and infidels might be fine. One could even imagine a case where their enslavement might be for their own good, to keep them from their misguided practices that ultimately endanger their souls. And maybe by being in such close proximity to right-thinking and right-believing folks, they might even become true believers and be released from bondage.
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A religious prohibition against slavery might only apply to the enslavement of others who follow the faith. Pagans and infidels might be fine. One could even imagine a case where their enslavement might be for their own good, to keep them from their misguided practices that ultimately endanger their souls. And maybe by being in such close proximity to right-thinking and right-believing folks, they might even become true believers and be released from bondage.
This was the traditional Islamic view, with slaves who convert being freed, at least, in theory. As with most such things, a slave-owner could argue that the slave didn't *really* want to sincerely convert and was just trying to get out of his current status, which could complicate matters.
I could see a very lawful (and not particularly good or evil) society enslaving the heathen, and requiring even the converts to 'work off their debt' to their former owners after conversion with a period of indentured servitude. A more evil-leaning society would tend to have 'periods of indentured servitude' that are no better than slavery, and indeed, perhaps even more stressful, and last a lifetime, and perhaps even with 'debts' that pass on to descendents! A more good-leaning society might have very strictly monitored periods of indentured servitude, with no surprise add-ons for 'extra debt,' perhaps with some blanket time, such as 1 month of servitude for every year that the person would have been expected to serve as a slave (with an age set at 50 or something, so that a 25 year old convert to Sarenaeism would have to work 25 months for his former owner, to pay off the value of his former slave-status).
As Sarenrae is LG, and trending towards LN in much of Qadira, it seems, the church might dress up moral issues in laws. A strict law enforcing how long a person can be a slave / servant would serve as an excuse for either side, with the good Clerics wringing their hands about their inability to do anything better (and many likely treating their own slaves with extra helpings of kindness, offering them tiny gifts on holidays as if they were servants and not 'property,' etc.), while the more evil inclined mercenary Qadirans would find their hands bound by these laws, unable to force people into a lifetime of enforced servitude through ruinous contracts, unfair financial shenanigans (charging a servant for room and board, for instance, and then adding years to their servitude as they fall further into debt) and deceptive practices (which would be absolutely the norm, in Cheliax!).
In the wrong places, where the laws are tightly in favor of the owner / contract-holder, the life of an indentured servant might be far more stressful than that of an actual slave. The slave has less to lose, no fear of losing his lowly status and no worries about the cost to feed and clothe and house him. Unless he lives in a society where he might be hauled off and fed to a Ghoul (Geb) or sacrificed on a bonfire to attending devils at a festival to Asmodeus (Cheliax), the slave's got a kind of 'job security' that an indentured servant may come to envy.
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So, something else that is interesting to me in regards to slavery...
In especially evil countries (I'm looking at YOU Cheliax!), could slave owners or contract owners claim especially significant debts that must be worked off BEYOND a slave's lifetime. It is not unheard of for someone to be animated after death... Just make it sure it is animation and does not involve the soul and you should be good to go...
I am quite sure this would not fly in Good countries or good deities, but the evil ones...
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So, something else that is interesting to me in regards to slavery...
In especially evil countries (I'm looking at YOU Cheliax!), could slave owners or contract owners claim especially significant debts that must be worked off BEYOND a slave's lifetime. It is not unheard of for someone to be animated after death... Just make it sure it is animation and does not involve the soul and you should be good to go...
I am quite sure this would not fly in Good countries or good deities, but the evil ones...
I'd ask Rob McCreary to be sure, but I'd bet 200 quatloo that this is *very much* the case in Geb.
"I swear my undying fealty, in this life and the next..."
In the case of Cheliax, with diabolism being all about the harvesting of souls, any sort of *sentient* undead would be strongly discouraged IMO (liches, ghosts, vampires), while the animation of mindless zombies and skeletons might be tacitly done, but kept out of sight, working turning mills and grindstones and pumping bellows and whatever in windowless rooms where nobody has to see them, as the Chelaxian nobility might be unapologetically evil, but they aren't tacky.
Smelly zombies, in particular, would be kept the hell (pun intended) from any public function or person of standing. But skeletons, perhaps clad in concealing decorative armor or hooded robes, might be used to wave large palm-frond fans to circulate air from room to room in some Paracountess' 'summer cottage,' or perform other repetitive tasks that don't involve any sort of interaction with her imperial snootiness. It might be a mark of status to be able to afford (and prominently display) actual living slaves for such menial tasks, although that runs the risk of faux pas if one of the disrespectful creatures says or does something impolitic and starts her guests a-gossiping about her slipping standards of decorum and the utter breakdown of discipline and respect among her staff...
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Should we be couching this discussion in as merely cultural? The churches aren't simply using scripture to inform their laws - they're dealing with Old Testatament style beings. Golarion's gods are perfectly capable of demonstrating their displeasure in spectacular ways.
You're presenting slavery as WWJD scenario, and I'm seeing pillars of flame striking down every first born Qadiran. Where does Serenrae draw the line?
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Should we be couching this discussion in as merely cultural? The churches aren't simply using scripture to inform their laws - they're dealing with Old Testatament style beings. Golarion's gods are perfectly capable of demonstrating their displeasure in spectacular ways.
You're presenting slavery as WWJD scenario, and I'm seeing pillars of flame striking down every first born Qadiran. Where does Serenrae draw the line?
Would Sarenrae be upholding her own LG alignment if she smote every inhabitant of every country that followed her who didn't meet her precise standards?
She might be following a much longer-term view, trying to bend more and more of Qadira (and the greater Kelish state) to the more 'good' interpretations of her faith and the less mercenary 'LN' interpretations, using carrots instead of sticks. Traditions die hard, and some smiting might be called for, in extreme cases (clergy who not only fail to be 'good,' but also fail to uphold the law, thus failing to meet the 'must be within one step of the goddess' sniff test), but if she, or any god really, just smites anyone who doesn't *exactly* match both their moral and ethical alignment, they are going to run out of fervent believers really quickly and be left with a few people half-heartedly propitiating her out of fear (as if she was a goddess of plague and misfortune, and not justice and glory!), with only raving fanatics who want to throw yet more doctrinally 'impure' heathens on the fire serving her with any real zeal. (And calling those sorts of burn-em-all-and-let-goddess-sort-em-out witch-hunters 'good,' or even 'lawful,' would be a stretch!)
"What? You're only *Neutral* Good? Die, heretic!"
Sarenrae may *wish* that all of her followers were Paladins of the heart, pillars of both ethical fairness and moral kindness, but she wouldn't be the success story that she is if she held her followers to the same standards to which she holds herself. Perhaps she regards the mortals who serve her as imperfect, but capable of being led along a better path, if only she has patience and doesn't burn them all for every disappointing setback...
Or, paraphrased from Robert Blake ('cause I don't remember the exact words), 'The difference between angels and men, is that angels defer judgement to God, and do not exact it upon each other.'
Maybe she's just not all smite-y at the moment. Maybe she'll get her smite on tomorrow. Ya never know. :)
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Gotta make a quick clarification here: Sarenrae is actually NG. Just to make sure we don't go too far off-road with the discussion. ;)
As for Sarenrae taking a long-term goal attitude, that's kind of what I thought might be going on, but it seemed to me to be more about Qadira's geographical importance, as in her keeping a strong presence around Rovagug's prison. Keeping that presense there could be so important that she has to put up with a lot of crap going on in her name.
But yeah, the slavery thing is a hard thing to reconcile, especially with Sedeq's description as "where slaves are sent to be broken". I get the feeling that the church of Sarenrae is seen mostly as a tool by the leadership there, and it could be a reason for many of her followers to get frustrated and go extremist(like joining the Dawncult).
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Where is the article on the Dawncult? Is it in the Campaign Setting book and I just missed it, or somewhere else?
I don't think they've had an article focusing on them specifically yet, but there have been mentions of them here and there in the Gazetteer and CS at least.
IIRC, they originated in Qadira, were one of the major players in spreading Sarenrae's faith across northern Garund, probably responsible for the assassination of the Keleshite ruler of Osirion that invaders had put in power, and had a hand in the huge holy war that tore Rahadoum a new one before that country took its ball home and told the gods they couldn't play there any more.
Looking through that again, it looks like they've worked against the establishment and worked within it as they've seen fit. It seems any government trying to use them to motivate the people is pretty much riding a tiger.
I want to say they started in Qadira and are now primarily based in Osirion, but I don't have the CS with me at the moment.
I could be way off on the details, just going off memory here.
I'm really looking forward to the SKR write-up for Sarenrae when the fourth AP rolls around.
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Ah yes, they are mentioned as participating in the Oath Wars in Rahadoum, but the overthrow of the Pharaoh Mendes in Osirion was orchestracted by "Quadiri agents," -- it seems the Cult of the Dawnflower was co-opted by the Osirians later on, and that the cult grew up in Osirion after being imported by the conquerors.
You are right about them being their own political entity, though. I can't wait to find out more when the religions book comes out...though I probably can't afford it, yet. Maybe I should pray to Abadar for some throwin'-around gp.